SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Corinne wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

I didn't even think about that... my brain was overwhelmed by that point. I really thought things would go a different way. This is ASOIAF and thing never go as planned.

Corinne wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

Very cool, I didn't catch that at all. I'll have to rewatch that scene.

I was a little puzzled by (view spoiler)[how trapped Jon was at the end. Granted, it's a dragon...but I wondered why he didn't look for a different way around or something. Story-wise, it felt like he should play some significant role in a confrontation with the snow king. If he was helping Arya get the coup de grâce, that makes more sense now. (hide spoiler)]

Corinne wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

as always... humpf

It was definitely one of the most intense pieces of TV I can remember watching. The amount of tension built at the beginning, before anything even happened was knuckle chewing.

What does "deux ex machina" ending mean? I don't know that phrase.

Rosie wrote: "What does "deux ex machina" ending mean? I don't know that phrase."

Deus ex machina = the god from the machine.

It comes from Greek theatre where a crane was used to bring actors playing gods onto the stage. Nowadays it’s used to mean a sudden, too-easy conclusion to a difficult situation. Like (view spoiler)[ Arya popping up apparently out of nowhere to stab the Night King, which then conveniently destroys the entire undead army (hide spoiler)]

Ruth wrote: "Rosie wrote: "What does "deux ex machina" ending mean? I don't know that phrase."

Deus ex machina = the god from the machine.

It comes from Greek theatre where a crane was used to bring actors pl..."

Thanks for the reference, a new bit of info for me.

(view spoiler)[I thought, regarding Arya though, that pretty much her entire character arc from season 1 has been leading up to this, her ability to move about without being noticed has been pretty well established and demonstrated on several occasions.

Along with the theory of the Night King's death causing the end of all the dead and White Walkers he had created. That was first mentioned last season and again in the episode before this, when the whole plan Jon lays out is to get to the NK as the only viable way to defeat the coming army. Once the battle started, there wasn't really another way for it to end. If killing the NK wasn't the way to stop all the dead at once, there's really no way anyone would survive. (hide spoiler)]

Rosie wrote: "Thanks for the reference, a new bit of info for me.
"

I agree with your comments in the spoiler. For me, Deus Ex Machina means the ending was unfair because the available information doesn't support the resolution—it's literally a magical solution from the heavens.

(view spoiler)[As soon as Melisandre told Arya very mysteriously that she was destined to kill many blue eyes, and Arya very mysteriously slunk away, it looked like she was headed for a potential checkmate. It's not like I was totally sure or anything, but it felt like a fulfillment rather than a surprise. (hide spoiler)]

Are your goblets filled with wine, ready for tonight's episode? I have no idea what's coming (didn't watch the preview), but I do know I baked a huge batch of brownies with a mountain of mocha creme on top, drizzled with melted chocolate! We're going to be eating that for lunch tomorrow as we watch! It's not Hot Pie, but it's a baked good, so I think it should count.

Reminding everyone to please use spoiler tags once you start discussing. Thank you!

I watched it tonight with nothing more sophisticated than a bottle of Coke Zero (I have diabetes type 2, so no brownies with mocha creme and melted chocolate for me). (No spoilers) The episode gave me a lot to think about.

That was really grim. (view spoiler)[ In some ways the one woman who was killed was as shocking as the multitudes. Maybe because there was so much focus on it, and not expected. (hide spoiler)]

New projected ending: Sort of tongue in cheek but possible as anything. (view spoiler)[ Everyone is dead. Brienne finally accepts Tormund Giantsbane and they go off to the north with Ghost. (hide spoiler)]

Shades of the past: (view spoiler)[ Jon has shown, and even more so now, that he is just as foolishly principled as his adoptive father. Dany will not forgive him; and she may end up mad, literally. (hide spoiler)]

The writers did it again: (view spoiler)[ The ambush happened just as shockingly and unexpectedly as it would happen. When they realize what's happening, it's too late. (hide spoiler)]

This episode was as intense as the last but in different ways.

Corinne wrote: "I'm disappointed with some fade to black scenes
.."

I agree. I found pretty much the whole episode disappointing. My hope is that Martin was as annoyed by it as I was, and that he puts that energy into writing the ending his characters deserve.

and the (view spoiler)[Starbucks (or other brand) coffee cup in the feast scene? Bad film editing (hide spoiler)]

I was so annoyed for most of this episode! I kept pausing so I could rant.

(view spoiler)[ Of course Sansa had to be raped, beaten, manipulated and treated like all kinds of crap to become a strong woman. Because that's the only way a woman can grow. Ugh!

Who the fuck gave permission for that disgusting incestuous child-murdering Lannister to make my beautiful Brienne beg and cry! I've never wanted them to have anything besides a professional relationship, and I *hate* this!

Missandei will be missed :( She is such an intelligent woman, beautiful in all ways.

I'm happy to finally see Varys back in action, I've missed him. (hide spoiler)]

I actually liked that episode, not because of the deaths but because it sprang quite a few surprises on us. Things are developping and characters are pursuing their missions/callings/destinies. If one watches GoT hoping to see nice endings, think again: this series is written in blood!

This is getting silly. You have dragons. Scout ahead. How can you get caught by surprise? Tyrion, Varys and Greyworm.

Jerry-Book wrote: "This is getting silly. You have dragons. Scout ahead. How can you get caught by surprise? Tyrion, Varys and Greyworm."

Ambushes and surprise are present along the whole history of warfare. We have reconnaissance aircraft these days and ambushes still happen. Besides, making dragons as unbeatable opponents would be bad, lazy story writing.

They were lazy. Tired. (view spoiler)[I mean they just beat the dead. Arya saved them all, but they sure put up a fight. So many dead. (hide spoiler)] Where are all these people coming from. How many battles have there been....

Please use spoiler tags!

It's more a matter of treachery than surprise. (view spoiler)[ Who is playing both sides? Who has given the worst advice and is still in his position? Tyrion. He counseled to trust Cersei; he knows better. He counseled to make an offer of 'surrender' knowing she would not, and that no one should go into the 'lion's den. (hide spoiler)]

The scene of the moral argument: (view spoiler)[ Between Varys and Tyrion. Tyrion would appear to be true, but what better way to be deceitful, than to speak against treason.

He knows Dany is ambitious, that Jon is foolish. And he knows Cersei. When Jaime said she deceived him, Tyrion said she didn't; that Jaime knew what she was all along. He is the smartest one there. I don't believe he's just made mistakes! We'll see. :) (hide spoiler)]

Tyrion(view spoiler)[may well be a traitor. He sure gives bad advice. Of course, Varys is ready to throw Dany under the bus. Dany seems to be running out of troops: the horse soldiers, the Unsullied and now the dragons. The Wildings have gone home. All she seems to have are the men of the North, maybe some from the Vale, and one dragon. Kit Harrington in an interview said the end is disappointing. Episode 4 only got a 57% on Rotten Tomatoes. (hide spoiler)]

@Jerry-Book shutupshutupshutup don't wanna hear it even in spoiler tags

but we want to discuss what we watched on TV last Sunday. To me, that's the main purpose of this thread. I won't discuss the Reddit leaked information or other spoiler information, but standard articles in the press are fair game, if hidden in spoiler tags, to me. Interviews with the cast are careful to not give out any "real spoilers" until an episode has aired.

AWWW! Thank you Corinne. I needed that. :) Sorry Jerry, your comment hit me in a tender spot.

I'm so worried that the ending is going to disappoint... but I have so much hope that it will be a satisfying conclusion to a story that has occupied significant mental real estate for many years now. I'm so excited for episode 5, (view spoiler)[IT IS GOING TO RAIN FIRE!!! (hide spoiler)]

Jerry-Book wrote: "Tyrion[spoilers removed]"

I'm already disappointed. (view spoiler)[ Dragon. Singular. If they kill them all, they've killed the whole thing for me. (hide spoiler)] I've been saying I'm not going to watch anymore. So now I've decided it's a many-sided multi-tiered chess game set out like the beginning of each episode where pieces rise and fall. I'll probably watch the next one.

Frankly, I don't understand why someone would watch all those seasons of GoT, see the running bloodbath and twisted drama, only to want to quit before they see the last episode(s), just because they 'don't like how it may end'. Please give the show a chance! The show's makers still could have a resounding surprise for us that could turn the story one end or another. Don't presume what the end will be. Take it as it comes!

I even watched the ending of Lost which was a real let down.

CBRetriever wrote: "I even watched the ending of Lost which was a real let down."

If the ending of GoT is anything like the ending of Lost I'm never going to watch TV again.

I'm not watching very many shows lately anyway. Quality and subject matter seems poor. It's like screenwriters have run out of ideas with all the reboots/remakes (Hawaii 5-0, McGyver and Magnum, P.I. spring to mind here).

Just think of those TV series as if they are like TV news: news are mostly about bad things but we keep watching them, to see what happens next.

I will *so* be watching E5. Can't wait :) On the biggest screen possible, to paraphrase someone.

I was going to make hand pies for tomorrow's GoT lunch, and spell Hot Pie on the crust, but I'm too lazy. I'm not too lazy to remind about spoiler tags, though! Please use them! Thanks and enjoy! We're almost done!

Corinne wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

That sums up my views as well.

Well, Death was certainly at the rendez-vous in tonight's episode, as befits a GoT episode. However, despite all the developments of tonight, I still am unable to decide with any certainty who will still survive and thrive at the end of the show. That is what I call 'masterful drama'.

(view spoiler)[I need time to mull this over, but at the very least, the Clegane fight ended perfectly in my eyes. The Hound pushing them both to a fiery death was just about as fitting as possible (hide spoiler)]

Loved it.

yes

(view spoiler)[
The Hound & the Mountain = perfect ending
Other than thinking Jaime would do a murder/suicide with Cersei, their ending was fitting
I thought all the Dothraki were wiped out?
is Grey Worm still alive?
and the Mad Queen comes to life (hide spoiler)]

I was waiting to see (view spoiler)[ dragon fire melt the Iron Throne, but unfortunately it seems to have survived. Surely they'd have shown it. (hide spoiler)]

It's amazing that everyone thinks (view spoiler)[ that the most vile human being would get such a humane death. Cersei was more manipulative, horrid and vile; as I've seen. She deserved the slowest, most painful death of anyone. To die with her lover in a tender embrace was BS!! IDC, IDC!! That bitch is alive and more vengeful than ever. Arya will cut that throat in the end.

Also, Tyrion is a mastermind. He plays all sides and sits back to watch it all play out. Because of his treachery though, he may get his throat cut too. Hhhmmmm

A stark will sit on that throne; Jon won't do it. Arya won't do it. Sansa just might..... she sits prettily in Winterfell being "weak"... I swear GRRM better be writing some better crap in the books, though.

Arya deserves to complete her list. She is owed that much. (hide spoiler)]

BTW, I hated this episode.

It was good. I think we all know this can only end one of 2 ways......

That was the most gratifying episode. Ever. Any series.

Bows down to Benioff and Weiss! :P

Corinne, (view spoiler)[I totally agree about Jaime and Tyrion. That was a great moment, but I think it sealed his fate and the Mad Queen is going to execute him. (hide spoiler)]

I will say one thing about this season is that it makes me want the books to be completed even more. In the books, we know mostly what the characters are thinking, so when (view spoiler)[Cersei is looking at the destruction of her rule, we would get to experience what she's feeling. Likewise when Dany is making the decision to continue attacking, we would be able to understand why a little better and probably get to see her increasingly irrational thought process. (hide spoiler)]. Don't get me wrong, the actors did a great job expressing emotions visibly, but knowing what the characters are thinking in such a character driven story would really enhance the experience.

I'm with those who say the biggest death this season was the writing.

(view spoiler)[Cercei had some of the show's best lines. This season, she gets a total of, what?, 100 words? In fact, it's like they decided that this whole season would be better off by depriving women of substantial speaking parts altogether. Showrunners: "I know it's your big moment, Arya, but shut up and let the Hound speak."

The powerful-woman-goes-crazy trope is just lazy. And the only way they made it even remotely adhere to Dany's development was by killing off the show's only woman of color.

Dany's most striking character trait has been her solidarity with the vulnerable. She's the breaker of chains, ffs. And here we're supposed to believe she has a chance to fly straight to the tower to take out the woman who killed her best friend but skips it to torch a bunch of innocents instead?

This season also lacks basic credibility in its battle scenes. Some ships defeat a couple of dragons, but one dragon on its own can singlehandedly destroy a whole city? Huh? Are the scorpions powerful dragon killers or not?

From now on, can we wait to adapt high fantasy series until all the parts have been finished?

(hide spoiler)]

Yeah, (view spoiler)[ I've always hated Cersei, but this season she was wasted. And I'm not talking about all that wine she's been sipping. (hide spoiler)]

Travis, you do make some good points about (view spoiler)[the battles. I've been able to roll my eyes and ignore it, but it strains my suspension of disbelief. I mean besides fire somehow having the ability to shatter stone now and the things you mentioned, the defense in the city is just terrible. I get that they were routed by dragons, but they were just loosely standing in the street and not in any defensive position.

That being said, while having those skeptical thoughts, I still thoroughly enjoyed the episode and those were just minor annoyances for me. (hide spoiler)]

Tweeted thanks to Benihoff and Weiss! :P

Here is what would be my dream final episode of G0T: (view spoiler)[Jon kills Danny for having massacred the population of the city, then returns to his cherished North, not wanting to take the throne. Instead, after killing Danny, he takes the title for only a minute, then abdicates the throne in favor of Gendry, who has been publicly recognized by Danny herself of being the last descendant of King Robert Baratheon. Gendry would then ask again Arya to become his queen and help him bring true democracy to Westeros, with Arya accepting in view of his goal and with the support of the surviving citizens of the city, which Arya tried to help. (hide spoiler)]. Most readers will say that I am dreaming and that will not happen, but that would be my preferate ending to GoT. What do you think?

Travis wrote: "I'm with those who say the biggest death this season was the writing.

Cercei had some of the show's best lines. This season, she gets a total of, what?, 100 words? In fact, it's like they decided..."

Travis, there is actually a simple explanation for one of your questions. (view spoiler)[The Scorpion is actually a very unwieldy weapon, slow to turn around and point and with a limited maximum elevation angle. It is great against dragons coming low from the frontal arc of a ship, but will prove lousy against a dragon coming from the rear and diving at a steep angle. WW1 warships had the same kind of problems with their first anti-aircraft guns (they did not elevate high enough and were slow to point). Also, the sails and masts amidship will block your line of fire if you try to shoot your Scorpion towards the stern. Danny simply learned her tactical lesson from her first encounter. (hide spoiler)]

Michel wrote: "Here is what would be my dream final episode of G0T: [spoilers removed]. Most readers will say that I am dreaming and that will not happen, but that would be my preferate ending to GoT. What do you..."

(view spoiler)[ I think it is likely Arya that will kill Dany after her experience in Kings Landing. I do think it's good that King's Landing was destroyed in the sense that as long as it existed there would be people willing to go to war for it. Now they can just devolve back into seven kingdoms which is what i would like to see. And I do think the B!$ch got off too easy.

re the dragon, I do think she learned from the mistakes - if you can come from behind they are just too slow to turn. They should have anticipated that maybe by having the ships point in multiple directions? But whatever - I enjoyed that part. (hide spoiler)]

Rachel wrote: "(view spoiler)[ Now they can just devolve back into seven kingdoms which is what i would like to see. And I do think the B!$ch got off too easy. (hide spoiler)]"

100% agreed! I'd like to see (view spoiler)[ seven complete unknowns rule their kingdoms, although I wouldn't hate it if Jon or Sansa ruled the North. It's not a huge deal for me, but I'd rather see Jon die than take any throne. (hide spoiler)]