Writers of Color Book Club discussion

This time around, our discussion will be lead by Elli from The Bibliophile & Katie from Effusions of Wit and we will do things a bit differently since we had a few mishaps last month with our discussion and people getting a bit spoiled.

In this discussion board, we will ONLY talk about Part One of Giovanni's Room. This includes Chapters 1-3 of this section. Please make sure that anything that you believe can be labeled as a spoiler be covered up with the (view spoiler)[ spoiler disclaimer (hide spoiler)]. This will guarantee that we all continue to have a positive experience as we read.

In terms of our liveshow, we will be choosing individuals who have posted at least once in each of the discussion boards designated for Giovanni's Room. This will insure that the chosen guest panelists will be a person who has read the book in it's entirety and also has some thoughts on what they've read.

I hope that everyone enjoys this month's selection, but if you don't make sure you come here and tell us why. All opinions are welcome!

Happy Reading!

I'm not sure how these discussions work, so here are some thoughts:

I finished reading part 1 and liked it very much! The writing is beautiful and melancholic. I will definitely read more Baldwin after this. At the very start of the book we learn that something major is about to happen so I can't wait to read the rest to see what events lead to that.

I really like Giovanni, he seems to be one of those kind, accepting people with a golden heart.

One thing that bugs me: I don't understand why David is lying to himself. Yes, being gay at that time was not a piece of cake but this is ridiculous! I wish he'd face the reality and be true to himself. He associates with many gay people, it's not like he would get judged by them for accepting who he is. He could clearly be happy with someone like Giovanni. I hope he does that in part 2:)

I've finished the book two days ago and I really like the writing. In this first part of the book I must say that I didn't enjoy a lot the main character so I was a bit afraid about the rest of the book. As you write Christina, I didn't understand either why David was lying to himself or more stupid to the other gay people.

I finished this last month. I find it sad how he rejects his feelings so much that he ends up hurting others.

I also find it sad just how much David is lying to himself! It seems he just cant accept himself.

I think it might have to do with his relationship with his father, I'm not sure if this is discussed in this section of the novel?

It's been a while since I read this book, I might need to skim certain sections again!

So glad to see others reading this book! I think the lying to himself about his sexuality quite understandable, to be honest. Even today when we're more accepting it's really hard to accept being gay/pan/bi/ace and I think David just so desperately wants to be heterosexual, that to an extent he thinks or hopes that if he tells himself he's straight, then he'll be straight?
I definitely found it really sad that he lied to himself, but I could understand it. Like Elli said, I felt it had to lot to do with his father. His upbringing had kind of taught and convinced him that homosexuality was not just a sin, but a sin that was repulsive. He clealy harbours a lot of internalised homophobia, as seems to be evident from the way he is very often disparaging of the gay men that he socialises with. So to me it felt like he was so disgusted at himself for being gay that it was easier for him to lie to himself?

Glad that everyone else is enjoying the writing style. Baldwin's prose was probably the thing that truly made me love this novel. I remember it being so beautiful.
I wish I had the book with me where I'm living atm so I could skim bits of it again!

Just wanted to throw something out there: I don't think you're supposed to "understand" why David doesn't accept who he is. He just doesn't. Sometimes you don't need a rational reason to dislike something about yourself. I mean I don't think he really has a "good" reason.

Also, the men that David surrounds himself with all have one important thing in common: they are European. David is American. That is a major factor into their acceptance of themselves and others.

I just wanted to say that since it wasn't brought up. Plus, I'm a Baldwin "fangirl." :)

Great discussion so far! I'm excited to see what everyone has to say as they get deeper into the novel.

That's a really good point, Danielle. And I guess that even if there is a reason (although I doubt there's one reason, more like a multitude of life experiences and actions and thoughts etc.) we, the reader, aren't necessarily going to know the reason. Or each reader can come up with their own theories, or just choose to accept that we don't know why. The beauty of books and everyone having different interpretations!

Also, I hadn't considered the American/European difference that much before with regards to self-acceptance, but that's a great point and something that's almost intrinsic to the novel.

(Always happy to meet a fellow Baldwin fangirl :P)

I agree with Danielle- I just think David is naturally a jerk. His self loathing compounded with his arrogance and cruelty are a terrible combination.

I just finished this section! I'm really liking the writing so far. I'll definitely pick up another Baldwin in the future. I can understand why David can't accept himself, I mean, homosexuality was illegal for a long time and he risks everything if he tries to be who he really is.

Danielle (OneSmallPaw) wrote: "Just wanted to throw something out there: I don't think you're supposed to "understand" why David doesn't accept who he is. He just doesn't. Sometimes you don't need a rational reason to dislike so..."

Good points!

That last scene in Part One with the landlady at the resort in the south of France...wow! Baldwin is such a master of his craft. He dropped so much into that little vignette, used her character to foreshadow and even illuminate so much of what is going on within David himself...I swear I wanted to break out into applause after I turned that page.
No intelligent analyzing here, just gushing...!

Danielle (OneSmallPaw) wrote: "Just wanted to throw something out there: I don't think you're supposed to "understand" why David doesn't accept who he is. He just doesn't. Sometimes you don't need a rational reason to dislike so..."

I actually think that there is the reason why he is afraid to accept his homosexuality/bisexuality. He is afraid of social alienation, I would consider it one of the major themes of the novel. Even nowadays, this is a major case why so many people are afraid to come out and lets remember we are talking about 50ties. It's one thing to have a gay relationship whithin gay community and the other to take it one step further and came out in front of your relatives (David's father etc). This is why David, in my opinion, doesn't want to accept who he is.

I've read that Baldwin's publisher told him to burn this book because he was afraid that it will alienate him from Afro-American readers.
This novel is also is very autobiographical, Baldwin all his life was struggling with social alienation, in a way. First being Afro American writer during the time of still strong racial prejudice and this feeling was strengthen by his sexuality.

Kamil wrote: "Danielle (OneSmallPaw) wrote: "Just wanted to throw something out there: I don't think you're supposed to "understand" why David doesn't accept who he is. He just doesn't. Sometimes you don't need ..."

Great points, Kamil! I agree and disagree but only slightly. I believe David has no intention of ever going back to America and I doubt he even considered his father's feelings on the issue of his sexuality. So although I do agree with the social alienation part, I don't necessarily think it is the main reason why he struggles with self acceptance.

I wrote a similar thing in the Chapter 4-5 discussion board about his relationship with Lucien and how it is the basis of Giovanni's Room. I've read pretty much all you can read about Baldwin so I definitely know about all of that. I hope that didn't sound bratty. Gah, it would be so much easier if we all could talk in person! :)

Danielle (OneSmallPaw) wrote: "Kamil wrote: "Danielle (OneSmallPaw) wrote: "Just wanted to throw something out there: I don't think you're supposed to "understand" why David doesn't accept who he is. He just doesn't. Sometimes y..."

Thank you for nice words , nevertheless I have to slightly disagree:). I do not think that intentions really matter, I think we are always judge by the people from our families, even if only in our heads. Besides for David going back to States meant going back "to be straight" etc so I guess it's not really about intentions but trying to convince yourself you are able to make yourself be the way you think you ought to be, because you think this is the only way people will accept you. I'm going to another post to see what you have written there:)

I FINALLY finished this section.

My initial reaction is that David has one of the worst cases of self-loathing that I've seen in fiction behind Quentin from The Magicians by Lev Grossman and Holden Caulfield from Catcher In The Rye. I now understand why since I've viewed Danielle's earlier comment about the fact that David is American.

One of my two question is whether or not David is actually African-American? I noticed on the audiobook cover that I recently picked up that the portrayal of David is of a Caucasian man....or maybe that's Giovanni. If someone could point me to the actual place where they describe David, that'd be super helpful.

It seems like David is using his image of being a straight man as a sort of "passing" mechanism to curb the danger of dealing with being gay. Just like some light-skinned African-Americans choose to pass for white to reap the benefits, I feel like this particular character is holding up a front of being "bi-sexual" so that he can keep up the pretense that he is all man. My reasoning for this is that not only does his narration seem as if it is questionable at best, the proposal he gave to Hella in Chapter 2 (?) seemed sort of like a beard type thing where all David wanted was a woman to hide behind to prove to the world/himself that he couldn't be gay because he was willing to wed a woman.

Lastly, I really like how Baldwin has specific minor characters converse with David randomly (or so it seems to me in my reading so far) to warn him about his upcoming actions. I especially loved the conversation with the one Drag Queen in the bar when he basically tells him that Giovanni is going to put him in danger. I may not always enjoy Baldwin's books overall, but if I could choose a narrator/person to pen my life he'd win hands down. His prose is so well written and beautiful, but also so matter of fact. I heart it!

Adira wrote: "I FINALLY finished this section.

My initial reaction is that David has one of the worst cases of self-loathing that I've seen in fiction behind Quentin from The Magicians by Lev Grossman and Holde..."
I believe there was a point where they describe David as having blond hair - as well as the fact that in the first paragraph its referenced that "my ancestors conquered a continent" alluding to the fact that he's American. (I'm sorry, I don't have my book on hand, but I hope that helps).

There was A LOT of backlash when the book was published, because Baldwin, who is Black, was writing White characters -and on top of that, they were homosexuals. It was quite the uproar.

Ah! So David is white?

Adira wrote: "Ah! So David is white?"

Yup.

That's so weird. Before I noticed the cover I thought that his anguish was coming from not wanting to be a Black man who identified as gay. I thought that if he was white, he wouldn't be so adverse to the idea since whites in the era Baldwin was writing this particular novel had the upper hand race wise and his sexuality would be balanced out by his color. I feel like David's narrative of being powerless now becomes even more questionable to me since it seems more like he is writing with a skewed perception of his life. I say this knowing that it is hard for anyone to come out in any facet of their lives whenever they are different to the norm however, David as the chapters go along seems to be creating this self-image of himself that is built around a general unacceptance of being gay or happy.

Adira wrote: "That's so weird. Before I noticed the cover I thought that his anguish was coming from not wanting to be a Black man who identified as gay. I thought that if he was white, he wouldn't be so adverse..."

Well, I think a lot of it WAS self-imposed. I don't think pressure for him to be straight was coming from anyone BUT himself. Perhaps he picked up on messages from society (it was the 1950s after all), or his family, but at the core, he couldn't come to terms with his own sexuality, with being different, and it absolutely destroyed him. (And Giovanni).

It's sad but understandable on how David feels abut his sexuality. I feel that it's a summation of his upbringing, American culture, the time period, etc which is why he can't fully accept himself. Also there was a few lines where he says that a man was found out to be a "fairy" and was sent to jail and when he heard that story it scares him a lot.

Crud! I forgot about that fact. I guess, I always just assumed that the main backlash for people who are gay or lesbian came from cultures who are highly religious and fully against this believed sexual abnormality. This is why I spent the 3/4 of the book believing that David must be from a minority. I never factored into my reading that David was relating to his sexuality through the lens of it being a crime in America at the time.

Adira wrote: "That's so weird. Before I noticed the cover I thought that his anguish was coming from not wanting to be a Black man who identified as gay. I thought that if he was white, he wouldn't be so adverse..."

Guys, prior to 1962, sodomy was a felony in every state, punished by a lengthy term of imprisonment and/or hard labor. Being white would balance nothing. Seriously, think about it, first it was a crime/felony to perform homosexual acts, second even when things got better later on, in the future, it was still a burden that created social ostracism.
Homosexuals were on the margin of the society as a group (I'm not talking about famous/rich individuals that were able, fortunately to create a bubble they could live) up until the 80ties and 90ties in most of the western countries while eastern world still discriminates them (recently passed anti-gay acts in Lithuania of Russia)

Kamil wrote: "Adira wrote: "That's so weird. Before I noticed the cover I thought that his anguish was coming from not wanting to be a Black man who identified as gay. I thought that if he was white, he wouldn't..."

Thank you for making me aware of that fact Kamil. I'm glad that this reading this particular book opened my eyes to that particular fact. I never realized that it was actually a crime to be gay in "first-world" countries until I watched ill Your Darlings and even then, I just assumed that the brunt of the hate came from overly religious cultures so this particular book has been eye opening in that regard.

Ah yes the illegality of homosexual acts was common in many first-world countries. Here in the UK sodomy was illegal until 1962, and even when legalised it was only okay if they were 21 years old (5 years older than the heterosexual legal age of consent here) and did it in private. It was only in 2000 that male homosexual acts were made just as legal as heterosexual ones.
It's really horrifying to see just how recent these laws were in place. And even when legalised, social acceptance takes a lot longer.

So yeah, France does have a history of being more liberal, but I think that despite it being "okay" for David to have come out whilst in France, he has a whole life of living in America where homosexuality was illegal and just not acceptable. I think that it was all too much pressure and internalised homophobia for him to actually overcome.
Idk I always feel in the minority because I actually kind of like David, despite his obvious flaws! (:

Well, I just finished this section as well. Better late than never!
I love how easy it is to get into Baldwin's writing (this is my first Baldwin book and it certainly won't be the last!)

What speculations have you made about Giovanni's demise? I have a gut feeling it would play out like this: Giovanni gets in trouble and needs David's help, but since David doesn't want anyone to think he is gay or friends with someone that is, he ignores Giovanni and lets him go. (much less descriptive than what I have played out in my head lol) I don't want anything to happen to Gio so I'm dreading what lies in the pages ahead

Sylvia wrote: "Well, I just finished this section as well. Better late than never!
I love how easy it is to get into Baldwin's writing (this is my first Baldwin book and it certainly won't be the last!)

What s..."
So glad you're anjoying this read! It was my first Baldwin, when I read it in March, and it felt like a great place to start with him.

I can't speculate with you about what happens with Giovanni (as I know, having read the book a few months ago :P), but good luck with the rest of the book and I hope you enjoy it, despite it's rather bleak tone haha! (:

Sylvia wrote: "What speculations have you made about Giovanni's demise?"

I've been thinking about this a lot too! I assume it has to be something major if Giovanni's being sent to the guillotine... but I can't think of what. My instinct is to think that it has something to do with his sexuality, but since the guy at the bar warned David about Giovanni being dangerous, it seems like Giovanni might have been part of some illegal activity?

I'm really interested to figure out what's going on. haha I feel like we keep getting little mysterious teasers that just make me want to figure it out faster.

I would describe David as being in deep denial and repressing parts of his identity more than I would as self-loathing, but maybe that's just me?


I think it’s interesting how the older gay men are painted in more of a negative, predatory way. It’s clear that he’s not comfortable with himself but it’s almost as if he’s projecting that onto others, too. He wants so badly to associate with that world but without actually succumbing to it or admitting anything to himself. And it was really interesting that David felt relief when Giovanni took the lead and made things sexual with him before he could "explain" himself... almost as if he could give himself permission to enjoy it as long as he wasn't initiating it.

I live in the southern US where some people are still attacked and murdered for their sexual expression, so imagining people dealing with their identity 60 years ago and not being comfortable with it makes complete sense to me. I think I'm more shocked that some people feel that he should be 100% a-ok with a part of himself that was considered really scandalous and illegal considering the time period he's coming from. It seems like the conversation with the landlady where she asks him about Hella and talks to him about settling down and finding a girl is included to emphasize how much pressure and expectation he was feeling.


I definitely agree that the writing is awesome! The way that the timeline skips around is interesting to me. It’s building tension but also showing us David’s disposition at different parts of his life. This foreshadowing is REALLY heavy-handed but it makes me interested in seeing what will come next.