The History Book Club discussion

Welcome back.

I have to say that the litters are over the top Kathy - and Manco made some very good points about the Spaniards and that they were not Christian in any sense of the word.

Yes, I think Pizarro was just trying to enjoy his spoils and have some sort of normal simple existence - and out of the lot of the Pizarro brothers I do think he was the better one. The others to me were much much worse if that can even be imagined.

I also think that Pizarro (Francisco) was the brains of the outfit and was more temperate overall although he was still cunning and manipulative and very aggressive and yes could be quite cruel and do evil things.

I thought it odd that the author tried to paint a different picture of him even for a brief time in the book - but maybe he tried to give the reader a more balanced view.

Yes Kathy and Spain was not the only guilty party.

I, personally, didn't think Francisco was too awful and I appreciated a little humanity to his personality. he did some horrible things and was very callous at times. but his brothers were 10x worse in every possible way.

I can't believe manco inca forgot his own order of never trusting the Spanish, which led to his death. I guess he let his guard down.

Possibly Manco was convinced that they were gods or godlike because of their invincibility in battle - on 1000 pound beasts, with guns that killed in great numbers, and with a substance on their body which was impervious to the Inca weapons.

Interesting quote Kathy. It is almost as if Thucydides has propelled himself forward through history - descendants of man (Adam) are all alike.

Thucydides' concept of “…and of men we know, that by a necessary law of their nature they rule wherever they can” seems to me to be constant trend throughout history and one that remains present today. Those experiments with egalitarian living such as the Oneida Community in 1848 or the communist movements through the 1980s all ended in failure. There does seem be this inherent, natural tendency for man to rule over his fellow man. All too often this is violently and horrifically expressed as in the Spanish conquest of Peru, or the long list of historic invasions from the Vikings raiding and settling along the coast of England to the Germans in World War II. Democracy, however flawed, maybe is a way to mitigate or channel this tendency where all feel empowered. Additionally, the idea of a global commons, where over time borders lose their rigidity may represent a distant hope. The European Union is an example of how to move forward, but alas, it appears recently, over the last year or two, we are seeing a backlash in several national capitals to this move to eliminate national differences.

Steve

That is interesting Kathy - Vince and I were talking about violence and hate and I certainly would like a book which is indicative that violence is on the decline - hard to believe considering all of the shootings and hate crimes in the US and elsewhere I imagine.

Yes, it does. I am not as familiar with South American history as I probably should be - but I would hazard a guess considering the current climate that violence has been part of their existence.

I have to say that I enjoyed seeing the Pizarros finally getting their just deserts, although as Kathy and Bentley pointed out, Francisco seems to have been better than his brothers or even the Almagro alternatives for that matter.

MacQuarrie writes in such visual and dramatic way that I can see this book becoming the basis of a mini-series. Of course, the Pizarros would have to be the villains and the Incas the heroes (largely by default). That probably wouldn't play too well In Peru. I wonder what school children are taught about this part of history.

The Pizarros were absolutely brutal. I wonder how much that reflected the times they lived in and how much was due to their overwhelming ambition and personal cruely.

Most of the Pizarros were illiterate. Would an education have made them behave any better?

Kathy,
Thank you for bringingThe Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined to my attention.

We are exposed to so much murder and brutality in the media it would be nice to know that mankind has actually made some progress in this area. This one goes on my to-be-read list.

by Steven Pinker

MacQuarrie does a great job of raising the issue of whether selfish brutes always win in a historical account that does read like a movie or adventure novel. I found the brief discussion of philosophical debates about "what rights, if any, the natives in the New World should enjoy" (p. 366) interesting. Respect for other cultures had a voice, though apparently readily drowned out by what look like self-interested rationalizations.

Is a world / universe where we turn cheeks and cooperate feasible? Utopian experiments don't seem to have been too successful. In some corners of the world, though, there seems to be some progress and rule of law. We fight less with our neighbours (well, I suppose that depends...), among cities --- now the conflicts are at a national or transnational level. At least there are attempts at a forum for national discussion (UN) and a world court.

It's a big question. Are the kind and generous visionaries or saps? Is peaceful co-existence contingent on wealth? (though with the Pizarros, apparently some people are never sated).

I like your comments, Jim. I think this question, in particular, is important: Is peaceful co-existence contingent on wealth?

I think it is, and it is especially important that the wealth be shared by enough of the contenders to make them supporters of the status quo.

The Pizarros were all talented as military leaders. They also demonstrarted personal bravery.

Howver, they seemed to be singularly lacking in political skills. Things might have turned out very differently if Francisco had given Almagro his fair share of the loot. I say "fair" share because the Pizzaro expedition would not have been possible without Almagro's support. Instead, the Pizzaros devoted all their efforts to supporting their own small clan. They were both unsophisticated and narrowly focused on obtaining riches for themselves, as opposed to figuring out a way to keep what they had won.

Also, you are right to point out the significance of the debate about native rights. At least they had the discussion.

Kathy wrote: "I have truly thought that Pizarro was all evil, but this chapter begins portraying him as such a humble & normal person that has never lost his true beginnings. Here he has worked so hard to become..."

I think if you study every dictator (megalomaniac)that has had a place in history you will find a more gentle/refined side that exhibits itself if the quiet moments. Many of them were art lovers, painted, or otherwise showed an ability to be more pleasant.

Ann wrote: "Kathy,
Thank you for bringingThe Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined to my attention.

We are exposed to so much murder and brutality in the media it would be nic..."

Part of the problem with modern media is that ratings and profit rule what goes on the mainstream of information flow. Further complicating the issue is that there are plenty of whacked out sites on the internet that deal in creative writing and ultra right/left retoric. However, this, for me is the reason why reading books from various points of view, magazines from various viewpoints and solid well rounded internet sources. Too often the media makes a relatively small incident across the country seem like it affects me personally and that it is happening on every street corner when in reality it is not that common an occurrence and many of our city streets remain quite safe.