Support for Indie Authors discussion

I'm writing a sci-fi, and I don't know whether what I'm writing will keep the reader engaged or not. It's keeping me engaged, but I don't think it's the same with the reader and writer. I try to keep the plot moving and the characters developing as much as possible. Do you know any other way of keeping the reader engaged?

Thanks! I'll cut the unnecessary descriptions, but I can't do the beta readers thing because I'm not telling anyone that I'm writing this book (to not feel any pressure) and only my sister knows (she doesn't give very constructive criticism). By the way, what do you think about dialogue? I'm using a lot of it, like I did in my last novel, so that I can develop characters as I develop the plot.

The key is drawing out the suspense.

You can always ask if anyone on here is willing to do a beta read. They won't really know you from the general writers on here so you can keep your anonymity. I think that you need some description in a scifi book because you're creating a world that exists only in your imagination so don't trim it down too much and don't have a cliffhanger at the end of every chapter to try to drive excitement either.

Make your readers like your MC, then plunge them into conflict, internal and external.

I concur with Morris view that it is important for the reader to engage with your protagonists. Pace also has a lot to do with reader engagement, try to have changes of tempo in order to keep the reader's attention. You can't have all mad action, or all introspection, either becomes wearing on the reader.

Oh and tell the story you would want to read...

I too am with Morris.
I would add to that emphases on character development and balance.

Ma-boy wrote: "I'm writing a sci-fi, and I don't know whether what I'm writing will keep the reader engaged or not. It's keeping me engaged, but I don't think it's the same with the reader and writer. I try to keep the plot moving and the characters developing as much as possible. Do you know any other way of keeping the reader engaged?"

The first step for me is to be honest with myself as to if I am engaged in the book or not. Seems that you've already passed that test.

Another really good method is to show it to others. I know you say you don't want to use beta readers, but please reconsider. It's really the best way to gauge what others will think of your book.

A few tricks I use that I believe keep my writing engaging:
*Don't let it all flow out at once, especially in novels. Give a little bit of a story, then move to another plot-line for a bit. Let the reader wonder where you were going in the first.
* Give a mix of drama and humor, of calm times and exciting times.
* Dig into all important characters (in other words, all characters) until you know them as well as you know your sibling. You probably won't use most of what you know, but having that intimate knowledge of the characters will give them a lot of depth.
* Do not be predictable. Don't even give a twist or two. Shock the hell out of your reader. Let them think they know what's going to happen, then go the other direction.
* Think of your settings, prominent items, vehicles, etc. in your book as characters and give details about them. Make your whole world or universe come alive. Have your characters experience their world, including the sights, smells, sounds, etc.
* Don't copy what you see other authors doing. Make sure your voice is unique. It's impossible to write something that is purely original, but don't settle for writing books you've already read. Take elements of other books, yes, but create something new with them.

Ma-boy wrote: "By the way, what do you think about dialogue? I'm using a lot of it, like I did in my last novel, so that I can develop characters as I develop the plot. "

Personally, I like dialogue. I like reading stories with a lot of dialogue and I like writing it. Yes, it is good if the dialogue either adds to the plot or reveals character or both.

Lots of good dialogue and lots of conflict usually keeps things moving along.

So since there is no "contact the moderator" button, or even an indication of who the moderator is, I guess I have to ask here:

Is there any special reason why an unknown moderator cuts pretty much every post I make, without even the courtesy of saying why?

Given that my posts do not violate the TOS or the rules posted, it seems that one of the moderators is in "If I don't agree you can't say it," mode. Seems to me that if you're going to post a set of rules, you need to abide by them, as well.

+1 aboard the dialog train. In my estimation, there is nothing that will color a character and their personality better or faster than dialog. I'll add though that it's good to be mindful of speech patterns/dialects/etcetera if you're using a lot of dialog from different characters. That way you can not only avoid everyone sounding the same, but you'll also have an added layer of attention-grabbing and memorability.

Jay wrote: "So since there is no "contact the moderator" button, or even an indication of who the moderator is, I guess I have to ask here:

Is there any special reason why an unknown moderator cuts pretty mu..."

You can always contact a moderator, as you have in the past when posts were deleted.

Again, we do not allow book recs to our members, linked or not linked, a bookwhack is a bookwhack.

You can't recommend a book on how to write in a writing forum. Are you out of your mind?

Jay wrote: "You can't recommend a book on how to write in a writing forum. Are you out of your mind?"

Yes, I am out of my mind, but that point is irrelevant to the conversation.

The point of Support Indie Authors is for authors to support each other with their own, personal experience. This does not include trying to sell them on services or how-to guides. If you have personally gained information from a book that you feel you want to share, you can offer that tidbit along with why it works.

• You can always contact a moderator,

Nonsense. Place your name on a message, as it appears on your page, and it comes back saying your name wasn't found. And, they've removed the button to send you a message from your page. So, given that, I have no choice but to speak here before I go.

This, and the other forums are for people who are, or hope to be, published. And as part of that process, one must learn the skills and techniques unique to our medium. That's not optional because the only writing skills we learn in our schooldays are nonfiction, to make us useful to our future employers. Fully 75% of what's submitted as a query is rejected for being unreadable. Of the rest, all but 3 are deemed unprofessional (their term, not mine). So encouraging self-publication without even mentioning the problem the untrained writer faces, by forbidding all mention of the problem and the solution is at best, short sighted. At worst, you've destroyed the career of someone who might, with a bit of time spent acquiring a knowledge of the basics, become a successful writer. That person could, with a visit to the public library, and a bit of work, place themselves into the group that editors, and readers, take seriously. But your interpretation of policy blocks that.

Suggesting that the hopeful writer might benefit by reading a book on writing technique written by a professor whose student list read like a who's who of American writing isn't bookwhacking. It's a service.

But more than that, had you told me the post was deleted, and why, I could have redone it without the names of the teachers. But you delete pretty much all my posts without even the courtesy of letting me know who did it, or why,

It seems obvious that you've taken a dislike to me, and are letting that influence your actions. But by those actions you're doing a disservice to your members. I no longer have my manuscript critique service, but I still feel strongly about helping hopeful writers. And more than one or two people are published today because of my help. The advice I give is a restating of the words of giants like Dwight Swain, Sol Stein, and Donald Maass. Condemning the advice because you don't like the messenger is at best, short sighted.

But since you feel as you do, I'll go elsewhere, to a forum where I can help.

Jay wrote: "That's not optional because the only writing skills we learn in our schooldays are nonfiction, to make us useful to our future employers..."

Jay, you have made this claim before. It may be true of you, but it is not true of all of us. I have said to you, at least twice, in the past that I learned creative writing as far back as elementary school. I took courses in high school and college. Yet, you continue to make this argument in many of your posts. I am sorry you were deprived of creative writing in your education, but do not assume we are all in the same boat.

The point of this forum is really for writers to discuss the art and business of writing, not to send people off after our own personal gurus. Perhaps you have found some books that work for you. Great! Discuss them in your blog, on facebook, on Twitter, etc. But, that is not what this forum is for.

Try to ensure at least one character is engaged with the plot per scene. Some would even insist--especially actors--that the middle of each scene should resolve around at least two characters in conflict. Then when a character does/says something that nobody else can trump: that's your scene conclusion.

Jane wrote: "I concur with Morris view that it is important for the reader to engage with your protagonists. Pace also has a lot to do with reader engagement, try to have changes of tempo in order to keep the r..."
Great advice, Jane. I read a book recently that had non-stop action and it was wearing - and boring! I would also advise Ma-Boy to try to get at least one other pair of eyes to look at his work, even though he said he doesn't want anyone to know he's writing a book. We are usually so close to our work that it's sometimes hard to tell what is working from what isn't without feedback from others. I depend hugely on my critique group. I think every author should belong to one.

Dan wrote: "I too am with Morris.
I would add to that emphases on character development and balance."

This!

Samantha wrote: "The key is drawing out the suspense."

Agreed, if done right this is a great way to keep a reader engaged.

For one of my books I made sure the first line for every chapter was eye-catching, shocking and really stood out. It's a good way to get people who may have fallen asleep or are ready to check out. Of course it means you shouldn't just write a good opener and then slack the rest of the way but build off the opening sentence to the chapter. Not only is it a good practice but it's fun to sit there and try to come up with something you know will get people like :O ooh!

I've tried a few things to engage readers. I think things such as giving your characters a trait or a flaw that readers can relate to make characters more engaging. As far as plot goes, I find that introducing conflict, whether it be physical, emotional or intellectual, gets readers thinking so they are more involved with the story. Also I think playing on the senses, sight, sound, touch, smell, taste, helps the reader to feel more immersed in a scene.

I found this topic very useful. It gave me a lot to think about. Thanks.

Make your main character relatable and keep moving the story forward.

Personally, I trust impartial beta readers the most. After that, it's my editor and I.

I never ask my friends for their opinion because I don't want to "discuss work" with my friends.

It's so hard when it's your own story. You can't tell if the prose flows well or if you're just so familiar with it that you know what's coming next. You can't say if it's engaging or boring, or if you're just engaged because you're putting so much energy into creating it, or you're bored because you've read it over and over and over and ... so on.

For me, I would say, if there are any scenes of whose purpose is to transition the action/characters from one event to another, it's not going to be engaging to read. Such scenes must be reworked until they could almost be stand-alone stories all by themselves. For a scene to engage the reader, there must be something at stake; even if it's just in the head of a character, it has to be real, and there has to be a challenge to its success.

Also, don't just set up a bunch of obstacles between your characters and their goals and let them work through them one-at-a time. Each obstacle should change both the direction of the story and its characters. Each should continue on long after it's resolved, affecting everything that comes after.

Also, there's been a lot of talk on this thread about ensuring you have great characters. 100% agree! But don't talk about their personalities, foibles and motivations. Don't rely on dialogue to express what kind of people they are. Throw everything you can think of in their path. Challenge them. Let us see who they are by what they do facing an impossible decision, how they react to the worst/best/most unexpected event they could imagine (or fail to imagine). A character who doesn't do anything is neither engaging, nor really a character at all. Just a hypothetical set of personality traits.

And finally, pacing. I find plotting helps for this. A lot of people don't like plotting because it feels less organic, but I say, once you realise your first idea is almost never your best idea, it's as useful a tool as editing. Know you're story as a whole. Imagine what it's like to read it, where the impacts are, how long tensions are drawn out, what's revealed and when. This really cuts down on the number of points where you don't really know what to write next, or how to approach the scene you've come up with. Because these are where you're most at risk for just writing anything down to get you to the next envisioned story event (see my first point), and disengaging the reader in the process.

In my old writer's group, we used to have our work read aloud -- but not by the author, who could add emphasis with vocal cues that weren't on the page. This provided two benefits - a fresh "look" at the manuscript, and the opportunity for the writer to watch the other participants, to see when they were paying attention, and when they started fidgeting. I knew when I heard papers rustling that I lost them, and needed to tighten up a scene.

One question I find it useful to ask is this: If I was in a bar, and someone told me this story, why would it hold my attention?

Because I cared about the people in the story, perhaps. For that to happen the problem they face must be something they haven't caused by their own stupidity. Because of they way it is told, moving along at a decent pace without a lot of irrelevant explanation.

Most of all because of uncertainty of outcome. I don't know at the beginning if this is comedy or tragedy, if I'm being told how someone found their lost love and lived HEA, or how in the end he found her grave. If I want to know the ending I am engaged.

Personally I think that if the reader doesn't want to be engaged anymore, that they should just break it off now. Every day they wait will only make it harder to leave the relationship, and with the wedding getting closer and closer, there isn't much time to wait. I know it can seem like a long time, but it will be longer if you wait. I don't want anyone to be in a loveless marriage.
...
What? Book engagement with a reader?
Oh. Uh... *blush* never mind then.

I understand that Bernard Cornwell, the hugely successful British historical novelist, creator of Sharpe etc. found that he wanted to write a book, but didn’t know where, or how to start.
He knew he wanted to write a historical novel, set in the Napoleonic Wars, but that was it. So, he bought the current three bestsellers in the genre and analysed the Hell out of them, going down in his analysis even to paragraph level and charting what he found - where the action scenes came, where the exposition, where the plot veered, or twisted, where the tension built, where the “surprises” came etc. etc. This process led him to a sort of “road-map” of a successful novel in his chosen genre. He maintains that “it wasn’t plagiarism, but imitation.”
He knew what he liked about the books he had chosen to analyse and what he didn’t, so decided, in his own novel, to maximise the things he liked and minimise the kind of writing and content he didn’t. The result was “Sharpe’s Eagle” - the rest is history.

I’m not recommending Cornwell’s approach for everyone, but I believe his underlying message is two-fold:
1. Read as much as you can, not just for enjoyment, but with an analytical eye. Enjoy the story, but try to understand how it works, how it engages you. Gradually, you will come to understand a great deal about plotting, pace and many of the things which make up the author’s craft.
2. Write. As Cornwell says “A page a day and you have written a novel in a year.”

Don’t be put off, by anything and don’t constantly revise as you go. Just get it down. Let the juices flow. There’s plenty of time for revising, honing, re-writing, editing etc. later. The most important thing is to have something to revise, hone, rewrite and edit. The finished product - if ever any book can ever be called truly “finished” - will probably be very different from those crude first attempts, which you’ll probably want to delete for ever, or burn - but don’t! Keep them; and, every now and again, especially if you’re finding part of your writing tough going - don’t we all?- take them out and read those first, faltering steps again. You’ll be amazed at how much you’ve improved.

Morris wrote: "Make your readers like your MC, then plunge them into conflict, internal and external."

Yessssssss! I couldn't agree more.

William wrote: "As Cornwell says 'A page a day and you have written a novel in a year.'"

A page a day yields a 365 page rough draft, not a novel.

Excellent advice, William. And then there's revision...

Read, read, read and do some analyzing: what worked and why; what kept your interest and where it fell off; where the story pivoted and went it in its 'story' direction.
A page a day is a good goal. Reason: it's easy and most don't stop at that one page. :)

As with so many other things, keeping the reader engaged depends on a lot of factors.

Arthur C. Clarke's work like Childhood's End or Asimov's Foundation Trilogy are not action adventure tales. They don't rely on character or fast paced combat/chase sequences but rather on larger scale world creation and ideas. Scalzi's work focuses more on cleverness and humor. Greg Bear's SF work is mostly focused on calm exposition and meticulous scientific verisimilitude.

My point is reader grabbing attention will be different in different kinds of works, so it's hard to just say that character or dialog or lean exposition or [whatever] is the key.

If I were to generalize, I would say the key to keeping your reader's attention is to maintain appropriate pacing, but that what is "appropriate" will vary depending on the kind of SF you're working on. Military/classic Space Opera are going to need a tighter, faster pacing. Certain kinds of Social SF will need more time spent on exposition and internal probing. Hard SF will need ... well Hard SF is hard.

Nailing down what's appropriate for any one book is hard, too, because most books fall into some gray in between subgenre, merging elements from more or less defined subgenres.

M.L. Roberts is correct: read, read, read. Get a feel for how pacing works in the books that turn you on. Then write. You will never be sure you've done it well. Uncertainty is our lot. But if we could be certain would we really be pushing our boundaries?

I’m sorry, but I can’t agree. You seem to be thinking in terms of the sweep of story, the macro-plot events that create the motivation which will cause our characters to act in the moment our protagonist calls, “now.” Plot matters, of course, but only in retrospect—after the events have added up to show the story arc. Halfway through a story we have only suspicion as to the ending. But still, we’re staying with it. Why? Because on every page we are entertained, and emotionally connected to the protagonist’s hope for the immediate future. Remove that and it’s a historical record. And how many read history books as entertainment.

You used Childhood’s End as an example. So let’s look at the first paragraph:
- - - - - -
Before she flew to the launch site, Helena Lyakhov always went through the same ritual. She was not the only Cosmonaut who did so, though few ever talked about it.
- - - - - -
In thirty words, Clark has placed us in time and space. He’s told us what’s going on, and whose skin we’re wearing. And, he’s placed a hook. The reader now wants to know what the ritual is.

It seems simple and obvious, but the average hopeful writer would provide something like:
- - - - - -
Helena Lyakhov, a Russian cosmonaut, walked toward the park, and the statue of Uri Gagarin, where she would perform her pre-flight ritual—the one she always did before traveling to the Baikonur Cosmodrome launch site. She wasn’t the only one who did it, though few ever talked about it.
- - - - - -
Forty-nine boring words that laboriously spell out what Clarke provides, indirectly, through implication, in thirty. And more words equals a slower narrative, one that has less impact per page.

In the next paragraph, he sets the scene. But look at how seamlessly he does it:
- - - - - -
It was already dark when she left the administration building and walked past the pine trees, until she came to the famous statue. The sky was crystal clear and a brilliant full moon had just risen. Automatically, Helena’s eyes focused on the Mare Imbrium, and her mind went back to the weeks of training at Armstrong Base—now better known as Little Mars.
- - - - - -
We learn, incidentally, where she was—backstory without the need for backstory. We put her into the park and in a clear space where she can see the arriving ship, facing properly to view it. We place her eyes upward, so she will see the ship. And everything she does is because she finds personal reason to do it, based on the situation, not a script.

We read the words. We respond to them, and we never notice the skill that went into telling us so much, so concisely, and making the action feel natural because as they say, “Art conceals art.” And by using that art, Clarke has turned a description of a visual scene into story. A simple stroll to a statue and we know who she is, where she is, where she came from, that she’s been training for some off-Earth mission, in a country other than her own. And, the nickname for the base hints at what the mission is. The man was so brilliant at what he did it looks easy.

My point is: who, on reading this, would not only be oriented and placed into the story, but want to know what will happen next—in other words, turn the page? The answer is, damn few, which explains why Clarke is praised for his work.

Keeping the reader engaged isn’t a matter of the rate at which things happen. A writer of Clark’s caliber would keep you turning pages with a story of taking out the trash. It’s a matter of involving that reader, emotionally, and of always keeping them wanting to know what happens on the next page—their focus on the micro, not the macro.

Events motivate our protagonist to act, as they do us in life. History books tell us what the action is in overview, and what happened next, so it’s immutable, and there is no uncertainty. But fiction involves the reader in the protagonist's decision to act. We know why the protagonist decides to speak/act, but because we’re not in overview mode, but are in the protagonist’s “now,” the future is always uncertain, just as it is in life. And it’s that uncertainty, and the strength of our desire to know the result of the action taken, that keeps us reading. Great writer = great desire to know what happens next. Good Writer = The story was okay. Average writer = rejection.

Anyone can write a chronicle of events. Involving the reader in those events, personally…that’s a bitch. But it is our job.

Sorry about the italics, I missed a slash and forgot to preview

Jay wrote: "I’m sorry, but I can’t agree. You seem to be thinking in terms of the sweep of story, the macro-plot events that create the motivation which will cause our characters to act in the moment our prota..."

Well I'm sorry but I think we're talking a bit about two different things (and will have different opinions about specific books). You're focusing on effective writing of specific sentences and scenes. I'm assuming that effective writing is there to begin with ... you can still lose the interest of a reader if your effective writing style is wasted on the wrong amount of exposition, too much or too little back story, or if the sequencing of action and introspection/exposition are off balance.

And, as I'm reading Childhood's End right now and finding it very underwhelming in a lot of ways, I could point to passages where Clarke lost me. But that's a bit too academic for here.

[Edit] Also, you really confused me because that first paragraph you quote isn't the first paragraph in the eBook. It shows up only in the Appendix along with the note: "In 1989, the author updated the first chapter of Childhood's End to reflect the common belief that the Russians--rather than the Germans--would be leading in space. After the breakup of the Soviet Union, he decided to revert back to the original text."

I had this exact challenge writing my own science fiction novel, and I solved it using some wisdom from the thriller genre: if things get boring, bring in a man with a gun.

It doesn't actually have to be a man with a gun, it can be any exciting twist that unexpectedly raises the stakes and makes the main character's task that much more complicated and dangerous. If things are going too smoothly, you should throw a spanner in the works. Maybe aliens ambush the space station, or a bomb goes off and the main character gets framed, or a man with a gun walks in.

If in doubt, add a plot twist.

This is always what you need to engage a reader:

Suspense
Emotion
Plot Twists
Well-developed characters
Description of character, setting, or scene
Proper use of scene transition when dealing with moving through one scene to another with moderate to fast pacing during action scenes (if you have action included)
Interesting storyline with subplots to maintain interest

Well said!