Christian Readers discussion

A friend has lent me a good book Hosting the Presence: Unveiling Heaven's Agenda. I have only just started reading it so it is too soon for me to give an informed opinion. However, it did lead me to take a quick look at an old Billy Graham book Angels: God's Secret Agents and this might prove useful in your deliberations.

Fallen angels are part of God's plan. Beings don't change their own nature - God must make a window for it. And he did.

It was a one time event. Very necessary. It's almost a direct scenario to the later rebellion of humans. God's choosing for His Glory - this didn't surprise Him. All part of the plan. Caste down from heaven to Earth - many poorly assume that Satan goes back and forth, but no.

Demons are keeping the game from getting stale.but there's flaming swords to keep them in line. They gave severe limitations and restrictions.

Did God ever love them??? Don't assume.

God isn't necessarily a forgiving god. And His Love has a huge condition. But those aren't bad things. They are a Holy things.

Fallen angels were a one time event - sometime between Creation and Adam's fall.

The Bible mentions all of this. But read carefully

I don't believe that angels just lounge around in heaven picking their nails or singing hallelujah all the time. There are those (Cherubim I think), but most angels have a purpose and their purpose is directly linked to us. As long as Jesus has not returned to earth, there is a war going on that we are largely unaware of. As for the question if God loves angels (whether fallen or not), I don't know. My experience with them (and demons) was rather emotionless. Meaning: Angels don't have emotions like humans. They are of a different order. So why would God love them, if they are incapable of feeling loved? But that is only my extremely personal opinion founded on nothing whatsoever.

Rod wrote: "God isn't necessarily a forgiving god. And His Love has a huge condition. But those aren't bad things. They are a Holy things."

God's love is unconditional... receiving the benefits of His love has the huge condition... RECEIVING JESUS!

Revelation 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven : Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth , and his angels were cast out with him.
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* Where were they? in heaven

* Where did they go? cast out into earth

Thanks Robert. Great verses eh? War in heaven: wow!

I agree Robert - if we have no Jesus: then we have no condition for God's Love.

I'm not part of any church denomination: I just love the Bible. I am mostly Reformed though (but their music bores me).

Great topic.

Fun comments Annette.

I too am not sure if angels have the same range of human emotions- they certainly aren't human. But they aren't robots either. They are persons that understand the game.

As the bible says: demons are more like evil natured frogs. Humans have hope - demons have none.

I don't think humans were meant to live a certain way before the fall: the fall was essential to Jesus being our Savior and King and lamb. Demons are essential too, as are angels.

This is Gods epic drama. For His Glory!!!

Rod wrote: "I don't think humans were meant to live a certain way before the fall: the fall was essential to Jesus being our Savior and King and lamb. Demons are essential too, as are angels.

This is Gods ep..."

I disagree... the Fall was NOT essential... God FOREKNEW it would happen... He did NOT FORCE it to happen.

Rod wrote: "Thanks Robert. Great verses eh? War in heaven: wow!..."

That is possibly one reason why in the end there will be a NEW Heaven and NEW earth...

I think God DID force the fall.

He placed a tree of evil experience in the garden, He left mankind alone to ponder, He allowed Satan and demons to dwell in the garden... duh?

All part of the plan. Then man CHOSE to rebel. Let the game begin.

Robert, God doesn't sit back nervously with His fingers crossed. He knows the very nature of all His creations. He even knew Satan's nature. These aren't accidents.

Joshua do you have bible verses to support your ideas about angels and demons?
Any mentions of demons laughing or crying (or angels)? In scripture.

We don't know everything- but there's a fair bit to work with.

Where does an angel or demon feel pain? Who says they have flesh or nerves? Or even the ability to contemplate or reflect... or even desire?

Joshua, will your Jesus not send most of humanity (and all demons) to HELL? Apparently there are conditions then. We have a Bible full of them.

God is bigger than these conditions- and yet most will not enjoy His love, grace, and mercy.

Rod wrote: "I think God DID force the fall.

He placed a tree of evil experience in the garden, He left mankind alone to ponder, He allowed Satan and demons to dwell in the garden... duh?

All part of the pla..."

Sorry, but you have a perverse notion of God.

How is giving FREE WILL equal with God FORCING Eve to eat?

That would make God evil...

...NOT MY GOD! He is NOT like that!

Rod wrote: "Robert, God doesn't sit back nervously with His fingers crossed. He knows the very nature of all His creations. He even knew Satan's nature. These aren't accidents."

Thanks for your OPINIONS Rod... here is what I believe...
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1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
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Funny, my beliefs are God's Word, Rod's beliefs are Rod's word.

Yes, he had the foreknowledge to put the tree in the garden. And caste Satan down to the Earth. Hmmm...

Rod wrote: "Yes, he had the foreknowledge to put the tree in the garden. And caste Satan down to the Earth. Hmmm..."

Still no quoted Scripture, huh Rod?
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1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
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Funny, my beliefs are God's Word, Rod's beliefs are Rod's word.

Joshua wrote: "Revelations, I just read the book a second time as an adult a couple of weeks ago. It's beautiful, but hard to understand from modern eyes..."

Yes, it definitely can be hard to understand. There are four or five major interpretations of Revelation, which can also be confusing.

You very rude Robert. Shouldn't you be working on that?

Your understanding of foreknowledge makes it out to be God using His crystal ball.
The Biblical God simply decides and chooses for HIS glory.

Rod wrote: "You very rude Robert. Shouldn't you be working on that?

Your understanding of foreknowledge makes it out to be God using His crystal ball.
The Biblical God simply decides and chooses for HIS glory."

My response: That is NOT my understanding... that is God's Word.

You preach an OGRE God Who FORCES most people into HELL... and FORCES a few people into HEAVEN.

John 6:64-65

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

* Jesus FOREKNEW (knew from the beginning)...
* This foreknowledge is why Jesus told them that unless the Father enabled them, they could not come...
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NOT my understanding... CLEAR SCRIPTURE.

Robert, do you think angels are still rebelling? Was it a one time event? Why don't demons desire to repent?
Why are humans allowed a lifetime to choose- but then never again?
Why won't people in heaven rebel and gave another war?

Our God Given natures. Does an Ogre control them? Or use them? Or beg them to do His bidding? There is choice: but within God given natures.

My God is sovereign over ALL. Demons, angels, AND humans.

So God enables some but not others - based on his crystal ball fortune telling?

Or His sovereign choice --- which He then allows demons and angels to fulfill with their very natures and existence. Like the Bible says.

Rod wrote: "Robert, do you think angels are still rebelling?..."

After they saw what happened to satan and his demons... I don't think so!

Rod wrote: "My God is sovereign over ALL. Demons, angels, AND humans. ..."

No you god is NOT sovereign over all. Your god is a brutish DICTATOR like allah, who FORCES most people into hell.
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The TRUE God that the Bible proclaims offers a genuine choice to whosoever SHALL.... a choice offered to ALL!

Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." [whoever... not just the few]

Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people." [offered to all... not just the few]

I notice that you did NOT quote ANY Scriptures that say God ONLY offers salvation to the few He FORCES into Heaven.

I would quote scriptures Robert - but they often confuse and frustrate you. You assume 21st century English meanings (of your choice) to ancient writings and classic languages.

How many definitions are there for : foreknowledge? Why assume only your favorite?

What fits the character of the Biblical God? Go add up all the people He killed in the old and New Testament. All those he will send to hell. All the angels He caste out without forgiveness.

God is mighty - and Glorious, and He's not fooling around or taking chances.

So you think angels might DESIRE to rebel but are afraid of a tyrant unforgiving God??? Ohhh.

You might want to check some other translations of Titus 2:11

Rod wrote: "You might want to check some other translations of Titus 2:11"

Here is a link to MORE than 50 English translations...

Find ONE (just one will do) that says God offers salvation ONLY to those He is FORCING into Heaven.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en...

Hint: no such nonsense exists!

Rod wrote: "So you think angels might DESIRE to rebel but are afraid of a tyrant unforgiving God??? Ohhh."

Nope! They loving stay true to a HOLY God... Who IS a consuming fire!

Rod wrote: "I would quote scriptures Robert..."

My response: You would quote Scriptures... but you CAN'T FIND any that agree with your OPINIONS.

Rod wrote: "God is mighty - and Glorious, and He's not fooling around or taking chances..."

Of course God does not take any chances... when He KNOWS EVERYTHING... and bases His election on what He KNOWS... there is NO CHANCE involved.

Please quote scripture which shows there is chance involved.

God isn't gambling. Jesus is a successful King. He's not crossing his fingers and hoping all the angels and saints don't have a war in heaven again.

So this All Consuming Fire of justice and wrath Isn't a tyrant? At least my bible has a consistent God. He loves His Son. And His Son's bride. God doesn't love his enemies - or offer them 2nd chances.

Robert have you read the entire Bible??? In order to prove my points - I'd have to quote the entire thing to you. You only seem capable of one word from a verse at a time. You miss entire themes. (Yes, it's difficult to quote a theme.)

Rod wrote: "Please quote scripture which shows there is chance involved..."

I just told you there is NO CHANCE... God KNOWS EVERYTHING and bases His election on His KNOWLEDGE.

Rod wrote: "Robert have you read the entire Bible???..."

Yes, multiple times.

It is SADLY humorous. You question my Bible reading when it is YOU who almost NEVER quote the Word of God.

Very Saul Alinksy like - accuse others of what you yourself are guilty of.

I believe all angels (including demons) have feelings; they are emotional. Revelation 12:13 speaks of Satan having great wrath, and that he was wroth (12:17). Satan's fall from heaven was because of pride, which is an emotional state (in my humble opinion). His heart was "lifted up" because he thought he was so good-looking (Ezekiel 28:17). Also, the demons n Matthew 8:29 asked if Christ came to torment them. These are emotional acts, are they not?

Joshua wrote: "Tyrone wrote: "I believe all angels (including demons) have feelings; they are emotional. Revelation 12:13 speaks of Satan having great wrath, and that he was wroth (12:17). Satan's fall from heave..."

You're welcome. Not the first time I've heard that...lol.

Joshua wrote: "Annette wrote: "I don't believe that angels just lounge around in heaven picking their nails or singing hallelujah all the time. There are those (Cherubim I think), but most angels have a purpose a..."

Hi Joshua,
no, I don't think we will become angels when we go to heaven. We will still be humans, but we will no longer be subject to time and space, which will change the physics a bit.
My opinion about angels' emotions derives from the experience that they are very focussed on their tasks. I also find this in the Bible. They usually don't stay to chat about this and that, they deliver their message and off they go. Humans have a tendency to project their own emotions all over the place. While I will grant that angels (as well as animals) do have some sort of emotions, they are still different from our emotions. I believe our emotions are part of our unique creation in the image of God.

Here's another wild theory I've been carrying around with me for a while:
What if God uses everything that happened from Eden to the cross and beyond to separate evil from himself?
I'm inclined to follow Rod with his argumentation: The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil supposedly had the same root. Man only had to leave the garden because he was not entitled to eternal life while having this knowledge. If you know there is evil, you have a choice. Where there is no knowledge, there is no choice. In a way, we return to the naivite of Adam and Eve when we turn to Christ. But it is our choice. While we still know that there is evil, it holds no more power over us. Death holds no more power over us. With that, we are entitled again to live in the presence of God. And God is taking care that nothing evil can ever touch us again.
It was there right from the start and it needed getting rid off.

Being saved is FAR SUPERIOR than the state of Adam and Eve before the Fall.

Adam and Eve were innocent... they could stand before God in their own righteousness!

Christians are better than innocent... we stand before God in the righteousness of Jesus!

Now we're getting into the thick of it. Thanks Annette.

And NO, we do not become angels. Is this what some Catholics are telling people? Hope not. Let Hollywood do it.

I do not presume to judge if it's better to be innocent or saved - the result is the same. We stand in the presence of God. I would have been perfectly happy to remain innocent in Eden forever and ever without being cast out and all that. But I suppose that wasn't the plan. The plan was to have us detour through time and space and mortality to return to eternal life. What's your idea of the reason for this, Rod?

Annette wrote: "I do not presume to judge if it's better to be innocent or saved - the result is the same. We stand in the presence of God. I would have been perfectly happy to remain innocent in Eden forever and ..."

My response: The result is not the same. If Adam and Eve had not sinned... they would not have died and thus they would not have dwelt in the Presence of God.

Do you really think it is equal to be innocent before God... or as righteous as God, in Christ?

Permanently in Eden, walking with God in the cool of the day...

...does not seem as equal to permanently living in the Presence of God all the time!

Huh, Robert, you got me there. I took it to be the same but you're right, it's not. So what Adam and Eve engaged in - and with that all mankind - is a very long journey into the presence of God.
Can't wait to get there.

Annette wrote: "Huh, Robert, you got me there. I took it to be the same but you're right, it's not. So what Adam and Eve engaged in - and with that all mankind - is a very long journey into the presence of God.
C..."

I can't wait to get there either...

...since I have been saved... I have often said... "Amen, come Lord Jesus!"

Now I say it, and more deeply mean it, many times a day!

Good question Annette.
It's all about and FOR Jesus.

If there was only an Eden - we wouldn't really need a Jesus savior or Messiah or teacher or...