Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

" I'm surprised to see no mention here of three of Heyer's best books: A Civil Contract, The Spanish Bride and An Infamous Army. The first is a look at a marriage of convenience (and my favorite of all her books); the second a fictional account of (later) General Harry Smith during his time in Spain -- I need a map to follow the various parts of the campaign; and the last centers around the Battle of Waterloo and includes characters from A Regency Buck and The Devil's Cub (briefly, though a granddaughter is a more important character).
I have been reading Heyer's novels for many years -- so far back in fact that I had to wait to buy them as they were first published in paperback! I have read most of them many times and still reread my favorites from time to time.
I read newer Regency novels too but find many of them too derivative to be interesting and often with wrong details! My current peeve has to do with the heroes drinking whiskey which was not a Regency tipple in England. I expect claret, madeira and brandy to be imbibed! Oh yes. also ratafia. Champagne during the Napoleonic Wars would have had to have been smuggled and I'm not sure how bottles would have fared ...

Be that as it may, I do envy those of you who have yet to become acquainted with Venetia, The Unknown Ajax and many others.

I second your last sentence wholeheartedly Jacquie - and I'm with you too on seeing Civil Contract as one of GH's very best . There is quite long discussion on the Almacks site on the demographics of who likes or dislikes ACC and it seems, anecdotally at least ,that when young we don't really like it so well - heroine not dashing enough etc, not enough fun etc . But later, oh later yes we love and admire Jenny and can see the way in which Adam learns to be who is through her help. And of course then there is his younger sister (Lydia?) and Jenny's wonderful father , Mr Chawleigh who I'd love to see played by Ray Winstone.

I'm not such a fan of TSB or AIA, perhaps because I feel I can see the painstaking historical research too much. It's the reason I really can't handle her "armour" novels My Lord John, Simon the Coldheart etc either .

In general, I love Heyer for her humor, sparkling characters and dialogue, and historical accuracy in all her descriptions. I go to her books when I want a lift from the daily grind. I think that may be why although I enjoyed A Civil Contract and The Spanish Bride, I wouldn't nominate them as favorites. There's a more serious tone to ACC because it's not the typical game of catch, but a look at a passionless marriage ripening into something sweet.
TSB is one of those books I was glad I read, but couldn't possibly be tempted to read again. Battle history in detail is just not enthralling to me.
Btw, I've not read Venetia or The Unknown Ajax. I'm actually afraid of reaching the end of her best works and am saving some for 'later.' Lol

Never fear Trudy, even when you have read them all, you can just go back and start again . Loses nothing in the repetition to my mind. And you will - I guarantee it - love both TUA and Ven.

I wouldn't characterize Adam and Jenny's marriage as totslly passionless. Jenny had strong feelings for Adam which he had inspired by being at least polite to her, even in the throes of his infatuation for Julia. It shows quite clearly when Jenny tells Julia that she married Adam because there was nothing else she could have done for him! She does do all she can to make their marriage comfortable for Adam and it does work eventually. But Jenny is probably the most practical of GH's heroines.

I agree Jacquie, I think Jenny was and had been for years deeply in love with Adam and was brave enough to risk all by marrying him , knowing he might never love her in the same way . I admire her actions so much more than Hester's who was in the same position in Sprig Muslin refusing to marry Gareth because marrying him would be such "anguish" knowing he didn't love her at the start.

Barbara wrote: "I agree Jacquie, I think Jenny was and had been for years deeply in love with Adam and was brave enough to risk all by marrying him , knowing he might never love her in the same way . I admire her..."

A similar theme, of refusing to agree to marry the hero until he acknowledges both to himself and to the heroine that the reason he want to marry her is because he loves her, is quite common in modern Regency romances. While I can understand it, sometimes it's a little unrealistic given the time period.

I think one difference between Hester and Jenny which redeems Hester is that Jenny knew that in marrying Adam she would be doing him an immense amount of good, saving him from bankruptcy. If you love someone yet refuse to do that because he doesn't love you (and loves someone else) then do you really love him?

But for Hester, the only benefit their marriage would give Gareth is that he wants a comfortable wife. All the other benefits would be Hester's, in that she'd be rescued from her uncaring family, and achieve a status and a home of her own. She also believed him to be still in love with dead fiancee after several years. In those circumstances, I can understand why she felt she couldn't marry him. I don't think I would have done as she did; I'd want to be with him too much!

Yes, what Hj said- poor Hester was in a hard position. And another difference is that she felt Gareth could possibly fall in love again, and shouldn't 'settle' on her- for instance she expects him to fall in love with Amanda.

@ Barbara

But for Hester, the only benefit their marriage would give Gareth is that he wants a comfortable wife. All the other benefits would be Hester's, in that she'd be rescued from her uncaring family, and achieve a status and a home of her own. She also believed him to be still in love with dead fiancee after several years. In those circumstances, I can understand why she felt she couldn't marry him.

I would have married Sir Gareth if he had asked under any circumstances bec even if he did not love his wife as he did his dead fiance', he still would have been a caring, generous (with pin $$$)and considerate spouse.
However, Hester's integrity was a force to be reckoned with to chose to stay with her awful family, no other marriage prospects and living out her life as a dependent/servant of uncaring relatives rather than mary the man she loves who does not love her back.

Janhavi wrote: "Yes, what Hj said- poor Hester was in a hard position. And another difference is that she felt Gareth could possibly fall in love again, and shouldn't 'settle' on her- for instance she expects him ..."

That's a good point which I'd forgotten. She didm't want him to be trapped with her.

Thanks everybody - I don't think I'd actually thought through the differences . Jenny could certainly see that she was in relatively equal role whereas Hester was not. Also , Jenny was a practical girl and Hester , though older , more of romantic.

Still, I'm with Andrea and Hj in that I would have married Sir G , and trusted to time and propinquity to do the rest.....

Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "... he still would have been a caring, generous (with pin $$$)"

$$$?! I don't think so! ;-)

I know a lot of you don't like Dominic. but The Devil's Cub is on sale at Amazon for Kindle today -- $1.99. Just in case you don't have it already.

I think Dominic is an arrogant spoilt man who in my opinion clomes close to raping Mary and it is a myth that women fall in love with their rapist. I was so disappointed in GH in this novel that I count it one of my least liked books. How Alastair and Leonie let D grow up like that is beyond me.
How Mary allowed her son to marry off his daughter Babs to an old man which turned her into the person she was at the start of An Infamous Army does not compute either.

And while I am on my moaning, Judith in AIA is far too matronly. She was quite a madam and feisty with Worth In her salad days which were only about 4 years back judging from the age of little Julian and Perrys children.

Hi Tina there are threads in the group reads folders if you want to discuss these books.

Everyone is always welcome to reactivate the old threads. :)

Barbara wrote: "I agree Jacquie, I think Jenny was and had been for years deeply in love with Adam and was brave enough to risk all by marrying him , knowing he might never love her in the same way . I admire her ..."

Hester has a lot more self respect that Jenny, she won't marry a man who she knows doesn't love her, even though she loves him. She wants a love match, not a marriage of convenience.

Tina wrote: "I think Dominic is an arrogant spoilt man who in my opinion clomes close to raping Mary and it is a myth that women fall in love with their rapist. I was so disappointed in GH in this novel that I ..."

The thing that puzzles me about An Infamous Army is how Mary can be Barbara's grandmother, it doesn't seem that she could be old enough.

Louise, I gather from comments I've read that the timeline to An Infamous Army just doesn't work. It's one of the reasons people find it unsatisfactory. Another is that the characters who were in earlier books seem to have changed and become quite unlike their younger selves.

Hester has a lot more self respect that Jenny, she won't marry a man who she knows doesn't love her, even though she loves him. She wants a love match, not a marriage of convenience.

I don't think it's so much a matter of self-respect as it is that Jenny can actually benefit Adam by marrying him, whereas Hester is not really in that position and can give more weight to her own feelings.

HJ wrote: "Louise, I gather from comments I've read that the timeline to An Infamous Army just doesn't work. It's one of the reasons people find it unsatisfactory. Another is that the characters who were in e..."

Yes, I noticed that too about the characters, Judith for instance. It's one of the Heyers I've never wanted to re-read, for that reason among others.

Margaret wrote: "Hester has a lot more self respect that Jenny, she won't marry a man who she knows doesn't love her, even though she loves him. She wants a love match, not a marriage of convenience.

I don't thin..."

Well, I doubt we would ever agree about Jenny, she is the character I dislike most in all of Heyer, I have no time for her at all.

It's surprising how much one wants to defend a character who only exists in a book! I can see how someone could dislike Tiffany in The Nonesuch, for example, because she has very few redeeming features. But I do find it difficult to understand how someone can really dislike Jenny.

What troubles me especially is that the dislike seems to result from an interpretation of her which is not based on what is written in the book, and or which ignores things which are clearly stated in the book. It just doesn't seem fair.

HJ wrote: "It's surprising how much one wants to defend a character who only exists in a book! I can see how someone could dislike Tiffany in The Nonesuch, for example, because she has very few redeeming features. But I do find it difficult to understand how someone can really dislike Jenny.

What troubles me especially is that the dislike seems to result from an interpretation of her which is not based on what is written in the book, and or which ignores things which are clearly stated in the book. It just doesn't seem fair. "

I think that perhaps you don't understand the reasoning given by those who do say they don't like Jenny. My own dislike of her, for example, is based entirely on things I think I read in the book. I know Georgette Heyer wants me to like her (unlike Tiffany in The Nonesuch, who is meant to be an antagonist or something like it) - but she gives me no real reason to do so.

Here are her traits from positive, neutral and negative, as I see them:

Positive: she is honest with herself, and with Adam; she tries to make the best of a situation as she thinks she can; she is not vicious or jealous about another woman.

Neutral: she marries for the convenience of everybody - for her own feelings of love for Adam, for Adam's need of her money, and for her mother and father's social ambitions.

Negative: she accepts Adam's snubs without any sign of discomfort (kind of like a dog, who, when you kick it, comes back to you with its ears back); she is ashamed of her father; she never expresses any want or need of her own, as though her wants and needs were entirely unimportant; she never asserts her own rights in this marriage under these circumstances

I think everything that I have written actually occurs in the book, but you and I may see the categories differently - as in, you may think some things I have written in the negative column belong in the positive or neutral one, or that some of the things which are negative are trifling in importance and are far outweighed by her positive features. But that is a matter of opinion. We can evaluate things differently, because our perspectives may be different, or because our values, experiences, age or culture may have taught us different things. I don't think that's unfair!

Thank you, Emily, for your fairly neutral listing of Jenny's strength and weaknesses. I think your first two categories are pretty much on the money but I do disagree with your third. I don't see that Adam snubs her. On the contrary he does the best he can to make their marriage work, even while still infatuated with Julia: He is an honorable man. Jenny loves her father but has been about the ton enough to see him as he is and to go against what she sees as wrong. She may not make scenes or demands but does in the end get what she wants whether it is remodeling the kitchen or getting Julia out of their lives.
It is unfair to judge Jenny by today's standards when her legal status was so different from today's. Even though there were women of that time who were influential or rebellious Jenny did not have that kind of personality nor did most other women
then.
I find that Jenny has far more character than many of GH's other heroines and will continue to enjoy A Civil Contract as one of my favorite GH novels.

Oh I don't dispute your (or anybody's) right to enjoy the book! In fact, I enjoyed much of it myself. I love Heyer. I am just not a fan of Jenny. And yes, she does get her way in the end, but I feel like it's not so much because she did anything to make it happen, but because the author just gave it to her. Which bothers me a little, because it feels like she is being rewarded for being meek and weak-spirited. However, I feel like all this has been said already, and I don't actually want to change your opinion of the book or of Jenny, I only wanted to make clear my own position, because I worried I might have been misunderstood. It's just a matter of personal preference and there is nothing wrong with that. For example, lots of people don't like Fanny from Mansfield Park, and I love the novel and am fond of Fanny. I can't help how I feel about these things, and no argument would sway me. But it's cool to hear your thoughts on the subject, anyway :) I sometimes worry these conversations turn into arguments, when probably on all sides we just want to express what we feel.

HJ wrote: "It's surprising how much one wants to defend a character who only exists in a book! I can see how someone could dislike Tiffany in The Nonesuch, for example, because she has very few redeeming feat..."

Fairness has nothing to do with it, it's just the way I feel about her. I'm surprised though that anyone who read Heyer would find it difficult to understand why someone doesn't like Jenny. Most of Heyer's heroines are women of spirit,and often wit, and that's why I like them. Jenny is a doormat, she has no spirit at all. She isn't like any of Heyer's other heroines. She knows Adam is in love with someone else, and that someone her friend, but has no scruples about marrying him nevertheless. I can't imagine any of Heyer's other heroines doing that, they have more self respect. And she thinks she can make him love her by being totally subservient to him, never expressing any wishes or opinions of her own, just catering to his every whim. Her bleating refrain 'men like to be comfortable' is exceedingly irritating. And apparently it works, in a way, he ends up loving her in a lukewarm fashion. It's a lukewarm book. Not what I enjoy about Heyer. Had I read it first, it would probably have been the last Heyer I read too.

Jacquie wrote: "Thank you, Emily, for your fairly neutral listing of Jenny's strength and weaknesses. I think your first two categories are pretty much on the money but I do disagree with your third. I don't see t..."

I don't judge Jenny by the standards of real life women, but by Heyer's other heroines. And I find her unattractive compared to them. She has none of their charm or spirit or wit. And no sense of decency, otherwise she would not be eager to marry a man she knows doesn't love her, and does love her friend. No self respect at all.

I do understand what you're objecting to, but "sense of decency" is not precisely how I'd describe it. In our own day, and I think already in Heyer's day (I mean the time in which she lived, not the times she wrote about), we've got to a point where "we love each other and we want to spend our lives together" is considered the one unexceptionable reason for getting married. But this attitude has been literally centuries in the making, starting with the courtly-love cult in the Middle Ages, and in the Regency it was not quite so entrenched as it is now (though the Romantic movement was in the process of giving it a big boost!). In that sense Jenny is not romantic, but I don't think anyone in her own day would call her conduct "indecent."

Margaret wrote: "I do understand what you're objecting to, but "sense of decency" is not precisely how I'd describe it. In our own day, and I think already in Heyer's day (I mean the time in which she lived, not th..."

Well said Margaret. Folk are entitled to like and dislike characters as they please ; but I do agree that it is unfair and unrealistic to judge them from the standpoint of today's 21st century women. The difference in social/legal/cultural mores is enormous when it comes to marriage and women's position then and now. I don't like this book and have never understood Jenny's willingness to accept the crumbs rather than demand the full feast - but I hardly think I would describe her as 'indecent'!!

I am enjoying this discussion. I would consider Jenny to be managing rather than meek. She reminds me of the old recipe for rabbit pie: 'First catch your rabbit.'

Once married to Adam she lets propinquity and comfort takes its course. Men DO like to be comfortable without continuing drama in their lives. She was an excellent hostess to his old army buddies and produced an heir -- all definitely points in her favor!

Jacquie wrote: "I am enjoying this discussion. I would consider Jenny to be managing rather than meek. She reminds me of the old recipe for rabbit pie: 'First catch your rabbit.'

Once married to Adam she lets pr..."

Jacquie - I love your comments; and the rabbit pie analogy is just priceless!! I actually laughed out loud. I think you have hit the nail on the head!

Margaret wrote: "I do understand what you're objecting to, but "sense of decency" is not precisely how I'd describe it. In our own day, and I think already in Heyer's day (I mean the time in which she lived, not th..."

Margaret wrote: "I do understand what you're objecting to, but "sense of decency" is not precisely how I'd describe it. In our own day, and I think already in Heyer's day (I mean the time in which she lived, not th..."


As I've already said over and over again, I'm not judging Jenny by the supposed standards of Regency England, but by the standards of Heyer's other heroines. And I think Jenny a poor creature compared to them.

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Margaret wrote: "I do understand what you're objecting to, but "sense of decency" is not precisely how I'd describe it. In our own day, and I think already in Heyer's day (I mean the time in which ..."
For the umpteenth time, I'm, not judging Jenny by 21st century standards, but by the standards of Heyer's other heroines. And Jenny comes off poorly compared to them. I simply can't imagine any of her other heroines latching onto a man they knew did not love them, especially when he was in love with a woman they were supposed to be friends with. I can't imagine Sarah Thane doing that, or Deb in Faro's Daughter, or Kitty in Cotillion, or any of them really.

Jacquie wrote: "I am enjoying this discussion. I would consider Jenny to be managing rather than meek. She reminds me of the old recipe for rabbit pie: 'First catch your rabbit.'

Once married to Adam she lets pr..."
Well said! I read A Civil Contract for the first time last year and found it deeply touching and sweet, but I do see both sides - Jenny is a doormat compared to other Heyer heroines v. Jenny "catches her rabbit", keeps him comfortable and love does bloom - an enduring love based on mutual affection and respect, enjoyment of each other's humor and being present for each other. I fall into the second camp because I found this Heyer such a departure from her other sparkling, witty romances; I saw Jenny as someone trapped between two worlds who loved her father deeply and wanted to honor him and all he tried to give her, but was also painfully aware that her background and looks would never allow her to dazzle the ton. Rather, she had spent her life trying to be true to herself and those she loved and live up to what her father desired for her while maintaining her dignity - quite a tightrope to walk. I think she did it well, got the "rabbit" she wanted, and like most of us with someone we love, did all she could to make him happy and "comfortable".

Oddly this book reminded me of my other Heyer favorite, The Foundling - the way Gilly was the total anti-hero but still prevailed, with his tall, rakish, handsome cousin willingly thrust into the role of wingman instead of leading man. Loved it, both books are kind of Heyer's version of "Revenge of the Nerds"!

Susan wrote: "Jacquie wrote: "I am enjoying this discussion. I would consider Jenny to be managing rather than meek. She reminds me of the old recipe for rabbit pie: 'First catch your rabbit.'

Once married to ..."

I so enjoyed this compassionate and perceptive analysis of Jenny , thank you Susan.

Thank you for your kind comment, Barbara!

I was just thinking about doormats. If you willingly let others' interests come first in your life, if you know that you're doing it, and you're not whining about it (or talking about it at all), then are you really a doormat, I wonder...

Karlyne wrote: "I was just thinking about doormats. If you willingly let others' interests come first in your life, if you know that you're doing it, and you're not whining about it (or talking about it at all), t..."

I don't think people are able of this ultimate sacrifice. They must expect something back, for example respect, recognition, love... This is a kind of passive aggressive behaviour that could very easily lead to unhappiness.

I agree - also, it depends whom you are talking about. For example, I think it is not doormatish behaviour if a mother does what you, Karlyne, speak of for her children. But in a relationship between a man and a woman, or any romantic relationship (whatever gender) there must be some reciprocity. I think self-respect demands it.

Judith L. I'm not sure if this is in reference to Jenny, tho there are several Heyer characters that "doormat" might fit. (Not quasi-servants like poor Fish (Cotillion) the governess, for governesses were very dependent upon good recommendations towards their next position.) But Jenny, at least, makes her choice and that is assertive behavior, knowing that she will never quite fit in, trusting that her husband will treat her with good manners. I think it is in The Foundling, where Harriet's mother states something to the effect that if Harriet's husband treats her well privately she should consider herself fortunate. One never knows what goes on behind a marriage's doors.

I agree with you, Judith. By making an assertive choice and standing by it, Jenny proves she's not a doormat. And I do think that people are capable of unselfishness, too, although I'll readily admit that it's not much in evidence these days. Jenny married Adam for Adam's sake, because, as she said, it was the one thing she could do for him.

As far as unselfishness in marriage, we've been led to believe that it should be 50/50 all of the time, but in reality a good marriage is often 75/25 and then flips to 25/75 or even 100/0 and then, hopefully, 0/100. When we start demanding reciprocity I think we've missed the boat. It's great for a business relationship (sometimes!) but not so much for real people. It ends up being a matter of keeping score. Of course, this is just my brilliant take on it after a zillion years of experience, so take it with a grain of salt!

I just read "Regency Buck" and have to say that it my favorite to date! Now I have to go back and re-read some old favs to see how they hold up. Of course, it's difficult to choose, but others would be Arabella, Frederica, and The Grand Sophy.

That's what makes this group so fun - I'm reminded of Heyer's titles I read years ago, and get to revisit and discuss with this knowledgeable group - it's the best kind of book club, you don't have to clean and can take part in your jammies!

True! Although i do miss sharing refreshments and beverages...

Well, that's true enough...

Virtual tea and crumpets are just not quite as much fun...

Ha! I probably told you guys about my one & only experience of a real life book club!

It's a great concept - a govt funded scheme where each member pays to join & you get a list to choose from. We were a brand new group & most of us didn't think it through & chose current best sellers - just like every other group in the country. So the woman who chose dreary Russian classics had her books arrive as our read every month!!! Not what I felt like when pregnant & then with a baby. I did get to read 2 all time favourites with the group - The Daughter of Time & Season Of The Jew but most off the rest was not my taste & I gave up midway in my second year.

Goodreads suits me better!

"Dreary Russian classics" - I know what you mean! Anna Karenina is not for the pregnant!

Karlyne wrote: ""Dreary Russian classics" - I know what you mean! Anna Karenina is not for the pregnant!"

& Camus. Didn't even open that one.