Christian Readers discussion
As Concerning Giving and Receiving
date
newest »
newest »
So who exactly do the 1st century gentiles give a tithe to? The temple? A house church? A missionary? The community of Saints? What does the N.T. Say?
Mod
_______________
Acts 4:34-35
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked : for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet : and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
_______________
1 Corinthians 9:14 - "In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel ."
So we should start communes then? As soon as we find some apostles to distribute our wealth?
Mod
1 Corinthians 9:14 - "In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel ."
I get the idea that God wants us to give joyfully, honestly, compassionately, meaningfully. Be that 2% or 100%.I'm not sure we Gentiles even have temples, altars, or apostles (in the serious sense of the word.)
But times change.
Mod
Perhaps the idea is that God wants to provide for His called ministers.
________________________
Numbers 18:21 - "And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation."
1 Corinthians 9:14 - " In the same way , the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel ."
Yes, preachers should get their living by the Gospel. Paul apparently didn't.But is 10% all the Gospel demands? Are gentiles under this Gospel tax? Probably? is there a specific verse?
I could be mistaken, but I don't think tithes are mentioned in the New Testament. We are asked to give cheerfully (2 Corinthians 9:7). Tithing was an Old Testament law, and Christians are not under the law, but under grace (Romans 6:14).
Mod
But is 10% all the Gospel demands? Are gentiles under this Gospel tax? Probably? is there a specific verse?"
My response: Paul "complained" (at least mentioned) not receiving remuneration.
1 Corinthians 9:6 - "Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living?"
Just because Paul did not make use of his rights... does that invalidate those rights? Were the other apostles guilty?
Mod
My response: Under the New Covenant Grace is the expectation... NOT the Law.
Now please quote to me one NT verse that shows the Holy Spirit leading a godly person to give LESS than tithes.
I believe the NT gives us examples of what Spirit led giving looks like.
Do you know of any verses where God leads people to weaker giving than that of the OT?
Mod
Matthew 23 mentions tithes. Jesus tells the religious leaders that they should tithe, but they should NOT neglect the weightier matters.
_____________________
Since you mention 2 Cor. 9:7, do you know what verse 6 says?
Do you know that in verse 3, Paul speaks of sending brothers on ahead so that they would be ready with their generous donation.
Did you know that the word "generous" is in 2 Corinthians chapter 9 FIVE (5) times (in the NIV)?
Mod
Free will giving = I am FREE To Give ... I am FREE Not To Give !
Spirit-led giving = I am FREE To OBEY ... I am FREE To DISOBEY !
There seems to be several assaults as to the prosperity of the Church; firstly let me state that religion can be fought but the gospel cannot be fought, men have fought religion and won but not the gospel, Jesus said ‘I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it’ Matt 16:18, secondly the recent prosperity in the Church (basically in the Pentecostal-charismatic Churches) has little to do with tithes and offering, rather it has a lot more to do with the population explosion being witnessed in those Churches, a Church with 100 people paying tithe and offering will hardly have enough to carry out outreaches much more paying fat salaries to their pastor, you get the point, people have been paying tithe and offering for so long and still had poor Churches, discouraging it by saying the Churches are too rich and the people are poor and still paying their tithes and offering makes no sense.
Now, does the bible teach us to pay tithes? Is it for the New Testament believer? Is there a reward when we give to God or is it all a scam to enrich pastors? I want to try my best possible to answer these questions in this article and scripturally too.
First of all a disclaimer, I understand that there are fraudsters masquerading as pastors all over the place, they exist all over the world and have long existed
2 Pet 2:1-3 ‘But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teaches among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through coveteousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgement now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not’
Phil 3:20 ‘Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly and whose glory is their shame, who mind earthly things’
They have existed for long and still exist, they put up false scriptures to try to get money from people’s pockets by tricks, I have always been a berean Christian activist, they were commended for searching the scriptures daily to know whether the things they were told were so Acts 17:11. If you’re not a berean Christian you will well easily be swindled.
Tithe has been a subject of controversy and of recent it is gaining a bit more attention, the first mention of tithe in the bible was given by Abraham Gen 14:18-20 and he gave the tithe to Melchizedek, subsequently Jacob gave tithe after he had a spiritual encounter Gen 28:22, the difference however is that when Abraham gave tithe we were not told he gave tithe again, just that once but Jacob vowed to give it continually as a honor to God. It’s worthy of note that there was no tithing law at this time, but they gave as led by the Spirit of God or of their own volition. I would therefore like to ‘take it for granted’ and say there was probably something in their tradition or belief system that says given a certain percentage (maybe 10%) of your income to a higher being was a sign of honor, because without prompting, they did not decide to cut off part of their hair in honor, or decide to sing a song by 12am in honor of their encounters, but they decided to give a tithe (of course in produce of livestock and other farm produce).
This act of honor taken by these men was subsequently given to Moses as a law in the old testament Lev 27:30-32, this tithe had a purpose, it was to be used in the financing of the temple of God Mal3:10 ‘Bring ye all the tithe into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house’, God endorsed and gave the tithe as a law in the old testament as the means of financing the work of the temple, it was used to pay the levites (who were full time devotees of the temple) and to finance every other activity within the temple. Now the levites were descendants of Levi a son of Jacob and they were not supposed to work, but serve the temple, they were paid from the tithe offered by the Israelites Numb 1:47-54, Numb 18:26, Heb 7:5.
So the first question, has it ever happened before that God took a person’s initiative or decision as led by the Spirit and established it for a greater purpose, and the answer is YES a simple example is baptism, baptism was originally used as a better form of washing, in the old testament whenever a spiritual activity was to be performed and there was need for sanctification they washed their hands and bodies generally Exodus 19:10 and so many other old testament scriptures, when John the Baptist came on the scene he began to ‘immerse’ people in water rather than just washing their hands, bodies and clothes, this was to symbolize a complete sanctification and purification as the idea was that their sins were so many and their whole selves needed to be completely immersed in water, this action started by one man became a revelation of the believer in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Rom 6:1-4.
In the same way tithing, though started by Abraham, we have no record of Isaac but carried out continually by Jacob was later picked up in the old testament as a useful tool for financing the temple of God.
Second question, should this be carried into the New Testament? Firstly Jesus endorsed it ‘Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not leave the other undone’ Matt 23:23. We need to ask ourselves, does the Church still need financing? Is it right for people in the New Testament to have their livelihood still from the house of God? And does God have a different format of financing his work in the New Testament other than tithe and offering? Cause if the Church still needs financing and the new testament approves that people can have their calling and livelihood as workers in God’s house and there is no alternative to this financing while we have no prove that the bible abolishes this method of financing in the new testament, then it makes no sense to claim that it should not be carried out by new testament believers.
Does the Church need financing? Jesus needed financing while he was here, he had financial partners that gave regularly to his work Luke 8:1-3, truth be told, we were not told how much of their substance they gave (but that’s not the point at this stage) but if Jesus that could feed five thousand men (excluding women and children) with five loaves of bread and two fishes and bring out money from the mouth of a fish to pay his tax needed financial partners, then brothers and sisters, the Church needs financing.
Is it right for people in the New Testament to have their livelihood from working in God’s house?
7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself. 2 Cor 11:7-9
In the above scripture Paul says he preached the gospel free of charge to the Corinthian Church and rather took ‘wages’ from other churches. When Jesus sent his disciples to go preach the gospel in Luke 10:1-9 he told them to take no purse (i.e hold no money) but whatsoever house they are accepted in they should eat whatever is presented to them, then he said ‘for the labourer is worthy of his hire’ in other words if you do kingdom work you can expect to have your livelihood from it.
Is there an alternative to tithe and offering in the new testament and has tithing and offering been completely abolished in the new testament? There is no scripture that says that tithe has been abolished in the new testament, there are rather scriptures that support tithing, the first of which is the one we have quoted from Jesus himself in Matt 23:23, the second is in Heb 7:1-12, now the scripture is so long and I wouldn’t post it on so please read it yourself, but here is what the author of the books says, Abraham paid tithe to Melchizedec, which makes whoever Melchizedec is higher than Abraham, the Levites are descendants of Abraham and they paid tithe in Abraham to Melchizedec, the Israelites paid tithe to the Levites, the Levitical priesthood was imperfect and abolished and a new priesthood was established in the order of Melchizedec, now the priesthood has not been abolished but upgraded, so tithing has not been abolished but upgraded.
Heb 7:8 (ESV) ‘In the one case tithes are received by mortal men (Israelites paying to Levites) but in the other case by one of whom it is testified that he lives (Abraham paying to Melchizedec)
So there is a new priest, his name is Jesus, he is after the order of Melchizedec, just like tithing was not a law to Abraham but an innate recognition of honor to a higher priest, it is not a law to us, we do it to honor our high priest and in so doing financing the work of the Kingdom.