YA LGBT Books discussion

Our Aug-Sept Book of the Month read is Carry On by Rainbow Rowell - with luck this will have good availability for our members - read and comment at any time.

A #1 New York Times-bestseller

Simon Snow is the worst Chosen One who's ever been chosen.

That's what his roommate, Baz, says. And Baz might be evil and a vampire and a complete git, but he's probably right.

Half the time, Simon can't even make his wand work, and the other half, he starts something on fire. His mentor's avoiding him, his girlfriend broke up with him, and there's a magic-eating monster running around, wearing Simon's face. Baz would be having a field day with all this, if he were here — it's their last year at the Watford School of Magicks, and Simon's infuriating nemesis didn't even bother to show up.

Carry On - The Rise and Fall of Simon Snow is a ghost story, a love story and a mystery. It has just as much kissing and talking as you'd expect from a Rainbow Rowell story - but far, far more monsters.


This thread is for discussion of this book - there is no specific reading schedule and you may post at any time. There may be spoilers in the comments, so be aware if you have not yet finished. Especially if you are posting early in the two months, please try to put real plot spoilers into a spoiler-hiding tag - write <*spoiler> before the text and <*/spoiler> at the end of it - with both * removed to make it work, and it will be hidden, revealed only (view spoiler)[ to those who choose to read it. (hide spoiler)]

I look forward to seeing what the group thinks of this one.

I'm currently not reading this book with the group but I did read it last year and I loved it so much. Would love to know what you are thinking of it? :D

Just got my copy - looking forward to it.

ONE OF THE BEST BOOKS YOU WILL EVER READ

Kaje wrote: "Just got my copy - looking forward to it."

Ditto.

Eric-the-ever-dittoing-Kaje

Cool

Kaje-the-ever-flattered-by-Eric <3

BTW, interesting shift on the book cover; what do people think?

Old cover:

New Cover:

I think they are both nice but I prefer the old one. It's the one I have :)

This looks amazing! I don't know when I'll have time to read it, but I'm adding it to my to-read-list right now.

I like the second cover--I love the dynamic vibe that the action poses give it, but the first is lovely too.

I'm sure you've all experienced the AMZ "you might also like"/"others also bought" list of book covers in a horizontal row below the info about a book you're looking at.

Assuming I knew nothing about the author or the the book, and I saw the first cover in that row, I wouldn't click it to look further. I would definitely click the second cover. It's much more powerful, IMNHO.

Just my USD .02.

Eric

IMO I think the first really says nothing about the book - I can't even tell if those faces are male or female or non-binary, happy or sad. To me, the only selling point is based on the author's name, and I'm kind of surprised it did so well. It is distinct enough that once the book has word-of-mouth it would be instantly recognizable, so that might work for a top author. (In fact, I heard about the book and saw the cover for a long time before checking it out, and being surprised to find it was fantasy, having assumed contemporary.)

Without some knowledge, I'd never bother to check that first one out, though, while the second one appeals to me - it tells me a lot more about what's in the book, and has a fun fantasy appeal.

This has been on my TBR shelf for quite some time. I agree that the second cover is more dynamic, although I'd have probably mistaken it for Manga and given it a miss.

That's an issue too - drawn covers can have a particular connotation - the most recent Heidi Cullinan I read has that issue - it is about a college artist doing manga, but is a thoughtful contemporary fiction. Antisocial (And it is okay for YA in my opinion and a great book with varied characters including an aroace secondary character who uses "they' pronouns - nice to see representation.)

Kaje wrote: "That's an issue too - drawn covers can have a particular connotation - the most recent Heidi Cullinan I read has that issue - it is about a college artist doing manga, but is a thoughtful contempor..."

Oh, wow - yes that's very much in that style, but fitting for the story by the sounds of it.

It does fit, very well, but might cause some readers to not pick up the story assuming it is Manga, rather than about a real person doing Manga. A choice, and perhaps it will appeal to a younger audience this way (and most of her work is very much not YA, so it's not a bad thing to distinguish.) But as much as I adore all her books, I almost passed on this, until I saw a review, just because of that cover. I wonder if, on a YA, it pulls more readers in, as opposed to among people my age.

Perhaps that was a calculated choice by the publishers of Carry On, trying to reach the teen audience as opposed to adult readers of YA.

There's actually a funny thing with the covers, the major publishers when printing a cover, will look at patterns and motifs used by recent best sellers and other upcoming releases, then will copy those trends.

This past winter, Purple/Pink/Yellow chromatic splotches was a huge trend in the general YA. Meanwhile YA LGBT has its own trends; trichromatic silhouettes has been a huge trend, which is what the original cover released with.

Now, the general YA is moving on to character covers, so Carry On's new cover is picking up that style to try to garner more of the main YA audience.

wow, that's really interesting ^
(sorry, I don't know how to reply to comments)

That is super interesting, though not really surprising- you can definitely see it happening, I remember first noticing it when handed my first YA novel as a 12yo - it had wonerful, big silver letters for the author's name and looked so *adult* (it was Christopher Pike fyi, and looked a lot like a Stephen King of the time, so i guess it helped place it at a glance pretty well!).

And that's the thing, for me - the new Carry On cover, for me, looks younger, I guess, and also like it's more of an adventure focused book, not people and relationship driven, iykwim? So personally, while Carry On is one of my all time favourite books (and that's a seriously select group out of a *lot* of candidates lol) I'd have passed on the second cover.

But then, I'm not its target audience, I guess (I'm in my 30s), although after I read it I handed it to my then 12yo son (he LOVED it, and was crushed Ms Rowell hasn't written more like it, as it's one of his select favourites now too (and he reads at least four novels a week)) and my now 12yo daughter is currently reading it, although I'm not sure it'll be as much her cup of tea (she prefers serious classics of Australian literature, childrens classics and poetry, which she grasps far faster than i do, and comics and manga. Last year for her book fair she came as her then favourite book character - Beatrice from Much Ado About Nothing lmao, which she read after much household debate after she devoured a comic Shakespeare series and declaring his stories crap lol. I think she understood more of the story on first read (in original form) than i did on first read as a teen, which is embarrassing in a good way lol). I'll let you know what she thinks of Carry On!
So that's my 2c worth (though I'm Australian, so I'll have to bow to your stronger dollar, Eric 😉)

I like the new cover... it tells so much more at a glance. The dragon, the wand, the sword, the two boys... right away I think gay sword/sorcery fantasy.

The old cover was very generic and didn't give me a clue of genre until reading the blurb.

I read Carry On a while ago, so I don't remember details, but I didn't like it much. It read too much like a Harry Potter rip-off, and the romance felt like it was written more for straight girls than for gay boys, if that makes sense.

Kaje wrote: "IMO I think the first really says nothing about the book - I can't even tell if those faces are male or female or non-binary, happy or sad. To me, the only selling point is based on the author's na..."

I also got a contempory fiction vibe from the first cover, which can be confusing considering Rainbow Rowell mostly writes contemporary anyways. However, Fangirl was pretty well-read, so author/title recognition probably was a big selling point for Carry On. I personally wouldn't pick up the book solely on the basis of either cover though.

the whole point of the book is that it links to Harry Potter, almost like fan-fic from Cath in 'Fangirl'

maria wrote: "the whole point of the book is that it links to Harry Potter, almost like fan-fic from Cath in 'Fangirl'"

I know that, and I thought the whole Simon Snow/Harry Potter thing was a cute idea in Fangirl, which I enjoyed. Carry On is good for a Harry Potter parody, but I don't think it stands on its own merits well enough to be a good novel.

Well, I have to say I'm glad I'm not imagining things. According to my Voyage, I'm at 22%...which is where I'm paused. I'm finding myself having difficulty getting involved in the lead.

If you really care about the lead character(s), get immersed in their on-page lives, you can have anything from a nice emotional experience by the time you read book's end, all the way across the spectrum to such a powerful emotional experience that it leaves you wrung out.

My difficulty lies in the Harry Potter similarities. Granted, given the whole HP phenomenon, it's going to take a careful and talented writer to create a magical school and mundanes/magicians and a youthful hero, which won't be seen as
a rip-off/parody/homage/whatever to HP.

My mind keeps jabbing me with "this is a take-off on Harry" "this is a take-off on Hermione"...etc. I fully realize that there are enough differences that this isn't a rip-off, but there are enough similarities that reading is almost becoming a quest to see what the next similarity will be.

I rarely don't finish a book, but I'm glad there's plenty of time for this readathon, as I'm not involved in it enough to just plow on through.

Just my USD .02.

Eric

Bobby wrote: "I read Carry On a while ago, so I don't remember details, but I didn't like it much. It read too much like a Harry Potter rip-off, and the romance felt like it was written more for straight girls t..."
Im curious what makes you feel that it's more 'for straight girls than gay boys'?
(full disclosure: I'm a bi woman who loved it, so more the former category i guess, but my son also loves it, though he's not gay, but not straight either...so I'm genuinely curious what makes that difference for you?)

NeverTooManyBooks wrote: "Bobby wrote: "I read Carry On a while ago, so I don't remember details, but I didn't like it much. It read too much like a Harry Potter rip-off, and the romance felt like it was written more for st..."

It's kind of hard to explain, and note that I read it over a year ago so I might just be talking out of my tush here. I won't get into the whole argument about fetishization and M/M fanfiction, but in Fangirl, the romance between Simon and Baz was a slash pairing written by a straight girl, and that vibe bled over into Carry On. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree, but my impression of the romance was that it was rather superficial, designed more to make you swoon over it than actually empathize with the characters falling in love (or maybe it was just that I struggled to identify with either of the characters so I didn't personally feel represented by their romance?). Now that I think about it, I guess my original statement wasn't entirely accurate since swooning over hot fictional gay guys isn't exclusive to girls, but Rainbow Rowell does write for a predominantly female readership. However, I will also admit that I read through some of the top reviews before commenting to remind myself of how the book went, and the vibe I got from those definitely influenced my statement at least a little.

Bobby wrote: "NeverTooManyBooks wrote: "Bobby wrote: "I read Carry On a while ago, so I don't remember details, but I didn't like it much. It read too much like a Harry Potter rip-off, and the romance felt like ..."

It's interesting that your impressions from Fangirl influenced how you felt about Carry On. Did everyone else find that, too?

For me, while i enjoyed Fangirl ok, i didn't love it, and actually didn't really like the fanfic inserts that evetually led to Carry On much at all - though I love CO, for its humour and self-reliant characters mostly, but also the way it's unselfconsciously meta, and just plain fun. I really liked the way it reflected the potential intensity of high school infatuation, and the feeling of trying to sort out what was important, and i liked the way the romance unfolded in Carry On - but high school was a pretty long time ago for me, so 😉

And the fact that my son enjoyed it probably doesnt lend much to this debate, either, since he reads pretty widely and atypically, and isnt really on any spectrum of sexuality at this stage (in primary school i actually had a call because the school librarian was concerned about his choices in reading material. She wanted me to know he was reading *pink*books, like, for girls. UGH, yes, she was serious 😣)

My personal feeling is that I think the story of CO isn't necessarily aimed at girls, the marketing does seem to place it as a 'pink' book? Which i guess ties back into covers, too?

And yeah, I was asking Robin Reardon similar questions from her pov as a(n awesome, published) author of m/m stories about why she chooses to write there, and how authors stay out of that whole fetishisation area, too lol in the Waiting for Walker read thread 😀

I haven't read "Fangirl" but I'm not taken with the writing style so far. I do think the new cover fits it well - sketchy on the edge of parody. Of course, I also liked but didn't love Harry Potter - I thought there were better YA magic books out there. But this one has not yet sucked me in. Hopefully it will. Or perhaps it will work as humor without the depth, something more light and fluffy.

For those who already read and loved it, you might check out Lord of the White Hell, Book 1 and The Student Prince - both have one scene of more on-page sex in them, making them borderline YA, but both are excellent student/magic books (SP is Merlin fanfic and free, and funnier; White Hell is more serious) with characters who have real depth to them.

Kaje wrote: "It does fit, very well, but might cause some readers to not pick up the story assuming it is Manga, rather than about a real person doing Manga. A choice, and perhaps it will appeal to a younger au..."

Regarding Antisocial, per her Patreon blog, Cullinan really intentionally pushed for that manga-style cover and even commissioned a specific artist for it, both because of the content tie-in and because of her current obsession with Yuri!!! on Ice . =)

Oh yes, I can imagine she did - Yuri is her thing for sure- and it is a great representation of how the art in the story is central to that story. ZAM did it for her book about a manga artist years ago too. It's just a choice and I think will skew audience a bit - although the wide popularity of Yuri may be bringing a love of anime and an emotional connection to anime characters to people who had not tried manga, or who did not like the strong role restrictions of much yaoi.

Well, it worked out middle of the road for me - it definitely got better after a lack-luster start. My review:

3.5 stars, rounded up for brining a gay YA book to bestseller lists. I wasn't taken by the beginning of this book - it is very clearly Harry Potteresque, and yet it felt too sketchy to be homage, and not funny enough to be parody. It was like someone took HP and Lord of the White Hell, Book 1 and smooshed the two books together while leaving out the best parts of each.

It did eventually get better - despite too many narrative POVs, I did get interested in the main characters and the resolution of the plot. I liked the last 25% a lot more than the first. There is some imagination and some humor there, and outcomes I did not expect. There are a few holes, but not awful ones. Not everyone was heroic, or evil. Saving yourself was presented as a plausible life choice, not a total moral failing. The romance between Simon and Baz stays low-key and tentative, and that's fine. This book veers in the opposite direction from much of YA, with emotions sketched in lightly or left to the reader's imagination. IMO it swings too far into a failure to connect with the main characters, but it may provide readers with a refreshing change from over-emotionalism of some YA stories. Not a bad read, with entertaining moments, but I feel that it has been done better and not just by HP. Unless very small amounts of on-page sex are an issue, read Lord of the White Hell, Book 1 series or the free Merlin fanfic The Student Prince for a more talented writing style and connection with the characters.

I read Carry On about a year ago, and I can't remember much about about it, which is not a good sign because I can remember obscure details about books that I've read an obscenely long time ago (which is a terrible super power unless you're a librarian, lucky me).

The only thing I do remember is that I had a really hard time empathizing with Simon.

I agree with Kaje; Ginn Hale's series is a great read-alike. I liked it (and remember it) much more than Carry On.

I can't help but mention another book in the same fanfiction vein as Carry On: A Hero at the End of the World. It's more of a satire, and it does sort-of escape the YA genre because of the characters' ages. I thought it was a much better example of fanfic novelization.

I was going to mention Claiborne's Hero book too, Rez, as I also particularly enjoyed that.

<3 What is your favorite Rowell, Natalie?

Speaking of other Rowell novels, Eleanor & Park is on the Top 10 list of Banned and Challenged Books of 2016. The list was published in April during National Library Week in the US, and because of Banned Books Week this month, there's all kinds of new infographics to go along with the list: available here

I re-read Carry On like every other month because it charges my soul and it's my favorite book of all time and it's so beautiful!!!!

Adrien wrote: "I re-read Carry On like every other month because it charges my soul and it's my favorite book of all time and it's so beautiful!!!!"

It's so cool when a book can do that for you.

Yay! I'm a bit of a Carry On re-reader, too ;-)

And I've got the verdict back from my 12yo daughter - she loved Carry On, and when asked to elaborate, told me her favourite part was the story arc with the Mage (her explaination as to why was quite long and in depth, and involved a lot of spoliers, so I'll just leave it at that). She then went on to blush and say that she also really loved the bit with Baz and Simon in the forest, under the tree (and I could just about hear an entire fandom swoon along with her, lol ;-))

I'm really understanding the joy my Nanna got sitting and reading her favourite kids picture books with my kids when they were little, now that I can begin to share some of my YA/suitable adult favourites with them - and each likes different things, so it's cool trying to see who'd like what, too, and match them up.

Carry On is the first YA LGBT+ mc pairing I've handed to them, (I think?), and I love that both she and her brother (he read it when he was 12, too) loved it for different things - but neither of them even commented on it being LGBT, it's not even a thing worth mentioning for them, to them people are people, a story is a story - makes me have hope for the world, yeah? ;-)

My daughters only complaint? She wishes the middlemiddle child would hurry up and read it (he's 11 and refuses to read anything i reccommend on principle atm lol), so that we can discuss the plot and compare favourite spells (mine's the star wars related one near the end;-)), without 'spoilering' it for him ;-)

I'm looking forward to sharing I'll Give You the Sun with them too, when they're a bit older, since that's another one I think they'll maybe all enjoy but for different reasons.

<3 how lovely that your family enjoyed it, and even more, as you say, that the LGBTQ content wasn't that salient for your kids, just a natural thing. <3 <3

The new cover is 100% better

Like the majority, this is re-read for me. I first read it early this year (as an eBook), where I then went and bought the paperback (only a week later, this the new cover released, ahh the frustration!).

Although most of the criticism towards this novel is its’ multiple parallels to Harry Potter and cheesy romance, which put lots of hardcore Harry Potter off, however that one of the reasons I loved this book. I adored this quirky take on the chosen one trope and all the obvious references to Harry Potters (Drarry). I believe that it was Rainbow Rowell’s intent from the beginning to make a novel, which took the trope we know and love/hate and throw it into a fun and light-heart fantasy romance.

As for the romance, the trend applies, although the relationship was fully fleshed out and developed, the excellent chemistry mixed with the fanfiction fuelled the imagination of all fandoms shippers (myself, included) could latch onto this adorable couple faster. The fact that explicit M/M romance is driving plot point in the best selling novel warmed my rep deprived heart. Speaking of representation, can we take a moment to appreciate Penny, I loved her sassy character, who also happened to be Indian (insert quick head nod of approval to Rowell).

There were a driving plot and mystery to this book, along with romance gush, which pushed the story as a whole forward, making this a very quick and adventure filled read.

I’ve said once, and I'll say it again, I loved this book and this pick anything Rainbow Rowell throws at me.

4.5 stars

I loved Carry on, for obvious reason. Good character development, quick humour, I laughed aloud a lot. And one of the things I keep remembering about it is the Magic narrative. The idea that words and phrases used enough have weight and power simply by being used over and over. It makes sense to me, and appeals to my brain, and reminds me a lot of Terry Pratchett's version of how magic actually works. It makes a lot more sense than 'I has a wand, it does magicy things,'
I find myself thinking of phrases and what kind of spells they could turn into.

Of course, the Romance between shiny golden boy and broody, violin playing vampire boy is like, perfect, and will never not drag me down into fandom depths.

I don´t know you... But I need the new cover!!!! I have the old in spanish...

I like the new one a lot better too.