Our Shared Shelf discussion

"Change is the only thing that is constant."
And yet I feel there is a human psychology to pull back from change,because we become way too comfortable at one place,doing one thing,living a particular way.In short,just doing things the way they ought to be done.

There are a few questions that have been pondering my mind when I think about another wave of feminism gripping hold.

I wonder sometimes,whether people in my country or any other country would actually accept these changing notions of more freedom.Thus,my topic for discussion.Do you think that many years later,your answers to my questions might just come true?

1.Do you think that in about 20-50 years from now,will girls still be afraid to travel at night on the lonely streets?Will they or shall they still be scared of "rapists" lurking in the shadows?

2.Do you think that parents who today can unquestionably send their sons to parties at night,will one day be able to do the same for their girls?Or will generations of girls to come,die to live a free day unquestionably?

3.Do you think that a few years later from today we could have parents who teach their children differently from their own parents?Or will the same tradition of biased stereotypical teaching continue to take place?

4,Do you think that 40-50 years from now ,girls could have muscles and biceps and not be judged for being strong(or manly as they call it)?

5.Do you think domestic violence could see a downfall soon?Or would the archetypal denotion of women as weak continue till the day humanity will cease to exist?

These might seem very basic concerns as compared to a 50-50 cabinet or pay gap,but these are foundation stones or rather the source of generations of suppression.

I don't know whether your answers to these questions will be positive or negative,but if they are negative,you as an individual adult need to think that, why is it that walking into the 21st century these concerns are still existing?Are we breeding them while resenting them or we are as ignorant of them while making money,as our ancestors were?Are we really even trying to change them somehow?Or are we still as scared as our past generations?

Love to hear all your reviews and evaluations!

Ashna :)

Ashna wrote: ""Change is the only thing that is constant."
And yet I feel there is a human psychology to pull back from change,because we become way too comfortable at one place,doing one thing,living a particul..."

I would hope we can effect these changes sooner than 30 - 40 years. I would be looking for substantial progress in 10 years. It is possible things do get better each year it can seem like we go back but in truth, we move forward.

The sexism of the past casual even regarded as normal is not any longer even in parts of the world women have little direct influence international condemnation and support is there.

Short Answer yes we can and will achieve all those things Ashna.

I think the world needs more optimists like Ross, as optimism brings action :)

Keith wrote: " Ashna wrote:”I wonder sometimes, whether people in my country or any other country would actually accept these changing notions of more freedom.....

This is an interesting starting point – does ..."

Thank you Kieth for your comprehensive answers.

Cat wrote: "I want to believe that the world that I live in can change towards the better.

To answer your questions respectively,
1. Yes. I think even after 50 years, girls will have to fear the dark. Even i..."

Cat I don't want to say it for some of my own conscious reasons.But I guess,i couldn't agree less.

I hope we can have more reviews on this,because it has started to become more like a win-predictor in a cricket match.

Just putting in a reminder for what you think about these questions.

:D

We had a skype session as we do every week unashamed plug. We have people from all over the world and cultures some of the things women still have to deal with would shock even the worldly people of OSS.

What we found in terms of progress was, It is happening world wide but not in a linear fashion East or west some progress and some regression occur so in 50 years women will have equality they could have in 30 or 15 or 10 it depends solely on the work of feminists and their supporters now. Feminist leaders have a role and need to step up to that but it is the grass roots feminist that need to affect the change why because they are the very people and countries which you refer too.

Bare in mind, all countries are just groups of people no country can be seen from space. you do not have to move whole cultures just individuals one at a time until the government gets the message and change happens. despite the gloomy forecast in some assessments, no one is saying equality will never happen why because it is seen almost every day we have gay marriage people predicted less than 8 years ago that would take a century at least. Time is not the factor focused positive action and just not standing for it anymore is.

Ashna wrote: ""Change is the only thing that is constant."
And yet I feel there is a human psychology to pull back from change,because we become way too comfortable at one place,doing one thing,living a particul..."

Hey Ashna

Those are indeed good questions. I do truly believe that with the time things will gradually change although maybe in some countries faster than others. As someone who had the chance to live in different countries and cultures I can definitely say that progress is not linear.

Where today you see countries where women can walk with more confidence at night and parents allowing their daughters to go to parties etc just like with their sons, we also see some completely different reactions on this topic in other parts of the world.

I think a great tool for change is learning about the progress that is being done in different parts of the world and try to adapt. For example, from personal experience, my parents although they were from an older generation from my friends parents I would call them more open minded on topics such as feminism because they had the chance to live abroad and learn and understand that the world is changing.

So maybe now that we have internet and information about everything is more accessible, if not our parents then we can start and make the change. So like how now you are making these questions and you are trying to learn and adapt to the changes so are million other young people from our generation.

Of course it will take time especially for countries that are still very conservative and have different norms and beliefs but gradually they'll see a change too.

Ok. So anytime people ask questions like this I always feel that either comes down to the generations. Ideas that become trends do not come out of nowhere.

Because of "Silent Spring" and other events effecting the 80's, children in the 90s grew up with Captain Planet and Earth Days that helped make the millenial generation and their parents more eco friendly than Boomer. Yes, there bell curves that show population acceptance, but in general it's easier to convince parents and children than it is to convince Congress or businesses.

So when you ask your 5 questions I look to the parents today to see how they will raise their kids. And we can see the trends of parents being more supportive of choice ( gender identification, sexuality).

Also: these thoughts are based on opinions from a white woman living in the states. To Ross point, feminism ebbs and flows across the globe with all different fights.

1) Will girls still be afraid to travel at night on the lonely streets?

Right now, the cultural Norm is everyone is a rapist. But we are teaching our children about consent. And we are teaching our sons what no is.

I'm optimistic that (if we are still walking and not teleporting or using a new disruptive technology) that the concept of danger will not be as high. Will people still fear the night with shadowed corners. Yes. Will it bc of rapists... I don't think so.

2. This really comes down to parents.

A- my brother was given the same rigamoreol as I was when it came to evening entertainment. We had a curfew.
B- following Keith's comment, I think we had a push for more friendship based parenting, which failed spectacularly. I am hoping that more structure will become the new born, but it's quite possible that friendship focused parenting will remain the norm for some time.

3.Do you think that a few years later from today we could have parents who teach their children differently from their own parents?Or will the same tradition of biased stereotypical teaching continue to take place?

Parents will always influence their children's role as a parent. children mimic their parents, learning from them. Accepting what they do is how things are done. Until they see some other way of doing things via friends, family, strangers a world away through books or internet.

Change occurs when a- the person rejects everything their parents teach them due to trauma or otherwise awful conditions creating a schism between the idea that parents know beat and the child. Or with technology and job growth. As technology advances we can see more about the other and learn that maybe our parents did or did not know best.

So yes, the same thoughts will be taught from parent to child, but as our world expands so does these lessons.

4,Do you think that 40-50 years from now ,girls could have muscles and biceps and not be judged for being strong(or manly as they call it)?

Weightlifting/ MMA/ crossfit is very supportive of women with muscels.

5.Do you think domestic violence could see a downfall soon?Or would the archetypal denotion of women as weak continue till the day humanity will cease to exist?

Here in the states: it is seeing a growth only as it's been ok to report these kind of things. Before it was the norm for a husband to teach his wife, getting a stick that was no bigger than two finger thick. This is now frowned upon.

In India, my only knowledge is based on the Pink Sari Gang in the UP. The leader... Sampat pal(?) is doing what she can to at least get men to be punished for doing these things and cleaning up the corruption. So I think there is hope that DV will end. 50 years from will put a good dent in it. Maybe not end it, but put a dent.. yes

Those questions can be answered on the long way, ... but I will give you exact answer with an anti-question, which you will know the answer for.

Do you think that the wars would stop one day?

So, now you know the answer to your questions ;)

However, to change this big ideals in society, individuals have to change, majority of individuals, not only those who lead the world. But also ordinary people. The answers you are looking for here are more psychological nature, so it has to be answered from an concept that can explain individuals behaviour the same as behaviour of society.

T

Before I join in the discussion, I would like to stress out that our basic instincts, fears and insecurities cannot be written out of our human genome. We can mask, hide or ignore it but never wipe out because on that basis is how we make our judgements and decisions. The only difference is which is your dominant thought. From that, we condition our mind. Without that, we are just mindless zombies or robots, who follow a strict and rigid commands.

So lets get down to the questions.
1. Yes, fear will, as mentioned, always be there. Fear isn't a bad thing. It keeps us on our toes and to be alert but don't be consumed by fear. There is a difference between feeling something and being consumed. The latter is an overwhelming emotions and are what drive our anxieties.

2. Depends on parenting and upbringing. For me, I would like for my daughter(s) to be able to have a normal social life. The social aspect is vital for their early development. I want her to explore the world on her own senses rather than just protecting her. I believe that the world ain't a scary places and far too many times, I have seen goodness in mankind. I will trust in my children to make semi good judgements.

3. Time changes. Newer generation always outgrow the predecessor because of education and intelligence. I believe that it will definitely impact parenting and our approach towards life. Back then, people had a rough method of parenting which isn't so common these days.

4. This is a tricky question. Testosterone is the primary muscle building hormones in our body. Do you mean for women to look like Chyna without being ridiculed? In today's world, women are no strangers to working out. In fact, men are more attracted to women who works out and get their body in shape. Ultimately, people will always talk. We can never truly stop people from talking, criticizing or even ridiculing someone for how they look.

5. If we do not take any sort of action today, nothing will change in generations to come. We can definitely curb the problem and yes, women are the weaker sex but it doesn't mean that women can't achieve greatness. Don't use that as a limitation factor. There are two aspect of feminism that I have seen quite a lot: the believe that women can do everything a man can and equality. So I wanna get this out of my chest, women can be greater than men. Don't set your limits based to what men can do. Go borderless. Also, don't aim for equality but instead for equity. A man and woman can never be equal. Even two men can't be equal.

This is a very thought-provoking thread!

My view on those questions is a bit mixed.

1.Do you think that in about 20-50 years from now,will girls still be afraid to travel at night on the lonely streets?Will they or shall they still be scared of "rapists" lurking in the shadows?

I think that I am not very optimistic about this one. Street violence is related to many factors and not to gender alone. I agree with writer bell hooks: to improve gender conditions, social conditions must be improved as well. As far as education is a privilege and the lower social classes are oppressed by the high classes, there will be social unrest and that will translate into social problems. Some outcomes of these might be taken as merely gender-related issues if the cause is not carefully analyzed. For example, a robbery (which was originally intended as a means to take money from someone else) may escalate to a rape and to murder.

Also, streets nowadays are not safe for anyone (female or male). There are female attackers, too. Maybe fewer, but they do exist. Without proper education and the improvement of social conditions, I can only see the problems turn more acute.

2.Do you think that parents who today can unquestionably send their sons to parties at night,will one day be able to do the same for their girls?Or will generations of girls to come,die to live a free day unquestionably?

Unfortunately, I see that even educated parents treat their daughters differently from the way they treat their sons. If there has been an improvement, at least in my country it has been hard to notice it. The change will happen as new generations reject patriarchal values. Many of today's parents will not change their views.

3.Do you think that a few years later from today we could have parents who teach their children differently from their own parents?Or will the same tradition of biased stereotypical teaching continue to take place?

I see that values change. Younger generations seem to be more conscious about some issues, and that happens at a different pace in different countries. The change will not arrive evenly to every nation, but I am confident that it will some day.

4,Do you think that 40-50 years from now ,girls could have muscles and biceps and not be judged for being strong(or manly as they call it)?

Yes. And boys will wear make up. But it will not happen at the same time in every place.

5.Do you think domestic violence could see a downfall soon?Or would the archetypal denotion of women as weak continue till the day humanity will cease to exist?

I believe that domestic violence is not only about battered women. There are women who hit their male partners and also there is domestic violence in lesbian couples; thus, the notion of women being weak (or strong) will have little effect on the issue of domestic violence. Abuse is linked to power, and the crave for power is not tied to only one gender. To get rid of domestic abuse, societies need to work out many issues first. One of them is teaching individuals (of all genders) that imposing one's view through violence is not appropriate. But how can societies do that if they keep armies, for example? And even in countries without armored forces, like mine, domestic violence is present. Without a total mental evolution, we will not see much change.

All the questions have the same answer yes we can. It is happening. if we can imagine it we can create it that is the human condition. when will it happen when we all take collective responsibly for the world men give back the position they took from women as equals.

Ross wrote: "We had a skype session as we do every week unashamed plug. We have people from all over the world and cultures some of the things women still have to deal with would shock even the worldly people o..."

Hi Ross,

I like how you mention that individuals need to be moved,not countries.I too believe that change is happening,more like we take ten steps forward and then pull back three steps.

But whatsoever, it is happening,even though slowly.

I hope we get the chance to experience the gender equality in this lifetime somehow.

Also I read a quote saying that everything that is today proven,started with an imagination.So if we can believe it,we can achieve it.

:)

Lydia wrote: "Ashna wrote: ""Change is the only thing that is constant."
And yet I feel there is a human psychology to pull back from change,because we become way too comfortable at one place,doing one thing,liv..."

Hi Lydia,

I completely agree with you on the fact that progress isn't linear and sees a great difference from country to country.

My parents too are conservative,even though they are very educated.

I guess in some countries like the Middle East and South Asia,these values of conservation are so hard-wired that it will take generations to oust and redefine them.

I obviously feel less fortunate to have been born in a conservative country.But it doesn't mean I'd let my successors rot in it as well.

I,as an individual can try my level best to redefine to the scope of my of my powers.After all,everyone must do their part to effectively move forward.

:)

Pam wrote: "Ok. So anytime people ask questions like this I always feel that either comes down to the generations. Ideas that become trends do not come out of nowhere.

Because of "Silent Spring" and other eve..."

Hi Pam,

50 years will put a dent in it,if not an end to it

This aptly describes what could a future look like.

Thanks for your honest answers about how things are.I think if there were more people who though about the consequences of their actions today,we could have a better tomorrow.

:)

Tadej wrote: "Those questions can be answered on the long way, ... but I will give you exact answer with an anti-question, which you will know the answer for.

Do you think that the wars would stop one day?

So..."

Hi Tadej,

Yeah wars!!Sure when people like Trump and Kim become friends rather than enemies.Lol.

I do understand what you were aiming at with your question.And it sure depends a whole lot on a multitude of greys rather than black and white.

:)

Benarji wrote: "Before I join in the discussion, I would like to stress out that our basic instincts, fears and insecurities cannot be written out of our human genome. We can mask, hide or ignore it but never wipe..."

Hi Benarji,

I like how you would allow your daughter the luxury to explore the world on her own feet.

However,it really saddens me to see how you bluntly said that women are the weaker sex.

I really don't think so.And I don't know why you feel this way.It is women who have the ability to carry around a 5 pound baby inside them.I don't think if they were weak,they could have done it.

It concerns me to think that when people have a preconceived image of women as weak,it is a root for domestic violence as well.

I hope you understand what I am trying to point out in my defence.

José wrote: "This is a very thought-provoking thread!

My view on those questions is a bit mixed.

1.Do you think that in about 20-50 years from now,will girls still be afraid to travel at night on the lonely..."

Hi José,

Thank you for your honest reviews.

I think I could not agree more on all your answers to my questions.It was wonderful to read.

:)

Ashna, I am so sorry that I forgot about your questions until now. So now, finally, here come my answers:

1.Do you think that in about 20-50 years from now,will girls still be afraid to travel at night on the lonely streets?Will they or shall they still be scared of "rapists" lurking in the shadows?

That is a difficult question to answer. I think it depends on where we live in the world. Because as sad as it is, we have to go a different length, and we have to use different methods.
But for my country, I think it is possible to say that in 20-50 years, girls will be able to go at night on lonely streets without being afraid.

2.Do you think that parents who today can unquestionably send their sons to parties at night,will one day be able to do the same for their girls?Or will generations of girls to come,die to live a free day unquestionably?

I really hope they can, I think they will be able to. The thing is, in order for girls to be able to go outside at night without having to worry, boys need to be taught by their parents and society in general, that they have to behave a certain way. But you know, change is on its way, and we won't back down.


3.Do you think that a few years later from today we could have parents who teach their children differently from their own parents?Or will the same tradition of biased stereotypical teaching continue to take place?

My parents raised me differently than their parents did, and I think it is totally possible that the same goes for my generation. With the internet so much information is literally a few clicks away, and we see how minorities get more attention but also more stage light, so to speak. Thus, I think, the way children are raised by my generation will, if not by all, be different at least for some of our children.
One way, as with everything feminist, is to talk about it. Sharing information and debunking myths and doing advocacy work not only for us, but for others as well, is key.


4,Do you think that 40-50 years from now ,girls could have muscles and biceps and not be judged for being strong(or manly as they call it)?
I definitely think they can! But I really hope, that this whole idea of female=feminine and male=masculine is being broken up, because it harms so many individuals. When we achieve this, it is also no problem anymore for a boy to be feminine. Gender equality!


5.Do you think domestic violence could see a downfall soon?Or would the archetypal denotion of women as weak continue till the day humanity will cease to exist?
Since I learn more and more about Native Americans and First Nations, my hopes are actually going up with this question.
No, patriarchy hasn't been the case everywhere since the dawn of humankind. The Haudenosaunee (or with their Western name Iroquois) were matriarchal before the arrival of the Europeans.
So I have hope that the notion of women as weak will cease to exist, as will other misconceptions about sex.

So, I am rather positive, we have the future in our hands, literally. Many hands make the work a rapid end.

Hi Meerder,

I love how you say the future lies in our hands.I surely believe it does,because as they say we are the future of tomorrow.

Seeing the amount of young people in this book club,I can strongly be positive about a change in the future for coming generations.

Young people like you and me are the leaders of tomorrow and we can surely change things ,when we take it into our own hands.

I wish all the people,the best of luck to change little by little the world around them.So that ultimately we reach our goal.

:)

Ashna wrote: "Hi Meerder,

I love how you say the future lies in our hands.I surely believe it does,because as they say we are the future of tomorrow.

Seeing the amount of young people in this book club,I can s..."

Ashna, we will make change. Little by little. 3 steps forward, 2 steps back.

@Ashna I know that I am blatantly outspoken, especially in a room filled with feminists but I stand by everything that I have said without a sign of remorse. I don't know who decided that it was a bad thing to be weak and people tend to be overly defensive when it comes to having a natural shortcoming.

It isn't wrong to be weak. We aren't perfect humans. We are deeply flawed. There are somethings that men do better than women. In a way, it is how we are built. I will never want for my daughter(s) to be perfect. I want her to understand her flaws and find a workaround to make her flaws as her strengths.

In comparison to football, Messi is a better player than Cristiano. Every sensible person knows that but that didn't stop Cristiano from winning 4 Balon D'ors. Being weaker or less equivalent doesn't mean that one is hopeless. It just means that one have to do more and put in more effort and hard work.

I know that in a room filled with feminism, somehow women probably wanna hear that they are the best; that men are the bad gender; that women are strong and independent. Being a man isn't a bad thing and we need each other to co-exist. Maybe instead of trying to change things, we should try to understand our differences.

1.Do you think that in about 20-50 years from now,will girls still be afraid to travel at night on the lonely streets?Will they or shall they still be scared of "rapists" lurking in the shadows?

50 years is a short time. I'm sure things will be better than now, but I don't think there will be a huge change, although I wish there is. But I think more girls / women will be confident to move about.

2.Do you think that parents who today can unquestionably send their sons to parties at night,will one day be able to do the same for their girls?Or will generations of girls to come,die to live a free day unquestionably?

As long as the thinking remains that a girl is her parents' responsibility and later her husband's girls will not be free. I have hopes from this generation though.

3.Do you think that a few years later from today we could have parents who teach their children differently from their own parents?Or will the same tradition of biased stereotypical teaching continue to take place?

My upbringing was much different from my parents and I can see my nephew's is much different still. And the change has been positive. I'm not sure whether this change is as evident in the lesser-educated / well educated but "proud to be traditional" families.


4,Do you think that 40-50 years from now ,girls could have muscles and biceps and not be judged for being strong(or manly as they call it)?

There are many athletes even now who have well-toned bodies if not the "ripped" bodies that some of the male actors and models sport. The ideal body-type changes with generations so maybe or maybe not. Personally, I find the muscle-heavy bodies artificial, be it male or female.

5.Do you think domestic violence could see a downfall soon?Or would the archetypal denotion of women as weak continue till the day humanity will cease to exist?

Again, it should reduce a lot. But it's difficult for it to go away in fifty years given that there are many countries and societies where it is still not against the law.

Thanks for these questions, I really liked going through the comments. To paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr: "I have a dream..."
My version:
"I have a dream, a dream to live in a society that doesn't discriminate on gender but accepts and celebrates the differences and provide every individual with every chance to realise their potential and freedom to just be".

“1.Do you think that in about 20-50 years from now,will girls still be afraid to travel at night on the lonely streets?Will they or shall they still be scared of "rapists" lurking in the shadows?”

Hard to say if girls will be afraid, only they would be actually able to answer that. What I can say is I don’t think that violence (and in this case violence against women) will ever go away. The darker side of humanity that consist of hatred, anger, envy, resentment will always play a part of human society in one form or another no matter the sex or race of an individual.


“2.Do you think that parents who today can unquestionably send their sons to parties at night,will one day be able to do the same for their girls?Or will generations of girls to come,die to live a free day unquestionably?”

To hard for me to answer this as my parents never knew of what parties I went to. Had I told them I was at parties they surely would of disallowed that. Same with my sisters although it didn’t stop them from going out on their own anyway.



3.Do you think that a few years later from today we could have parents who teach their children differently from their own parents?Or will the same tradition of biased stereotypical teaching continue to take place?

I think to some degree some parents have already have started to change. In other cases some parents didn’t mind the way they were raised so thus they will most likely continue to raise their own in that same manner.



4,Do you think that 40-50 years from now ,girls could have muscles and biceps and not be judged for being strong(or manly as they call it)?

Honestly? Probably not.



5.Do you think domestic violence could see a downfall soon?Or would the archetypal denotion of women as weak continue till the day humanity will cease to exist?

I think this is plausible especially for both sexes involved. The real answer to fixing or correcting this is to quit treating it lightly when it comes to criminal punishment. Society needs to quit treating it like a slap on the hand and start taking it seriously. But its very achievable.

Ashwin wrote: "1.Do you think that in about 20-50 years from now,will girls still be afraid to travel at night on the lonely streets?Will they or shall they still be scared of "rapists" lurking in the shadows?

5..."

Hi Ashwin,

Thanks for your honest answers.I agree with Emma that the responses are very well thought out.

James wrote: "“1.Do you think that in about 20-50 years from now,will girls still be afraid to travel at night on the lonely streets?Will they or shall they still be scared of "rapists" lurking in the shadows?”
..."

Hi James,

I too feel the same way on a number of questions.

Especially about 'stop treating domestic violence as a slap on the hand and taking it seriously'.

:)

Ashna wrote: ""Change is the only thing that is constant."
And yet I feel there is a human psychology to pull back from change,because we become way too comfortable at one place,doing one thing,living a particul..."
A la primera pregunta yo creo que esto dependerá del país y de las culturas.No creo que sea en todo el mundo dentro de 20 ó 50 años.Hay que educar a las personas en lo que es correcto y eso va a llevar mucho tiempo

There was a time where the rapes were not so uncommon and it was normal
Fortunately today men have much more respect for women

But i don't think that the instincts can be totally inhibited in the dark with a sexy woman some will try their chances
But definitely we tend to a mentality of equality between men and women

This said most of the rapes are made in the intimacy of a family and there are no escapes

The evolution can depend on the historical context too

santerro wrote: "But i don't think that the instincts can be totally inhibited in the dark with a sexy woman some will try their chances"

That's exactly the thing I wish would change and soon. To be attracted is natural. But, to assault is not, no matter how attracted or turned on one is.

Ashwin, right the last "no matter how attracted or turned on one is", makes, people do this.

You must understand that in mens natural character, it is to express their desires. And origins of men character has in their attributes also sexuality. Yet in common world as we live today, there is so much suppression of natural attributes of men (not all of course, because not all think with the same attributes), that in a small, yet still, very a lot of examples, people rape.

To end this request a tremendous work on individual, not on group of people. This is why we people regress than rather progress :(