Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our September read.

Published in 1965, At Bertram’s Hotel sees Miss Marple in a nostalgic mood. She is on a trip to London, at a hotel she stayed in as a girl and where nothing, seemingly, has changed. However, beyond the traditional façade, all is not as it seems….

You are welcome to post spoilers in this thread.

Well, here is the question I have been having since I re-read this recently. Canon Pennyfather had a conference to attend on the 19th, meaning he needed to leave on the 18th and would be gone that evening and the next day. Since he mixed up the date and didn't leave until the evening of the 19th, he came back to find his doppelganger in his room. Wouldn't the criminals have expected him to be gone on the evening of the 18th through the 19th, and not the 19th through the 20th? Why were they there on a night he might have returned from the conference? The point was to have the crime occur when they would be sure he would have an alibi. Any thought?

Mark, their robbery wasn't taking place until the 19th , they may have thought he was coming back to the hotel that night but later than he actually did. His alibi would have been that he was on a flight or possibly making his way back from the airport, where he would have been seen by many.
However I do believe that you have hit on the flaw in the plot. I couldn't understand why they had taken him and dumped him in the place where the train was robbed. Seemed to me a they would have been better to have left him in a completely different district, possibly close to the station or airport. If he were found there he would definitely have had an alibi, from a hospital maybe, but with absolutely no connection to the robbery.

I thought he may have been expected back on the 19th. There was someone who saw him before he left, thinking he'd already returned.

I found the plot of this book rather confusing overall (hoping to get it clearer in my head by watching the Joan Hickson TV version!).

Also I must admit I'm always a bit disappointed when it turns out there is a conspiracy rather than just one or two baddies to identify.

However it's certainly full of intriguing twists! I also loved the atmosphere of the hotel where everything seems lovely and yet you gradually become aware there is something nasty going on underneath - something Christie also does brilliantly with the holiday resort in our previous read, A Caribbean Mystery

Mark, that is an interesting point. I thought he was away for a day or two and that the criminals had been using the rooms - there was a 'judge' seen near the scene of a crime, who had been staying at Bertram's. Personally, even if they used the rooms, I couldn't see why they would draw attention to themselves by impersonating such well remembered figures, but the novel was a lot of fun.

Mark and Susan, glad it wasn't just me who was a bit confused by the whole idea of impersonating the famous people - I didn't really understand this aspect although it was quite intriguing.

Yes, would anyone really link up an elderly clergyman, or judge, even if they were at the scene of a crime, and imagine they were involved? I doubt it. A red herring, perhaps, to make the police go in wrong directions? If so, it back fired, as both of those sightings led them to Bertrams...

I've read this book a number of times and still find the impersonation element of the plot confusing. It never makes sense to me. I think Agatha Christie just had so many ideas in those famous notebooks of hers that sometimes she threw extra things in just to use them up, like tidying away leftovers from a larder.

She did always write several endings, so you could be right, Annabel!

Judy, the ending in the book is slightly different then then TV version with Joan Hickson. I actually prefer the TV version over the book. But I like Joan Hickson's Miss Marble.

Judy wrote: "I found the plot of this book rather confusing overall (hoping to get it clearer in my head by watching the Joan Hickson TV version!).

Also I must admit I'm always a bit disappointed when it turns..."

So what happens to Elvira, viz. Chief Inspector Davy's assertion that he isn't going to let her get away with it? Is there a sequel somewhere that I don't know about?

Maybe Christie intended to write a sequel one day, which might have been really interesting. But I always just assumed that he meant that he was going to go after her and try to prove her guilt despite Bess's sacrifice. Or possibly that Elvira's bad start in life meant she was likely to commit another murder one day and he would eventually bring her down.

Christie is very interesting when she uses a murderer who committed their first crime as a child - they rarely improve with age! It's difficult to name any of her books which do that without spoilers, but Towards Zero is an obvious example. According to that logic, Elvira would be unlikely to 'straighten up' as she gets older so Inspector Davy will get her in the end.

No sequel, but given what we know of the C.I., I don't think she will get away with anything. Miss M will help see to that! They should easily trace Elvira's activities at the jewelers, and in Ireland.

Martha: I have to agree with you. The TV version with Joan Hickson is a but more coherent that the book.

I've just started re-reading this (first read it as a teenager!), have only finished ch.1 but wondered if anyone else was struck by the idea of Bertram's Hotel as a trompe l'oeil and therefore a kind of stand-in for Christie's own books where things are never quite the way they look on the surface?

In describing the transformation of the hotel we have:

It had been done so cleverly that it was not at all apparent at the first casual glance

... very reminiscent of Christie's own plots which definitely take more than a 'casual glance' to 'get' them.

And in describing Bertram's clientele:

the clergy, dowager ladies of the aristocracy up from the country, girls on their way home from the holidays from expensive finishing schools

... again, the typical characters/milieus of so many of Christie's mysteries.

If we saw this sort of thing now, we'd talk about metafiction - so great to see Christie on top of it back in 1965!

Oh, and does anyone know what 'seed cake' is?

Roman Clodia wrote: "Oh, and does anyone know what 'seed cake' is?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caraway...

You know, I also thought that 'not letting her get away with it' meant that she would be arrested and tried. You think of Miss Marple and fluffy and sweet, but she is quite hard!

Judy wrote: "I found the plot of this book rather confusing overall (hoping to get it clearer in my head by watching the Joan Hickson TV version!).

Also I must admit I'm always a bit disappointed when it turns..."

The conspiracy just added to the confusion over the actual murder- perhaps that was the point of it. It was suggested though by the "something fishy" feeling in the atmosphere of teh hotel- one starts to feel it more once the police start looking into teh Canon's disappearance.

Susan wrote: "You know, I also thought that 'not letting her get away with it' meant that she would be arrested and tried. You think of Miss Marple and fluffy and sweet, but she is quite hard!"

She certainly is but this was a case of calculated cold-blooded murder so no scope for pity.

Annabel wrote: "I've read this book a number of times and still find the impersonation element of the plot confusing. It never makes sense to me. I think Agatha Christie just had so many ideas in those famous note..."

This was the bit that seemed slightly Nancy Drewish to me- but the purpose seemed to be to confuse witnesses- rather than the "criminal" the police would think they've just seen well-known respectable people who had alibis anyway and would lose the trail.

Annabel wrote: "Christie is very interesting when she uses a murderer who committed their first crime as a child..."

She only seems to class in that category the kind of people who are essentially amoral- a trait which she thinks cannot ever change.

Martha wrote: "Judy, the ending in the book is slightly different then then TV version with Joan Hickson. I actually prefer the TV version over the book. But I like Joan Hickson's Miss Marble."

Thanks Martha - I hope to watch this in the next day or two and see what the changes are. I think this is one where the plot probably needed to be simplified a bit for TV!

Roman Clodia wrote: "I've just started re-reading this (first read it as a teenager!), have only finished ch.1 but wondered if anyone else was struck by the idea of Bertram's Hotel as a trompe l'oeil and therefore a ki..."

That's a great thought, RC - seems to sum up the world of the Miss Marple books perfectly. More tea, vicar, knitting... and murder.

Martha wrote: "Judy, the ending in the book is slightly different then then TV version with Joan Hickson. I actually prefer the TV version over the book. But I like Joan Hickson's Miss Marble.

Judy wrote: "I fou..."

I've always loved Margaret Rutherford as Miss Marple, but Joan Hickson was also a good Miss Marple.

I kind of think the plot should have been simplified for a novel! this is a confusing book for me, but I love that the hotel (and staff, of course) is a "character" in the story.

I looked to see if I could watch any of the video versions online (for free) and didn't find any. I think I will check this out from the library. can't wait to see what everyone looks like!

I always have my own image when reading and quite often the TV versions seem completely different. However, Joan Hickson was an excellent Miss Marple.

Yes, Joan Hickson is my spot-on perfect Miss Marple - exactly as I'd imagined her.

Anniegirl wrote: "Martha wrote: "Judy, the ending in the book is slightly different then then TV version with Joan Hickson. I actually prefer the TV version over the book. But I like Joan Hickson's Miss Marble.

Jud..."

I love the Margaret Rutherford movies though she is nothing like the Miss Marple of the books :)

Lady Clementina wrote: "Anniegirl wrote: "Martha wrote: "Judy, the ending in the book is slightly different then then TV version with Joan Hickson. I actually prefer the TV version over the book. But I like Joan Hickson's..."

No I agree, she is nothing like the Miss Marple in the books and Christie herself was very disappointed in how Rutherford portrayed Miss Marple in the films.

It's a little disconcerting that the main 'murder mystery' is that of Elvira and the Irish doorman (whose name I've forgotten - Mick something?), when so much of the interest of the book is on what's really going on at Bertram's Hotel.

Is this one of the only Marple books where we have organised crime at its heart rather than 'personal' murder?

Roman Clodia wrote: "It's a little disconcerting that the main 'murder mystery' is that of Elvira and the Irish doorman (whose name I've forgotten - Mick something?), when so much of the interest of the book is on what..."

As far as I recall, this is the only one.

Mickey Gorman was the doorman. It is sad about this murder, as it was not really necessary. Just because Elvira didn't understand the terms of her father's will.

I anticipated (incorrectly) that Mickey was Elvira's father and intentionally saved her life. Oh well; Elvira certainly didn't deserve any sacrifices. I think Father and Miss M will be able to get her put away; no one else needs to know Bess' confession.

I think the impersonations were unnecessary, as was changing the license plates to a number similar instead of completely different. But Bess was in it for the adventure, so making a game out of it was part of the fun.

I enjoyed the international plot, Father's character and investigating method, and the gradual uncovering of the underbelly of Bertram's. I would have liked Miss Marple to do more investigating, but at least she got new sheets and tea towels.

I also thought Mickey was Elvira's father. It seemed as though this was a red herring, but I am glad I wasn't the only person who thought it.

I also loved that Miss Marple decided against visiting galleries, etc and went to the shops instead. I would have done the same!

I have now watched the Joan Hickson version and enjoyed it - but I think even the simplified plot was still quite confusing!

I recently tried a couple of books by Ruth Rendell and disliked them intensely for their snobbish and old-fashioned attitudes - so it's especially wonderful to see how Christie hasn't dated even when, like here, she's clearly aware of how things have changed socially from when her first books were written.

I loved those tiny glimpses into Miss Marple's past - the unsuitable romance! And the way she's unfazed by 'modernity': the racing cars, the changes from the London she knew as a child.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I recently tried a couple of books by Ruth Rendell and disliked them intensely for their snobbish and old-fashioned attitudes - so it's especially wonderful to see how Christie hasn't dated even wh..."

I'm a bit surprised to hear this, RC - what were the books? it's a while since I read any Ruth Rendell, but she's an author I've really enjoyed in the past, especially her Barbara Vine books - I thought A Dark-Adapted Eye showed how damaging snobbishness can be, but I don't remember it in detail. I must have another look at her work.

Getting back to Miss Marple, I also loved the second glimpse of her youth and another romance - in the previous book (I think it was) we heard of a young man she gave up because her parents loved him and he was too dull, and now in this one it was an unsuitable man who Mother disapproved of!

P.S., it's funny you should mention Ruth Rendell, R.C., because when watching the Joan Hickson version of At Bertram's Hotel I was amused to see that George Baker, who played Inspector Wexford in the Ruth Rendell Mysteries on TV, was cast here as a rather similar inspector, Fred Davy!

Sandy wrote: "I would have liked Miss Marple to do more investigating, but at least she got new sheets and tea towels. ..."

Haha, that's a perfect comment, Sandy - I couldn't agree more. I love the way she enjoys London so much.

Judy wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "I recently tried a couple of books by Ruth Rendell and disliked them intensely for their snobbish and old-fashioned attitudes"

Yes, I was surprised, not at all what I expected from a Labour peer... the books were The Best Man to Die, A Sleeping Life, and An Unkindness of Ravens. In the last 'feminist' appears to be a synonym for 'psychopath'!

My reviews with details are here if you're interested, so as not to block up this thread:

www.goodreads.com/review/show/1953879618
www.goodreads.com/review/show/1960823951
www.goodreads.com/review/show/1974081191

So glad Christie, in contrast, hasn't dated.

Judy wrote: "P.S., it's funny you should mention Ruth Rendell, R.C., because when watching the Joan Hickson version of At Bertram's Hotel I was amused to see that George Baker, who played Inspector Wexford in t..."

😄 'Father' isn't nearly as grumpy as Wexford, at least from the books I read, though his final determination to 'get' Elvira has a Wexford feel about it, now you mention it!

Neither Ruth Rendell nor P D James were fans of Agatha, RC, but I agree that she has a timeless quality that has lasted. She also keeps away, generally, from most of the unpleasant racist/homophobic etc stereotypes that do appear in other works from the time.

Yes, thankfully - and from what I remember, Miss Marple later has a cleaner who lives on an estate but soon finds some village parallels to make sense of her.

Talking about the lack of homophobia, it's just struck me that Poirot has some qualities that tend to get thought of as stereotypically 'gay': his neatness, attention to aesthetic detail, sympathy for women, love of beauty, ability to gossip etc. That he also has a crush on bold women (the Russian Countess) might itself be a rejection of easy stereotypes and social exclusion.

I didn't know that Rendell and James didn't like Christie, Susan - how ironic when arguably their own books draw so much on the Christie tradition!

I think they probably suffered from comparison. In interviews P D James (who I like very much as a writer) is both critical and also admiring in turns. I agree that there are lots of similarities though.

I prefer the earlier James which are quite snappy and plot-driven. The later books get quite bloated for me - and I could never believe in her poet-policeman for a moment!

She tends to copy quite a lot from GA books though - the closed community, for example. She even went for a country house, of sorts, in her first novel, didn't she? No, the poet policeman was an odd idea.