Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion

Ned (msg.76) - being born sinners with no hope of perfect righteousness is not the same as being born evil. There are those who were born to serve Satan from the beginning of their miserable lives. Jesus cannot reach or save them - these are the congenitally evil. ALL the rest of us are sinners and will remain so until we leave this earth. Our only hope is to accept the Resurrection story wholehearted and confess our sins by which we gain eternal life. Some sins may disappear and others probably will be toned down, but we never totally escape their grasp. Jesus' death and resurrection covers our iniquities so the Father cannot witness them and we can be allowed in His presence.

Rod wrote: "All mormon's and J.W.'s that I meet insist they love Jesus --- many even assume it's the same Jesus of historic Christianity. At first they know little. Are they saved? Do they then learn more and ..."

Rod:

How would you know which group of Christians are followers of "the same Jesus of historic Christianity"? Specifically, what is any Christian supposed to believe about Jesus Christ, in order for him to be "the same Jesus of historic Christianity"?


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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Rod wrote: "Jesus is very specific - yet I meet a lot of ignorant confused church goers. Are they not saved? Must they embrace the Trinity properly?"

Rod:

I earlier asked (in another thread, if I recall) for an explanation of who the "true Jesus," is according to most Christians. I notice in this thread that you made an issue of the Trinity. Is that part of your explanation of who the true Jesus is?


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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Alter2Ego wrote: " earlier asked (in another thread, if I recall) for an explanation of who the "true Jesus," is according to most Christians. I notice in this thread that you made an issue of the Trinity. Is that part of your explanation of who the true Jesus is?..."

While you are waiting for Rod to respond, why not tell us about YOUR Jesus? Use Scripture. Let us compare your doctrine with what the Bible ACTUALLY says.

Robert wrote: "Alter2Ego wrote: "Rod: I earlier asked (in another thread, if I recall) for an explanation of who the "true Jesus," is according to most Christians. I notice in this thread that you made an issue of the Trinity. Is that part of your explanation of who the true Jesus is?"

While you are waiting for Rod to respond, why not tell us about YOUR Jesus? Use Scripture. Let us compare your doctrine with what the Bible ACTUALLY says.

Robert:

You will find that I tend to not jump the gun in other people's threads by declaring my Christian beliefs before they can even answer questions that I ask them. Rod happens to be the OP of this thread. If you don't mind, I will wait to hear what he has to say before I proceed with asking him a few more questions.

This is a Bible discussion and not a contest. I hope you realize that.

In all Bible discussions, God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, must always be the authority. The Bible is your authority, I taken it?


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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Alter2Ego wrote: "Robert wrote: "Alter2Ego wrote: "Rod: I earlier asked (in another thread, if I recall) for an explanation of who the "true Jesus," is according to most Christians. I notice in this thread that you ..."

You certainly know how to handle the Sunday schoolers here ...!!

Well done.

You may find the love of Christ to be a very thin veneer in this forum.

For what it's worth (while I do consider that we are dealing with myth and make-believe when it comes to Jehovah/Yahweh and Christianity) I agree with what I see as the JW position of the Jesus character being secondary to Yahweh in the mythology.

If Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are "God", then we are not dealing with monotheism.

Hindus have 3,000,000 (or more) aspects of "God" ... Trinitarian Christians have 3.

If Hindus are not monotheists, then Trinitarian Christians aren't either.

Jews and Muslims are true monotheists.

Perhaps Jews and Muslims are the only ones who will avoid the flames of Hell that the God of Love has ready for those who get it wrong in the game of pretend known as religion ...?

Alter2Ego wrote: "In all Bible discussions, God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, must always be the authority. The Bible is your authority, I taken it? ..."

My response: Yes, the Bible IS the ULTIMATE authority for all spiritual truth. That is why I ASKED you for Scripture to tell us about your Jesus.

I love talking about Jesus, I am wondering why you hesitate?

Robert wrote: "Alter2Ego wrote: "In all Bible discussions, God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, must always be the authority. The Bible is your authority, I taken it? ..."

My response: Yes, the Bible IS the ULTIMATE authority for all spiritual truth. That is why I ASKED you for Scripture to tell us about your Jesus."

Robert:

Glad to hear that you accept the Judeo-Christian Bible as the ultimate authority for all spiritual truth. I will hold you to that when we begin discussing scripture.


______________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Robert wrote: "Yes, the Bible IS the ULTIMATE authority for all spiritual truth. That is why I ASKED you for Scripture to tell us about your Jesus."

Robert:

As I recall, I informed you previously that I am waiting for Rod to explain his position, since this is his thread and he was the one who stated in his OP: "many even assume it's the same Jesus of historic Christianity."

I then asked Rod as follows:

Rod: How would you know which group of Christians are followers of "the same Jesus of historic Christianity"? Specifically, what is any Christian supposed to believe about Jesus Christ, in order for him to be "the same Jesus of historic Christianity"?

It seems Rod has disappeared.


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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Robert wrote: I love talking about Jesus, I am wondering why you hesitate?


Robert:

Hesitate? Nonsense. What you are insisting on is that I show up here on this forum, newly arrived, and begin preaching to people--which I will not do.

I am not into monologue. I am all for dialogue. So what I will do is discuss, by asking people to elaborate on their statements, wait for them to respond, and then take the conversation from there based upon how they respond.

If Rod chooses to not respond to my questions, fine. In that case, I will simply move on to another thread in which the OP (whoever that might be) is interested in dialogue.


______________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Alter2Ego wrote: "Hesitate? Nonsense. What you are insisting on is that I show up here on this forum, newly arrived, and begin preaching to people--which I will not do. ..."

My response: Still NOT a word about your Jesus. Is he NOT worth talking about?

The TRUE Jesus of the Bible IS!

Oh well.

Alter2Ego wrote: "If Rod chooses to not respond to my questions, fine. In that case, I will simply move on to another thread in which the OP (whoever that might be) is interested in dialogue..."

My response: It is difficult to "dialogue" with someone who is HIDING their beliefs.

Tell us who your Jesus is... and let the conversation begin... or HIDE him... and no one knows who you are talking about.

Hey, I didn't know this post was active- fun, I'll have a look.

Wow Robert - you're starting to sound like ME. That's good and bad

When I say: historic Christianity... what I mean is the scriptures. Especially Paul and Peter.
I don't fully mean the church at large (definitely at small though).

The scriptures through the Holy Spirit is the core source.
Mormons and J.W.s do not have or trust this. They are also in no way connected to any of the historic church.

But none of that is my topic.

Rod wrote: "All mormon's and J.W.'s that I meet insist they love Jesus --- many even assume it's the same Jesus of historic Christianity. At first they know little. Are they saved? Do they then learn more and ..."

I've wrestled with questions like these for the longest time. Ultimately I conclude that it isn't a percentage of correct beliefs that saves, but whether the beliefs themselves are sufficient to portray Jesus accurately enough so that you can trust in Him. I think it's possible for Christians to not understand the Trinity properly at first. Or like my dad, who when he first became a Christian didn't even know Jesus was God as well as man. He just knew he needed Christ, and when he accepted Him, his life started to change which can't be attributed to anything but God. Then later he understood Jesus to be God and not just man.

Did I misunderstand the question at all?

Thanks Essy, you got right to the heart of the dilemma.

I too have had very confused and lazy views of Jesus ( over my 40 years being a Christian. Like your Dad).
Lately I've come to the conclusion that the hellhound are those who deny the Jesus of scriptures- rather than those who are confused or ignorant or growing.

Read a book recently where the Christian author said he'd rather go to hell than worship the God of the Calvinists.
How strange. I will always change my theology to match the living God and His Word. (We all make theological mistakes - or cultish mistakes) but to demand a God in our image and none other??? Scary.

Rod wrote: "Wow Robert - you're starting to sound like ME. That's good and bad"

I don't mind sounding like you when you are in agreement with the Bible. :-)

Hopefully the bible always trumps our stubborn pride.

Rod wrote: "Hopefully the bible always trumps our stubborn pride."

AMEN to that! :-)