A Game of Thrones
discussion
Why does everyone hate Sansa?
Wendy wrote: "whatevs, Matthew you're determined to think the best of her, and I dislike the child she was. Which is fine ... I don't expect to change your mind about her or myself. Some children know to be o..."
No, I'm just not inclined to believe the worst of her, or impose any expectations of what she should have been doing. But I respect that you're willing to agree to disagree, since I too know that I can't possibly change your opinion, nor do I intend to :)
Hannah wrote: "But my point is why does everyone see Sansa as weak at all? Other then whine what has she done that is considered weak? She does what she has to do in a bad situation and maybe her way of handling ..."I don't think she's weak. In the beginning of the series, she's a spoiled brat, entitled and totally naïve. But in the face of adversity she grows up fast. At her age and in her circumstances, surrounded by enemies, not knowing who is foe or friend, beaten and bullied by the 'boy king' I think it's normal how she behaves. I might not like her... but I get her. Of all Edards's children, Sansa resembles her father the most maybe... naïve and just not wise to the evil in the world.
This may be off topic, but does anyone think that any of the Stark children will reunite in the future volumes? I wonder if they'll even be recognizable to each other with how much they've all changed.
Nathan wrote: "This may be off topic, but does anyone think that any of the Stark children will reunite in the future volumes? I wonder if they'll even be recognizable to each other with how much they've all chan..."I think it would be really cool! I am hoping Sansa will run into Bran, Bran will run into Jon, Jon will run into Arya, Arya will run into Jon, Sansa into Arya, and Arya into Rickon. These are the most likely meet ups to me.
Hannah wrote: "Nathan wrote: "This may be off topic, but does anyone think that any of the Stark children will reunite in the future volumes? I wonder if they'll even be recognizable to each other with how much t..."Haha I'm pretty sure everyone wants reunions. I know in a normal series they all would come back together and live happily ever after, but with this series you never know what to expect. We can only hope!
Matthew - not sure what mark my spoilers means, as no one else has either?? This could be something I don't know how to do. If anyone is trying to avoid spoilers don't read this.Yes, they are all skinchangers, but Sansa no longer has her link (her wolf). My point being I think she would be much stronger if she still had her wolf. Maybe that is too literal, but look at Bran, he and his wolf are practically one. Ghost always knows when Jon is in trouble. Summer and Rickon were also mentally linked. I think they are a factor in the story and the Stark's personality. It runs deeper than a simple pet, otherwise they would not be in the story.
Right now Sansa is depending on others for her rescue and Littlefinger has ended up using her for his own means - marrying her off to a wealthy family for the money. Which has not been on the series on HBO yet, but is in the last book. I think Sansa needs to prove herself, I have to say she is my least favorite Stark. No offense to those of you who love her, she could still redeem herself.
I would love them all to run into each other again, but the way things are going I don't think we are going to have any happy endings in this.
I disliked Sansa before all the tragic things happened, because she was crushing on Joffery and so childish. Now she is a strong young woman and I just love her so much. She is my favorite character apart from Arya, and Khaleesi. If George kills her off... I can not even describe the pain and anger, even worse than getting killed by a white walker.
Angela wrote: "Matthew - not sure what mark my spoilers means, as no one else has either?? This could be something I don't know how to do. If anyone is trying to avoid spoilers don't read this."If you put tags around your text < S P O I L E R> and < / S P O I L E R> (without the spaces) then that text is hidden from the reader unless they click on it. It looks like (view spoiler). It's considered courteous to hide spoilers about a book or later books in a thread about that book.
Goodreads has several other features like that. If you reply to this post, there's a link at the top right of the text box that reads "(some html is ok)" that'll give you more info.
Angela wrote: "Matthew - not sure what mark my spoilers means, as no one else has either?? This could be something I don't know how to do. If anyone is trying to avoid spoilers don't read this.Yes, they are a..."
I was talking about the last line of you previous post regarding (view spoiler). To make a spoiler tag, begin with < spoiler > and end with < /spoiler >, but without the spaces. Although I think I might be getting the spoiler policy for this thread mixed up with the other Sansa defense thread…
Regarding the wolves, yes of course they are more than pets, but I don't think Sansa's personality would be different if lady didn't die. Would things turn out differently? Almost certainly, as the direwolves' fierce loyalty to the Stark Children has come in handy on multiple occasions (the assassin sent after Bran, Grey Wind biting off the Greatjon's fingers).
While in Littlefinger is using Sansa is indisputable, I don't get the impression money's the reason— Baelish has enough of that. No, what Littlefinger desires is POWER, and the money=power system f today does not apply to land-wealth feudal systems. If the plan to (view spoiler) goes through, then Littlefinger will control 3 of the nine regions of Westeros, 2 of the original pre-Aegon Seven kingdoms: (view spoiler)
Thanks Gary! New to this so appreciate all tips!
Matthew - I think you are right, it is power. Sansa has been used by him and pretty much everyone else since she became a prisoner. Yes, I do think things would be different if she still had her wolf. I think the wolves are a little more connected to their people than you do. Don't forget Bran walks and runs and hunts through his wolf. I would like to see Sansa stand up for herself more. I guess I feel like she should be more strong willed, however, if she were she might not be alive still. But the way she is going she could outlive everyone because she takes no chances! I think she has gotten a long way due to her youth and looks. I guess she can't be expected to be as tough as Arya. The Hound was charmed by her looks and her mild manners, as was Tyrion.
Sansa is often treated like she's stupid but seriously, how could someone stupid survive in king's landing? And i think it's unfaor that she is weaker than Arya because she can't fight. I actually think she'd be a better queen than Arya cause Arya usually jumps in to action without thinking. Arya would be a better soldier but Sansa would be a better queen. I like both characters but i think Sansa's misjudged because of the things she did to survive.
And here we go again…
Altus wrote: "Sansa is often treated like she's stupid but seriously, how could someone stupid survive in king's landing? "Her survival is not a good indicator of her intellect.(view spoiler)
That being said, she's not stupid. She's naive. She's a little girl who lives in a fairy tale world.
Ben wrote: "SPOILERS AHEAD:Goodreads has spoiler tags that you can use, but instead of standard HTML brackets you use <> with "spoiler" and "/spoiler" in them (without the quotes, of course.)
...And nice summary of her major negative actions. In addition, I'd include her treatment of Arya and general spoiled little rich girl behavior.
It's not at all clear that she's learned her lesson in the books, though the TV show appears to be making her something of a femme fatale. The character that GRRM portrays arguably learns something along the way, but she seems just as much the damsel in distress after she (view spoiler) King's Landing.
Gary wrote: "Ben wrote: "SPOILERS AHEAD:Goodreads has spoiler tags that you can use, but instead of standard HTML brackets you use with "spoiler" and "/spoiler" in them (without the quotes, of course.)
Thank you. I could have sworn I tried that the first time (I edited that post like 4 times) but I think I used [ instead of <.
Ben wrote: "I could have sworn I tried that the first time (I edited that post like 4 times) but I think I used [ instead of <."I'm on GR so much that I have to consciously think before typing standard HTML brackets now. ::Sigh::
Matthew wrote: "And here we go again…"LOL I just rolled my eyes and will not even touch this again :-D
Angela wrote: "I think the wolves play a very important part of the Stark's characters. They are joined to their wolves supernaturally and I think when Sansa's wolf was killed, it killed a part of her that would..."I don't hate Sansa I agree about the wolves. We will never know what connection Sansa would have had with hers. I think she was trying to survive in a world she was not brought up in.
I think people don't like her because they don't look at things from her perspective. In the beginning of the series I agree that she was a whiny immature little girl (to be honest she infuriated me, I hated her and loved Arya, but now the tables have turned completely), but like you said, she was 12! I think people just don't pay attention to her character development and don't take into consideration how helpless she was at King's Landing. To be honest though, I think she was extremely brave and smart there. She could hardly have run Joffrey through with a sword, mounted a horse and galloped away to The Wall, so she managed to keep herself alive through lying and manipulation by pretending to be dumber than she was. Keeping silent to Joffrey's abuse wasn't weakness, it was instinct. If she'd slapped Joffrey or told his mother (who obviously KNEW) she probably would have gotten her hand cut off or something. She always knew exactly what to say and I think she played Cersei by using what she thought of her, as a stupid naive little girl, and her arrogance to have the upper hand so Cersei wouldn't suspect her of being a threat. If she was as stupid, whiny and naive as she had at the start of the series she wouldn't have survived A Clash of Kings regardless of how much the Lannisters needed her to get The North. Joffrey's behaviour is proof of that.
I did not like Sansa at the beginning. Partly because she seemed like a snotty older sister to Arya. By book 2 and 3 I am more and more sympathetic to Sansa because she is dealing with a different kind of problem that most of the other Starks have to deal with.
I would not wish being engaged or married to Joffrey to my worst enemy. Anyone who can survive that and come out alive and sane is ok in my book.
I am looking forward to see what happens next in the books. I have finished book 3. Will finish up some other books then proceed to book 4 and 5 and hopefully George R.R. Martin will finish the series before I die (or before he dies).
I am looking forward to see what happens next in the books. I have finished book 3. Will finish up some other books then proceed to book 4 and 5 and hopefully George R.R. Martin will finish the series before I die (or before he dies).
That's right raven
I didn't like her to start, but now she is one of my favorites. She gets more interesting the further you go in the series...
Cemre wrote: "I think people ignore her upbringing while judging her. She was raised to believe in fairy tales. People forget that Arya is not the norm but exception. I also have to add that marriage works diffe..."Agreed. One thing I really like about the series is Sophie Turner's portrayal of Sansa - you can tell the character is changing based on what she's experienced. And has already been said, since Sansa has always been acted upon, but never an actor, it makes it tough to "like" her. I'll be interested to see where her story arc goes.
Ben wrote: "SPOILERS AHEAD:Not standing up for her sister resulted in the death of Micca (the butcher boy who was friends with Arya), the banishment of Nymeria (Arya's wolf), and the death of her own wolf (L..."
Why are Tyrion's feelings important? I don't care about the feelings of a man who forced a young girl to marry him. Sansa gets all of my sympathy. I don't have any left to spare for him.
That may be true but Tyrion is a grown man who knows right from wrong. He should have tried to do something.
Against Tywin? Barring (view spoiler), there's nothing Tyrion could do that wouldn't make things worse for both him and Sansa.
Yvette wrote: "Hannah wrote: "But my point is why does everyone see Sansa as weak at all? Other then whine what has she done that is considered weak? She does what she has to do in a bad situation and maybe her w..."I don't see Sansa as weak. I do agree with her surviving as best she could given her circumstances and education. She was taught to be obedient, that her worth was her marriageability, that she had no power over her own life. All three difficult to get over - unlike Arya, she never had a chance to escape. When she does, she takes it no matter the dangers.
R.B. wrote: "Yvette wrote: "Hannah wrote: "But my point is why does everyone see Sansa as weak at all? Other then whine what has she done that is considered weak? She does what she has to do in a bad situation ..."The Hound offered her a chance to escape when he deserted during the Battle of the Blackwater. Of course, I don't exactly blame her for declining in that particular instance, but it's not like she never had a chance.
Sansa saw the Hound as Joffrey's lackey - how could she trust him?
Yeah. Frankly I would have accepted the hound's offer.
Oh, she's a good CHARACTER for the story, but damn she's a horrible person. While her family, home, friends, etc. are going up in flames and dropping like flies around her, she's still spending 90% of her time daydreaming about her happy ever after with prince charming. I think I've lost count of people Sansa has gotten killed, and she don't give a F***
Hannah wrote: "Yeah. Frankly I would have accepted the hound's offer."Me too!
Wendy wrote: "whatevs, Matthew you're determined to think the best of her, and I dislike the child she was. Which is fine ... I don't expect to change your mind about her or myself. Some children know to be ob..."
the truth has been spoken!
Sansa has had one heck of a growing curve. She started by believing the world was a certain way. That got beaten and raped out of her. She's grown stronger and learned and I think people are beginning to love her now.
Barack wrote: "Why do some people dislike Sansa Stark?In the first book, Sansa seemed to be very loyal to the 'evil' Lannisters. Sansa wanted desperately to be accepted by Queen Cersei and Prince Joffrey. Somet..."
This exactly. That's what I love about George RR Martin's writing; you start out thinking one way but his characters get so much depth and opportunities of redemption or downfall; that you end up thinking very differently about them.
I hated Sansa early on for the reasons you gave. They were my least favorite chapters in the first book or two. She showed more loyalty to the Lannisters than her own family. Hell, she turned her father in. I don't care how much she hoped things would turn out well, she betrayed her father and is responsible for his death.
Since then she's grown quite a bit and I actually find myself rooting for her.
Ben wrote: "Barack wrote: "Why do some people dislike Sansa Stark?In the first book, Sansa seemed to be very loyal to the 'evil' Lannisters. Sansa wanted desperately to be accepted by Queen Cersei and Prince..."
Sansa is not responsible for her fathers death. No one intended to cut of Ned's head except for Joffrey who was a lil bitch. So you're saying Sansa was controlling the whole situation and cut off her own fathers head? No.
Emma wrote: "Ben wrote: "Barack wrote: "Why do some people dislike Sansa Stark?In the first book, Sansa seemed to be very loyal to the 'evil' Lannisters. Sansa wanted desperately to be accepted by Queen Cerse..."
No, he's saying her betrayal of her own father makes her responsible for what ultimately happened. And he's right. Had she not told the Lannisters about his plans, they would not have been able to make a preemptive move on him and he would not have been in a position to have Joffrey murder him. Had he been sent to the Wall instead, she would have been responsible for that. Her choosing to put her faith in the Lannisters put Ned in harm's way. She didn't need to be in control of the whole situation to affect this outcome.
Spoilers Galore From books 1-4: Okay, my primary issue with Sansa is not so much that she is weak, or that she is inherently at fault for her own stupidity (she is 11-13). My main problem with her is that throughout it all, she remains the most superficial and absurdly trusting character in all of Westeros and the lands beyond.
(for the record i am exclusively talking about book Sansa, show Sansa actually does evolve drastically away from book sansa from the moment littlefinger kills Lysa Arryn, i actually really like her.)
When the books start she is a girl of 11 who knows nothing but stories of knights and dragons, so when she meets Joffery she immediately falls head over heels for the idea of her Prince Charming. But that really does not excuse how she at the time and long after blamed Arya for defending Micah from Joffery's cruelty on the simple basis of "he was only a bakers boy." This displays Sansa's consistent sense of entitlement and feeling that somehow her birth makes her better than everyone else. And don't try to tell me this changes with her experiences. In AFfC, "Alayne" recalls Jon Snow with the oh so pleasant thought "she had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still..."
Heres a few more examples so no one can say I'm cherrypicking:
After the events in Kings landing in AGoT, where Sansa had been explicitly told "they're killing everyone!" she does not, in the entire conversation she has with the queen, ask about Arya and does not even realize it until hours later all because she was so focused on being able to still marry Joffery.
When Tyrion saves her from a beating in ACoK, she spends almost their entire conversation focusing on how ugly he is
The absurd amount of time she spends in books 1-3 thinking about how all these different men are not "true knights." After all she's seen she still believes in that???? really????
Sansa is over the top smitten with Loras Tryell in ASoS just because he gave her a rose one time and he looks nice but Tyrion actually WAS nice to her and just like with the somewhat unattractive and crippled Tyrell brother she was going to marry she can't stand the thought of it on a basely superficial level. Even when he saves her from humiliation by Joffery on their wedding night (being stripped naked) she refuses to kneel down so he can take off her cloak because its HUMILIATING meaning Tyrion has to climb up onto a fools back to reach her.
I also take issue with the fact that, while i don't blame her for not wanting to sleep with Tyrion, since we are reading from her perspective we know that her reasons for not wanting to sleep with Tyrion are literally all about the fact that he is ugly, and i personally believe that his ugliness is the reason she distrusts him the entire story.
Also, as much as people like to say that Sansa has gained some sort of understanding from her time in Kings Landing, i don't really think so. She trusts the Tyrells, she trusts Ser Dontos, she trusts LITTLEFINGER even when she knows he's lying to her under the presumption that it's "out of kindness" and therefore "not really a lie." she seems incapable of realizing that when people are nice to you they usually have an ulterior motive especially in Kings Landing. Really the only person she doesn't trust is Tyrion. Personally i think that most of the reason people find her so interesting now is that she is standing next to the master player Petyr Baelish and gives us an idea of what he's planning and who he is. She trusted him after she literally heard Lysa Arryn confess to doing "everything she did" (i'm trying to reign in my spoilers) for Littlefinger.
I get where people are coming from when they say she's a child, but most of the people whose perspectives we see start with or quickly develop an understanding of people and the way the world works. Jon stops being an angry shit very early in book one and faces deep moral dilemmas with the wildlings that make him a better leader. Tyrion was made a deep cynic by the circumstances surrounding his first marriage and being born a monster to be hated that lets him do a lot of good in ACoK (for all the good it did him...). Arya isn't exactly einstein at making decisions during the first few books but we root for her because we can understand and agree with, if not endorse, her motives in a way that we just can't with Sansa. Bran is naive but he's also like 7 and he's generally a nice person even after getting crippled.
Sansa is by and far not the most evil character in the books (Ramsey) but unlike Theon and Jaime and Tyrion and Daenereys she has annoyingly little character arc. I'm not saying it won't happen, but it definitely hasn't yet. That coupled with the fact she can't fight, can't really manipulate anyone other than Robert Arryn, and isn't particularly witty on account of being super modest about literally everything, makes her a very boring character to follow on her own.
That is not to say she cannot become a more independent and exciting character, i simply feel that she has not become such yet and will remain a fairly powerless character until she breaks free from Littlefinger's control, and she really needs to stop looking down on people of lower birth, pretending to be a bastard has helped but she still needs to lose the notions about gallantry and knights and shining armor. It grows old, fast.
I must say this is a very good exploration of Sansa, in both depth and breath. I really want to root for the girl - considering all she's been through - but she does have to develop more strength, understanding and true humility (and humour as you say) before I can empathize with her fully. I hope both the books and the series explore all the possibilities of her potential.
R B in the series she has grown so much I really like what they have done to her
The books haven't gotten that far yet
I'm looking forward to her continued growth as a character. Perhaps some compassion for others, learned through her own trials?
I don't hate Sansa, she's not exactly my favorite, Dany is, but that doesn't mean I hate her. I really hate Joffrey. He's a spoiled brat.
R.B. wrote: "I must say this is a very good exploration of Sansa, in both depth and breath. I really want to root for the girl - considering all she's been through - but she does have to develop more strength, ..."thanks :)
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
George R.R. Martin (other topics)
Books mentioned in this topic
A Game of Thrones (other topics)Authors mentioned in this topic
George R.R. Martin (other topics)George R.R. Martin (other topics)
Mark your spoilers in that last line.
Although all the Stark children are skin changers, I think you're reading into it a little too literally, although a symbolic interpretation of the characters and their wolves works, especially for the sisters: Arya wanders the Riverlands, and Sansa is at Cersei's mercy.