Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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Without Excuse!
Robert wrote: "Believe God when He says that He has revealed
Himself to everyone, and that
no one has a valid excuse
for rejecting God!
Romans 1:19-20
19 Because that which may be known of God is manife..."
That was written by one or more humans, I suggest.
Demonstrate that Yahweh or Jesus or the Holy Ghost had anything to with those specific words.
Without excuses ...
Stuart wrote: "That was written by one or more humans, I suggest. Demonstrate that Yahweh or Jesus or the Holy Ghost had anything to with those specific words...."No demonstration is needed. You KNOW it already !
If you did not KNOW the reality of God already, you would NOT be so DESPERATE to pretend He does not exist.
You are without excuse!
Robert - one has no excuses if one is of "the Elect", which fortunately for us we are. Some are Satan-possessed from birth and have no pathway to Salvation. Give the devil his due!
Robert wrote: "Robert - one has no excuses if one is of "the Elect", which fortunately for us we are. Some are Satan-possessed from birth and have no pathway to Salvation. Give the devil his due!"Romans 1:19-20
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for GOD HATH SHEWED IT UNTO THEM .
20 For the invisible things of him from the CREATION of the world are CLEARLY SEEN , being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE :
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The elect are those whom God foreknew would or would not believe.
John 6:64-65
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe , and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, “ This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Thanks for Biblically proving my point, Robert!
Romans 1:24God gave them up.
Could God have Not given them up? Could He have tried harder? Changed their nature? Or like Jeremiah- had a plan for him from birth, and made His plan successful?
Rod wrote: "Romans 1:24 God gave them up. Could God have Not given them up? Could He have tried harder? Changed their nature? Or like Jeremiah- had a plan for him from birth, and made His plan successful?"My response: There is a reason God gave them up. If they were "elect" according to your definition, why would God have "given them up"? He chose them to damnation.
However, if they are elect according to the Biblical definition, then it is very valid for God to give them up.
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John 6:64-65
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe , and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, “ This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Of course Jesus knows His and the fathers plan. He knows who will betray him. God knows who are not His children. (Technically everyone - unless God decides otherwise and gives out faith and a new nature).Read Jeremiah chapter 1. God planned Jeremiah's life. He even makes His Word come to fruition.
Robert do you think God's word is at the mercy of His crystal ball fortune telling? Or does God's word create history?
God doesn't give up His elect. He doesn't lose any. He gives Satan's children fully over to their evil. Did you think there was hope for Judas? Don't you think God chose him for that job? Based on his nature?
Rod wrote: "Of course Jesus knows His and the fathers plan. He knows who will betray him. God knows who are not His children. (Technically everyone - unless God decides otherwise and gives out faith and a new ..."My response: Ahhhh... but you did not read verse 65! It is BECAUSE Jesus FOREKNEW who believes and who doesn't that He could say...
that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 6:64-65
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe , and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, “ This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Rod wrote: "God doesn't give up His elect. He doesn't lose any. He gives Satan's children fully over to their evil. Did you think there was hope for Judas? Don't you think God chose him for that job? Based o..."
My response: No, I don't THINK it... God says it... ONE out of TWELVE was LOST!
John 17:12 - "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
Yes yes, your foreknowing crystal ball. Your God is at its mercy. My God creates the future.
Rod wrote: "Yes yes, your foreknowing crystal ball. Your God is at its mercy. My God creates the future."
My response: Interesting how you CANNOT QUOTE your god saying that he creates the future.
I regularly QUOTE My God saying that He gets His way done WITHOUT FORCING people.
Rod calls it a CRYSTAL BALL ...
God calls it FOREKNOWLEDGE !
Who is right? God or Rod?
John 6:64-65
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe , and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, “ This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 6:64-6564 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe , and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, “ This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
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Romans 8:29 - "For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
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1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
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John 6:70 - "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve , and one of you is a devil?"
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John 13:11 - "For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean."
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Psalm 139:2-4
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways .
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether .
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Heb 4:13 - "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do ."
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1 John 3:20 - "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things ."
So scripture (God's Word) created history. God didn't look into time for it. His foreknowledge is going - not coming. God chooses
Rod wrote: "So scripture (God's Word) created history. God didn't look into time for it. His foreknowledge is going - not coming. God chooses"
Your God FORCES most people into HELL.
The true God of the Bible offers salvation to EVERYONE... and whosoever will call on the Lord will be saved!
Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people ."
Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
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A REAL OFFER of salvation from God to everyone... and a REAL CHOICE that everyone must make to accept or reject the offer.
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Note: I validated my convictions with the Bible. Can you?
Again I noticed your complete lack of ANY Scripture... yet you REJECT the MANY passages that I quoted.
Why is that? (Hint: NOWHERE in the Bible does God teach that He forces people into hell.)
Did you read Jeremiah chapter 1 yet? I'll wait...
Rod wrote: "Did you read Jeremiah chapter 1 yet? I'll wait..."MANY TIMES.
It does NOT say that God FORCES people into hell. Please quote the verse(s).
Please quote any verse in the Bible that says God FORBIDS any human from coming to repentance.
Since I asked you, allow me to begin...
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2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance ."
Titus 2:11 - "For the
grace
of God has appeared that
offers salvation to all people
."Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
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A REAL OFFER of salvation from God to everyone... and a REAL CHOICE that everyone must make to accept or reject the offer.
You missed the point. Did you learn nothing from Jeremiah?
You keep quoting the same verses Robert: which tells us you aren't thinking.
Rod wrote: "You missed the point. Did you learn nothing from Jeremiah?"Yes indeed... I learned that God FOREKNEW Jeremiah!
Jeremiah 1:5 - " Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee ..."
Just like God says everywhere else...
1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
Rod wrote: "You keep quoting the same verses Robert: which tells us you aren't thinking."You keep NOT quoting Scripture, which tells us that you are elevating your own OPINIONS over the Word of God.
That's not the Jeremiah verse that I hoped you would find. look again: chapter 1....but how can God know someone who doesn't exist? Be sure to use the word "KNOW" carefully.
Rod wrote: "That's not the Jeremiah verse that I hoped you would find. look again: chapter 1....but how can God know someone who doesn't exist? Be sure to use the word "KNOW" carefully."
Why would I REJECT this verse? It is in agreement with the rest of the Bible. Election based on foreknowledge.
Jeremiah 1:5 - " Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee ..."
Buddy - we both know not to reject ANY verse. But to see how it fits systematically with all of scripture. Hint: God makes His word happen ---/ possibly that is why He has millions of angels and demons. (And horsemen of the apocalypse!!!)
Rod wrote: "Buddy - we both know not to reject ANY verse. But to see how it fits systematically with all of scripture. Hint: God makes His word happen ---/ possibly that is why He has millions of angels and ..."
Hint: God gives people FREE WILL and He is SO SOVEREIGN that He gets His will done WITHOUT USURPING man's free will.
NOW THAT IS SOVEREIGN!
Jeremiah 1:5God knew himself and His plan in Jeremiah. He also knew Jeremiah's salvation and his nature. God didn't crystal ball it - He designed and planned it. Did Jeremiah have his freewill abused? Maybe... but what a blessing eternally.
Rod wrote: "Jeremiah 1:5God knew himself and His plan in Jeremiah. He also knew Jeremiah's salvation and his nature. God didn't crystal ball it - He designed and planned it. Did Jeremiah have his freewill abused? Maybe... but what a blessing eternally..."
What the Word of God ACTUALLY says...
Jeremiah 1:5 - " Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee ..."
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The difference is Rod needs all types of mental gymnastics to try and get his opinion validated... all I need to do is QUOTE Scripture.
You're the one doing gymnastics Robert. My biblical God simply knew everything Jeremiah was planned to be.
Your God did what now?
So how did your God know someone who didn't exist in a free universe?
Rod wrote: "You're the one doing gymnastics Robert. My biblical God simply knew everything Jeremiah was planned to be.
Your God did what now?"
NOPE! I am the one quoting Scripture... thus you must be accusing the Author of "mental gymnastics".
Rod wrote: "So how did your God know someone who didn't exist in a free universe?"My God KNOWS EVERYTHING.
How can you follow an IMPOTENT god who does NOT know everything?
But how does He know the free choices of man? My God knows because He creates and controls parameters. Your God knows because...?
You've never explained your foreknowledge. It's not a magic word Robert. Our God is logical and purposeful.
Rod wrote: "But how does He know the free choices of man?..."My response: OMNISCIENCE!
Rod wrote: You've never explained your foreknowledge. It's not a magic word Robert. Our God is logical and purposeful..."My response: Perhaps, like the Trinity, KNOWING EVERYTHING is inexplicable by those who CAN'T know everything.
I have no desire to LIMIT God... just because I cannot explain "foreknowledge".
But Biblical usage does give us some indications as to what it means...
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Here are examples...
Acts 26:5 - "Which knew me from the beginning , if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
2 Peter 3:17 - "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before , beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
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Both of the above examples are of the word "foreknowledge" used in the Bible.
Be very careful with English translations and words like omniscience.
Acts 26:5 is not magic insight. It is a good use of the word though. But if I Know Math - doesn't mean I look through history and foreseen it. It means it makes sense and is experienced and applicable knowledge.
2 Peter 3:17Knowing beforehand...
Takes the magic away doesn't it? If we know in the same way as God - then He's not very omniscient.
This is about Knowing because you have information. God has endless planning and strategy information. This doesn't mean He looks through the corridors of time.
He has knowledge of how things work- perfect knowledge- not crystal ball knowledge.
In Genesis why does God go down to have a look if He has future seeing omniscience?
Rod wrote: "Be very careful with English translations and words like omniscience."My response: Not to worry... I checked the original languages.
Rod wrote: "Acts 26:5 is not magic insight. It is a good use of the word though. But if I Know Math - doesn't mean I look through history and foreseen it. It means it makes sense and is experienced and appli..."
My response: Definitely not magic insight. It demonstrates that "foreknowledge" is NOT forcing something to happen.
Rod wrote: "2 Peter 3:17Knowing beforehand...
Takes the magic away doesn't it? If we know in the same way as God - then He's not very omniscient.
This is about Knowing because you have information. God has ..."
My response: I don't believe in MAGIC... I believe in the OMNISCIENCE... and ALL KNOWING and INFINITE God.
Rod wrote: "2 Peter 3:17Knowing beforehand...
Takes the magic away doesn't it? If we know in the same way as God - then He's not very omniscient.
This is about Knowing because you have information. God has ..."
Again, this verse does NOT allow for FORCING the end result and USURPING God given free will.
It demonstrates KNOWING specifics from BEFORE and doing something about the KNOWN specifics.
You can end this discussion easily Rod. Simply quote ONE verse that tells us that God FORCES MOST people into HELL.
The
REASON
why Jesus said that "no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father” is...FOREKNOWLEDGE of who would or would not BELIEVE!
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John 6:64-65
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe , and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, “ This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Be EVEN MORE careful with the original languages. Don't read more into them than is there.
Your still giving the same boring argument: dig deeper Robert.It would be fun if I changed my mind... so far: nothing. I'm actually even more convinced.
God doesn't select people to go to hell - we all deserve hell. He simply saves some for his good pleasure
Rod wrote: "Be EVEN MORE careful with the original languages. Don't read more into them than is there."This is NOT my problem... IT IS YOURS!
Romans 1:19-20
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for GOD HATH SHEWED IT UNTO THEM .
20 For the invisible things of him from the CREATION of the world are CLEARLY SEEN , being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE :