The History Book Club discussion

Discussion Topic:

We still do not know how the folks for the team were chosen?

Does anybody want to discuss any source material which would give us some insight into the background of the 12 men chosen?

Why was Hanns chosen? Personal skill sets and military training, native born German speaker, Jewish, personality traits, anger and his determination? Did he apply, did he volunteer or express interest in the job? Or was it a surprise to him? What are your thoughts on the selection process which seemed rushed?

We know this:

Hanns Alexander ended up being the interpreter for the new outfit called Number I War Crimes Investigation Team or I WCIT. Hanns became a "breaker".

While I was reading this weeks chapters I was reminded of the contrasts experienced several times by these two men.

pg 175 after Hanns was given his position with 1 WCIT "Beyond this, however, they were on their own. There would be no additional help:... They would have to make do, or requisition...from the local population"

Anyone remember how Rudolf was left to begin Auschwitz?

pg 199 after Rudolf and his family flee Germany "Hedwig and the children would have to sleep on the floor. Having lost their personal belongings during the hurried flight north, the only clothes...were the items they were wearing"

Are they mourning the stolen possessions they took from the dead? I'm not really sorry that their "flight was horrible"(pg 197)

A couple of comments on earlier posts:
I don't think Ann's behavior would be considered "pushy" to that generation. Consider what was expected of "dating" couples during the 1940s.

I can begin to understand a little(very little) of what Hanns may have felt upon seeing his homeland after 9 years. I moved from home for just 2 years and when I returned, I felt sorrow, detachment and loss. Now, amplify this x 1000 and we might get a glimpse. Have we experienced such destruction? Maybe in the aftermath of a tornado. What about the loss of conveniences like running water, food, or access to a car? I can tell you, only perhaps Mother Theresa would not be enraged by what they saw and experienced after returning home.

I think it was the same way - make it work and don't whine.

Understand how you feel Rebecca - I did feel sorry for the children.

Not sure of that - but I disagree on Ann - pretty pushy from my viewpoint and remember they were not engaged and he never indicated that they would be. He tried to let her down easy.

I sympathize with you about returning to your home and feeling the way you did - it must have been very difficult for you and for Hanns.

Real feelings and real anger are normal - I guess what we need to see is how these feeling were harnessed or not and how these feelings were channeled for good or not.

Thank you for your very thoughtful post Rebecca. I enjoyed reading your impressions.

I can't even begin to imagine the feeling Hanns must have had seeing the wasteland that his home had become. I noticed that same missing mention of sorrow that Jill did, but those last four short sentences in paragraph one on pg. 174 is telling. He skipped sorrow; going right from shock to rage, and finding a purpose within that rage. I do think he turned that rage into a positive...he could have easily become violent towards others or self-destructive to himself. Instead, he devoted himself to hunting those responsible for these heinous acts.

The story of the nurse and the little girl showed he kept his compassion despite all he had witnessed. I likes how Teri put it; “he at least felt like he could help someone.”

Hanns had the reality of the horrors that went on thrust upon him and adjusted about as well as could be expected, especially when considering some of the other paths I mentioned earlier that he could have taken (and the men he mentioned that had lost it). He knew things were bad, but until his trip to Belson, had kept his humor about things. I had a friend that went through something similar in Afghanistan; he saw and heard the reports, but yet was still pretty light about the whole thing. After 4 months of being there, that "switch" in him was flipped.

Ann seems to be very clingy, and although she is reaching out to Hanns’ family, there seem to be many details of their relationship that we have not had the privilege to read about for me to draw any conclusions. Hanns has her photo with him, so he does have feelings towards her.

Hoess went right back down that post WWI road again…meeting his superiors of a now ended war to loyally follow their wishes.

Cary I see your point - you make a lot of sense - your paragraph one.

Yes, he did extend himself and went out of his way to find the connection for the little girl - to reunite someone with their loved one.

And once the switch is flipped it is flipped - impossible to go back to what you were before - you now have a new normal.

Yes, I mentioned that - there were feelings or maybe she was his connection to his home. But she would drive me crazy.

Hoess - in what way are you talking about?

And, Cary, he could have turned that rage into drinking alcohol.

Rebecca, very good thoughts. We forget how devastated Europe was after the war. They were knocked down to a third world situation...just horrible.

Hanns' service prior to his eventual assignment is rather vague. He returned to mainland Europe via Normandy, but there really wan't much detail on his wartime service during the fighting part of the war. I don't recall any combat being mentioned ... How close was he to the fighting? Was he ever in danger? He certainly must have proven himself and earned trust from his superiors, especially considering he was a native German. He was presented throughout the book as dedicated, intelligent and rational. That, combined with his ability to speak fluent German and his understanding of the environment and culture make his being tapped for finding wanted Nazis quite logical.

I personally think the revenge-factor was also a reason ... Seeing the vile and enormous nature of the crimes committed, Hanns probably didn't keep his thoughts to himself and his superiors may have thought he would be highly motivated to find the criminals but grounded enough to not kill them on sight. To me, he seemed perfect for the assignment.

I agree, Dachokie, Hanns seems a good fit and already learned fast to move up to be an investigator.

For Rudolf, it is interesting that his interest in farming that brought him into SS, got him out of prison.

And into another one - an internal one and one at the end of his life.

Dachokie wrote: "Hanns' service prior to his eventual assignment is rather vague. He returned to mainland Europe via Normandy, but there really wan't much detail on his wartime service during the fighting part of ..."

Considering how the commanders and Brits might have been thinking after the utter destruction of their own country by bombing, etc. - I think that revenge probably was part of the criteria - and also given that the concentration camps were more than repulsive, repugnant and horrible on any level. They probably thought - what kind of human beings could ever be capable of any of this? And at the time - that was a good question - and even today (60 years later) it is still a good question now.

I was reading a news article this morning which amazed me and I thought about the life imprisonment choice which would have been the alternative for killing the Nazis after Nuremberg and I thought to myself would however some court actually release these folks or somehow would they have been released and then do the same things again.

Here is a good example of the latter fear:

Jordanian court acquits Al Qaeda-linked preacher of 1 set of terror charges

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/06/...

And this preacher was not even close to being as guilty of horrors to humanity as what Hoess, Goring, Hitler and others were. But this is the fear that some folks had.

The war crime conviction rate, let alone sentencing, was pathetic, save a few high profile cases. The actual number of cold-blooded killers that "got away with it" and we're able to live feely would undoubtably be shocking considering the scope of the crimes and the massive number of perps. The 2nd SS divisions trek to Normandy (Oradour sur Glane, for example) was littered with atrocities and only a handful of men even faced a trial.

Dacholie - very much understood.

Again personally I am not for capital punishment - but I am also for not letting these folks go for atrocities. It just amazes me that these things happened. At the very least they did focus their attention to the high profile cases.

One of the key attributes that they were looking for, that is mentioned in the book, is hatred for the enemy. I think in this section we really see that almost explode inside of Hanns. As he sees his homeland and what it has become, goes to try and find the various people they knew and see they are all dead or missing (including his Aunt) and visiting his dad's former practice and the places they lived and how they are rubble....Quite frankly, I think any attachment or sentiment that Hanns had for his former homeland and nation was reduced to rubble at that point also. Then having to listen to the accounts of the atrocities committed against not just fellow Jews, but fellow countrymen by fellow countrymen, is what made whatever it was in him snap and any attachment or sentiment he may have had wither and die.

If this had not happened, he would not have been able to go after these criminals and monsters and not be able to be hardened for the task. He is a changed man. If he believed every townsperson, or had sympathy or sentiment just because they shared a former nationality, he would have failed.
It's hard to see him change that way.

However- in some ways I think this is evidence of some compartmentalization that Thomas was arguing that Hoess did as well. That's partly why I think he kept Ann at a distance during this time. It's difficult to do what he felt he had to do and at the same time pursue love or marriage or express that. Perhaps he knew deep down, he had to do what he felt necessary first, and once he felt he was done he could then pursue love and life. Hide away your love and sentiment- compartmentalize if you will- so that you can be hard and allow the hate to guide you to complete your task.

Very insightful comments, John. War often destroys sentiment (sometimes forever) and that is what happened to Hanns.

I think it is important to remember Simon Wiesenthal here. He devoted his life to tracking down both the little and big in the Nazi Party. I haven't read ahead, so I don't know if he is referenced later. But he was in the War Crimes Unit.

Simon Wiesenthal

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_...

I'm playing catchup after a week at hockey camp for my kid and 2 weeks of crazy overtime. Sorry to say that I haven't yet had time to read everyone's comments, but I just read page 176. In what universe is "death, either by hanging or by shooting" considered adequate punishment for murdering almost half a million people? I personally can't conceive of a punishment severe enough for that. I'm simply horrified at the efficient, businesslike manner in which Rudolf has behaved. I think this book should be required reading for every high school student.

Robyn I can understand why you feel that way and many people feel as you do.

Glad that you are catching up.

@G - I wonder if you had to be Jewish to be in the War Crimes Unit.

@John - excellent post and comments - I really do think I see Hanns and Rudolf as bookends.

Bentley wrote: "Robyn I can understand why you feel that way and many people feel as you do.

Glad that you are catching up.

@G - I wonder if you had to be Jewish to be in the War Crimes Unit."

I tried to do a quick internet search to find the answer for this and was sadly inundated with more recent war atrocities. It seems we never learn.

I did find that both the UK and the US had their own WC investigation teams, but I saw nothing for the Soviets (this was a quick search, though) which I think is interesting.

G, I agree - thank you for trying to find out more. Maybe the Soviets did not want the beam of light shining on them. Hard to tell.

I may be misremembering some things I've read a bit, but I believe the Soviets pretty much dispensed with trials for the most part, and any of the higher ups they may have captured - killed them right on the spot. The hatred between the Soviets and Germans was visceral- Stalingrad was a failure for Hitler- but it was devastating to both sides. That and the POW camps were very fresh as they entered into Germany.

When US/UK forces entered into Germany from the west, some German soldiers made sure to surrender to them instead of falling to the Soviets, knowing they had a better shot of living and humane treatment. Interestingly, some of them remarked that now they should fight with the US/UK against the Soviets and assumed that's who their "common" enemy was. It was a very fluid and complex situation. Being in a Soviet POW camp or being captured by the Soviets was a frightening prospect for the average German soldier.

It is interesting to note that the Soviets made it into Berlin first- and that many of the higher ups fled to the west and south (similar to what Thomas writes in the section where Rudolph is fleeing) and that many of the most infamous leaders that didn't commit suicide, and that were captured and tried, were captured by the US/UK/French forces. There may have been a few that the Soviets reportedly captured and it was publicized I think, but I honestly can't remember who.

Bentley wrote: "Bryan wrote: "I also wonder how this affects Hanns in a spiritual way?

He was not a practicing Jew, and many Jews felt abandoned by God after the Holocaust. My first question was: did he feel clo..."

So I think that Hanns would have found it hard to identify with Germany as "his" but certainly, choose it or not "Jewish heritage" was his. I think this was a new understanding for all Jews globally after seeing how, in the middle of the 20th century, a "Christian" western European nation could just turn on them so viciously.

I think this new Jewish unity was channeled into the efforts to have a Jewish homeland in Israel. and I think that, globally, this Jewish state was supported by Jews and not in the least as they might have felt they might have to run there one day.

Hanns must have had some of these thoughts. There were literally no Jews left to come "home to" in Germany. The Brits had not given him a firm status.

The world if not turning their backs on the Jews (not everyone but mostly) had nearly all looked away for six years.

And only his brother might have really seen what happened of all his friends and family.

The world indeed looked away, Vince. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (WWI) was directed toward the establishment of a Jewish homeland and here we are in WWII and nothing has been done. So the world looked away even in the interwar years.

Robyn wrote: "I'm playing catchup after a week at hockey camp for my kid and 2 weeks of crazy overtime. Sorry to say that I haven't yet had time to read everyone's comments, but I just read page 176. In what uni..."

I think there is a difference between justice and punishment.

I think we have to be careful where we go with "adequate punishment" = is that a month on the rack before something else - is that crucifixion - is that boiling in oil?

I think that denial of future life and at the same time protecting society from these dirty dogs in the future is the best you can get as a civilized person or society.

Vince wrote: "Robyn wrote: "I'm playing catchup after a week at hockey camp for my kid and 2 weeks of crazy overtime. Sorry to say that I haven't yet had time to read everyone's comments, but I just read page 17..."

'Protecting society from these dirty dogs' - that's it. That is exactly it.

John wrote: "I may be misremembering some things I've read a bit, but I believe the Soviets pretty much dispensed with trials for the most part, and any of the higher ups they may have captured - killed them ri..."

Very true John and another excellent post.

Vince wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Bryan wrote: "I also wonder how this affects Hanns in a spiritual way?

He was not a practicing Jew, and many Jews felt abandoned by God after the Holocaust. My first question was:..."

Vince, yes I afraid so - many knew that something was going on and many looked the other way aside from some very brave souls and thankfully there were some of them.

Vince wrote: "Robyn wrote: "I'm playing catchup after a week at hockey camp for my kid and 2 weeks of crazy overtime. Sorry to say that I haven't yet had time to read everyone's comments, but I just read page 17..."

I have to agree with you Vince. I think the world is better off without them. I was surprised by how many just sort of went along with it and horrified at the ones who became leaders.

Bentley wrote: "Cary I see your point - you make a lot of sense - your paragraph one.

Yes, he did extend himself and went out of his way to find the connection for the little girl - to reunite someone with their ..."

With Hoess I was referring to his actions when WWI ended. He also went onwards to continue the war...fighting Allied troops after the armistice and looking to join up with comrades to fight the Russians. He could have simply left Germany with Hedwig and the kids...but he sought out his comrades to continue the fight.

Sorry for my delayed response...the past several days I have been getting "Goodreads is over capacity" messages whenever I tried to access this page or when logging in.

Yes, those relationships meant as much to him as his family.

I understand Cary - no worries.

I can't imagine everything Hans must have been feeling when he went to Belsen. The line that stood out to me was "He could understand the German-speaking prisoners, people with whom he shared a context and background. Their story could so easily have been his"(p174). As we have discussed in previous weeks, with one or two choices his fate was drastically different than it could have been. Other people have mentioned how he must have felt sorrow and rage. I wonder if there was relief that he had escaped that fate, and guilt for those feelings? If so, would that have contributed to his determination to punish those that committed these crimes?

I think it most likely would have spurred him to find the perpetrators. It is interesting, though, whether he felt guilty at all. I haven't really considered to what degree Hanns must have felt guilty about it.

No doubt Hanns was devastated when he saw his country. Nothing was as it was. I can only image how this tore his heart. The only home he knew, his family suffering losses. Can't even fathom his feelings.

So true, Melinda, I don't think he ever forgave the Nazis.