Reading the Detectives discussion

Brina wrote: "Abbey I pointed out in my review that Christie tackles ageism head on. Miss Knight got on my nerves because clearly Miss M did not need her help or sympathy. I have to read Rineheart for a challeng..."

MIRROR was published 1961 and Christie was herself "elderly" by then (she was 70).When she started Marple Miss Jane was in her mid-70s (1930) and Christie was 40.

Mary Roberts Rinehart is fun, but you need to be cautious about picking reads, many if not most of hers are more "slightly mysterious Romance" rather than "a Mystery with romance". Actually, your best bet IMO is one of her earliest (she is always a good writer) CIRCULAR STAIRCASE, 1908. here's my review:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...
it's very old-fashioned melodrama but still entertaining, and Miss Rachel (aforementioned "older lady spinster" is a wonderful character.

Boy, I'm just a couple of days later to the discussion and I'm already on the second page of the comments!

Christie herself often quoted "believe six impossible things before breakfast." I'm not sure when breakfast occurred, but I agree that Marina should have recognized her first husband. Not recognizing an adult child when she has not seen her since she was a child (I hope you are following all the "shes") seems a bit more likely.

I agree, Mark! You'd also think the husband might have mentioned to Heather that the film star holding the fete was his first wife - and that she might possibly then have felt a bit less enthusiastic about going up to Marina as a thrilled fan!

The revelation that he's her first husband really does feel like an afterthought to give an extra twist.

Robin wrote: "Brina, do enjoy reading Excellent Women. You will find an excellent spinster to enjoy, apart from all the other characters. I laugh out loud when reading Pym's novels - oh dear, there I go again, t..."

Her writing is great fun as are her characters. I like that we keep bumping into them in her other books or hearing of them at least.

Robin wrote: "Yes, Lady Clementina, you are right about age ever changing, and it appears that the appellation ' middle age' these days suggests that those so described will live well over 100. It is great to me..."

Do share some of your papers/links. I'd love to read them.

I thought actresses needed a good memory, but this one seemed to forget everyone she had ever known - including her adoptive child and ex husband... I know this is a novel, but imagine how hurtful that would be for the adopted child. I really think Christie, so often hurt herself, understood those feelings and emotions so well.

The way she sent the adopted children away in the first place would be very hurtful too. Our other current read, The Annam Jewel, also sees an adopted child losing out when an adoptive mother has a baby (I don't think this is a spoiler), but at least in that case the mother continues to love them both!

Yes, that is a good point, Judy. You are right. Again, the way the child was adopted in The Annam Jewel just shows how easy it was then. I think now the rules are so difficult that I know at least two couples who gave up during the process.

In a number of Christie's books, she seemed to slight adoptive children. Here, but also Ordeal by Innocence, Cat Among the Pigeons and others, which are eluding my memory at this point.

Do you think it is Christie though, or a reflection of the times? That the ease of adoption and the way film stars were shown adopting children on their travels (the way pop singers and actresses are still shown - Madonna, etc) suggests they are not serious about what they do.

Lady Clementina wrote: "Robin wrote: "Yes, Lady Clementina, you are right about age ever changing, and it appears that the appellation ' middle age' these days suggests that those so described will live well over 100. It ..."

There is a Barbara Pym site under the North American branch which lists papers that have been given at BP Conferences, as well as reprinting some. Some of my papers are amongst those. you might also enjoy reading the others. I'll try and find other relevant links, but can't immediately recall where 'Comic Rapiers' was published.

In relation to adopted children, Christie's seeming negative approach is at odds with her concerns that her daughter was an only child. On the other hand, it is possible that the relationship was not really positive, with the child evidently saying to AC that it was her that Archie (the errant first husband) did not like, not his daughter. Perceptive but hardly kind! On the other hand, Susan's comment is very perceptive - is it possible that Christie was making a point about such adoptions and the superficiality of some parent/child relationships? I'll have to re-read some of those novels and think about it.

The thing that struck me in some of these situations is that the adoptive child (and sometime others) say things like "well, she's not my real Mother." Clearly Marina had very little role in the lives of her adoptive children, but what about Maureen Summerhayes and Robin Upward in Mrs. McGinty, or the six children in Ordeal by Innocence? (Sorry, if some of you are not familiar with these Christie novels.)

The Ordeal by Innocence children had varying responses to their adoption, I think? I read it years ago, but Tina (I think) was so pleased to be warm, loved and comfortable. In comparison a young boy from a poor area was so distressed, thinking longingly of chips for dinner instead of the healthy meals provided by his adoptive parents. He longed for the comradeship of the streets, which in his mind was so much happier than what he saw as a sterile life in his adoptive home. Was Christie suggesting that middle class values (although they were hers) are not always the only ones that should count? That there is value in a range of lifestyles? That for some children adoption can be positive; for others a terrible alternative to a life they know?

Just finished. I agree the first husband thing was improbable and unnecessary. You didn't really need a red herring at that point. This was the first time I've read this, and enjoyed it. I was disappointed that I figured out the villain. Luckily, not until near the end...about the time the word chicken pox was introduced.

Really like how Christie has made Marple age keeping her faculties and still solving mysteries. Especially enjoyed how the mental challenge of the mystery helps Marple to feel better. Makes me wonder how many elderly begin to fail out of sheer boredom.

Deborah wrote: "Especially enjoyed how the mental challenge of the mystery helps Marple to feel better. Makes me wonder how many elderly begin to fail out of sheer boredom."

oh, yes - TONS of psych research done re. this. Generally well-accepted in sociology, healthcare etc. circles that the better a social support system anyone has, generally they live longer, healthier (both mentally, emotionally, AND physically) - and happier - lives. And those social connections matter even more with elders, impacting physical health and possible decline markedly.

Some really interesting views on both adoption and the elderly. I think adoption is much more difficult for the parents now, but there is a good reason for this - at least judging by this novel. It does seem that just popping out to be benevolent at the local children's home and possibly coming back with a very mis-matched child (on either side) is a possible disaster. Much better to make sure both the child is comfortable with the match - firstly - and that the parents are really committed. Perhaps the adoption process is like the pain of childbirth and bonds you?

On the parenting thing, my own view about Christie (informed by a lot of biographies, so not really mine!) is that she had an incredibly close relationship with her own mother (and her father, until he died) and as the youngest of three children who was constantly protected and also fussed over by all the servants and by her grandparents, she became very accustomed to being the looked after one. By contrast, becoming a mother and having to look after someone else perhaps did not suit her so much. She was certainly very quick to abandon Rosalind for a year of travelling when she was two years old and I wonder whether their relationship was ever the same after that. (It also sounds as though they may both have blamed each other for Archie leaving.)

I therefore wonder if AC may have felt uncomfortable about her lack of maternal instincts and that this may have come out in her frequent portrayals of mothers as monstrous egos (eg Appointment With Death, the terrifying mother in the séance short story). Her treatment of adoptive parents as casual, thoughtless and sometimes misguided may also be a way in which she sought to demonstrate to herself that choosing to parent might not always be done for the right reasons or work out well.

In support of my theory, I can't think of very many positive mother figures in AC. Mrs Allerton in Death On The Nile would be one. The mother in the short story about Lord Listerdale is another. Perhaps Judith in Halloween Party. She's also strangely unsympathetic to the mothers (and fathers, to be fair) of dead children, eg in Dead Man's Folly.

Annabel wrote: "On the parenting thing, my own view about Christie (informed by a lot of biographies, so not really mine!) is that she had an incredibly close relationship with her own mother (and her father, unti..."

I think this is a really perceptive comment on AC and children.

Annabel wrote: "On the parenting thing... I can't think of very many positive mother figures in AC."

Tuppence Beresford, and their twins, although we don't get to see them exactly, and not at all when children - the first we hear at end of PARTNERS IN CRIME is that she's pregnant, and in the next novel (N OR M? approx only 14-15 years later ~1943, so NOT true to elapsed time) her son and daughter are mid-20s and "working in the War effort". But it's obvious that the Beresfords are loving "easy-going" parents, probably the epitome of what Christie thought a parent *ought* to be. One of the ongoing jokes in the novel is their children's attempt to keep "the old dears" out of trouble. -grin-

I haven't read, or don't remember reading... the late 1960s Beresford book, is it ELEPHANTS or ENDLESS NIGHT? Or POSTERN OF FATE? anyway, it's 25 years later, T&T are about seventy and if they are mentioned the twins would be around fifty.

But, yes, yes, YES!! One of THE best characterizations Christie ever did was of "Mrs Boynton" in APPOINTMENT WITH DEATH, a superb rendering of a truly evil personality, who obtained so much joy out of ensuring others' abject misery.

Heck, after about twenty pages *I* was ready to murder her myself! With whatever-the-bleep came handy!!

Robin wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "Robin wrote: "Yes, Lady Clementina, you are right about age ever changing, and it appears that the appellation ' middle age' these days suggests that those so described will..."

I'll have a look, thanks :)

Abbey wrote: "Annabel wrote: "On the parenting thing... I can't think of very many positive mother figures in AC."

Tuppence Beresford, and their twins, although we don't get to see them exactly, and not at all ..."

Postern of Fate is the last one- I didn't quite like it the first time around but appreciated it more after reading the autobio- there's a lot of memories in there of her childhood home, books, etc...

I didn't like it at all. But now you have mentioned these connections I'll read it with an open mind. Thank you.

Robin wrote: "I didn't like it at all. But now you have mentioned these connections I'll read it with an open mind. Thank you."

I wouldn't say I liked the mystery elements very much even after but the other little things made sense. So one can say I appreciated it better.

By the way, I managed to find one of your papers. Have downloaded it but will probably get to read it only later in the month. Have a pretty busy couple of weeks ahead of me.

Lady Clementina wrote: "Robin wrote: "I didn't like it at all. But now you have mentioned these connections I'll read it with an open mind. Thank you."

I wouldn't say I liked the mystery elements very much even after but..."
Thank you for finding the paper. There should be several on the BP site, but possibly they renew them over time and some drop off. There are some short pieces on the Women's History Network blog too. I'll find the dates. I hope this isn't advertising but these are such minor papers I think it should be all right. l

We get a glimpse of how Miss M's detective skills are always working when she warns the young woman she runs into on the development that her boyfriend isn't the right one because of the incident with the window. A bit like Holmes solving other cases on the go!

And also, we get (possibly) the first indication that Christie is injecting what would be seen as a feminist issue in one of today's novels. That is, domestic violence , although in this case the emphasis is on possible murder 'by default' perhaps?

I loved that little aside with the young couple and was actually a bit surprised the young woman took her advice instead of just thinking she was a nosy old woman.

That was interesting. I did wonder whether Miss Marple herself thought that she saw murder - or the possibility of murder - everywhere though. It seemed a little unlikely, but was deftly done.

The domestic violence/murder angle hadn't struck me but now I can see it - and it was nice to hear a mention later on that her advice was taken, though I agree this seems quite unlikely!

I agree with earlier posters about the introduction of the ex-husband without any previous hints that that would be the case. I am glad at least that neither he nor the adopted daughter turned out to be the culprit.
I have a different spin on the purpose of that story point though, not having read the other books referenced with a similar device. To me, its reflective of how disposable people are to Marina; there are multiple references to how she is happy in a time or place for a short while, but then becomes bored, disillusioned, etc. and moves on to something else. Clearly this refers to not only homes or professional projects, but also to the people in her life. Its not that they look the same, its that they are no longer relevant to her, and therefore become in a way invisible. Recall the passage where she says she often goes into autopilot when dealing with fans and other sycophants. Although there are pitiable and tragic elements to the Marina character, I think this is one element of her personality that most people wouldn't find relatable.
I listened to the audiobook version (read by Emilia Fox) as my print copy didn't arrive in time, and I was quite moved by her reading of Margot's revelation/confession to Craddock. You could hear the pain and bitterness in her voice. It was quite moving, and has stuck with me weeks later.

Tara wrote: " Its not that they look the same, its that they are no longer relevant to her, and therefore become in a way invisible. ..."
That makes sense to me- good point. She is also the kind that would want to completely blank out what she no longer finds relevant or what is no longer a pleasant experience in her life which seems to include pretty much all that happened in the past since she isn't pleased with anything for too long.

Tara, it's great that you enjoyed the audio version. I think you are absolutely right about Marina - she also saw everything with herself as the centre, and everyone else revolving around her, so they were mere satellites to her star and more disposable.

I love all books with Miss Marple, but this has always been my least loved Marple book. The plot was good as far as the "why" the murders took place. Miss Marple and the movie industry are just not a winning combination for me.

I'm catching up on the series. I enjoyed it, but it is not my favourite so far. There are some elements which seem a bit far-fetched. Thanks so much for the great link in the first post which provides the background to the story, fascinating.

Good to hear you found the link helpful, Carolien. I never knew the background before, so I also found it fascinating.