Our Shared Shelf discussion

My friend read the book and loved it... but not as a dystopia. She's realized that she would've wanted to have a traditional family and "belong" to a man, but like most modern women she was "pressured" to get an education and have a career. Her family is quite well-off and it would've been possible for her not to work and just help at home instead. She also identified as bisexual as long as I've known her, but now she believes homosexuality is wrong. I still can't understand how she could change so much. When we were around 20 and I was determined to remain a virgin until marriage, she was shocked and said it was wrong to get married without knowing whether you'll be compatible in bed.

FWIW in fiction she usually likes the villains, and in this book she admires Fred :/ (I haven't actually read it myself but she's shown me a lot of nauseating quotes)

I'm not actually trying to change her mind but this makes me so sad :(

Marina, sounds like she is mixing fact and fiction, immaturity is not a crime I am sure experience will disabuse her of any value in a patriarchy real or imagined soon enough. In the mean time why not get her involved with OSS she will find that enlightening I am sure.

Yeah though your friend is an independent person. She sounds like she might benefit from more perspective? Maybe travel, more books, or generally change in her surroundings.

but also respect that she can make her own decisions, and if she would like a traditional family and traditional family values, that is her right. You should just hope that she is indeed happy and try to continue to be part of the happiness in a fulfilling way

I feel like some women, by education, incorporated their "domination" and the patriarcal system so much taht they seem to like it, and try to have a project in this context. She knows whats she does, just let her became aware of her own "submission" even if I don't like using this word.

She isn't interested in creating a real-life family and she definitely romanticizes patriarchy too much :( In her fantasy she's Fred's handmaid, she pleases him and he takes care of her, sometimes making kind gestures like letting her read books.
Now that I think of it, it probably has to do with her frustration at work.
She's actually travelled a lot and reads much more than I do too.
I kind of agree with her that people who'd like a "traditional" family are at a downside now, and I've always said that feminism is about having a choice, not about telling women what choice to make.

Sounds a bit odd to look at it from this angle but if your friend is talking about her 'fantasy' being Fred's handmaid and pleasing him while he takes care of her by 'allowing' the odd treat of reading a book... Your friend might be experiencing more of a fetish than an actual lifestyle change; especially if she isn't actually interested in creating a real-life traditionalist family. Is she quite high up in her career? Possibly managing others and making important decisions all the time? Because I read a very interesting article about men that seek out the services of a Dominatrix and they usually tend to be important business men who spend their days being in control and making all the decisions... living out the fantasy of someone else taking full control over them seems to be a reliever of their stresses. Maybe your friend is going through a similar sort of thing? And maybe it will stay in the realm of fantasy, fiction and fetish for her.

The "freedom" in that sort of fetish can be appealing to those who make decisions all day to those who are overwhelmed by making decisions.

But back on topic..

To understand how your friend changed so much, I recommend talking more with her. If the old things / activities are no longer her thing, maybe a neutral area to start... Like a coffee shop at a book store or a going to a movie together and grabbing food after.

Just remember house husbands exist in our world today with no shame, house wives can too. Doesn't make her a bad feminist, just means she wants someone to care for her and to care for them in return

She's not a feminist at all and she calls feminism toxic. I would have less problems with those views if she didn't apply those ideas towards other women... quite a twisted irony.

We've talked a lot, though only online. I really don't see other influences apart from this book (and her dissatisfaction with life)
edit: another factor is the general atmosphere of homophobia, increasing influence of the church and anti-abortion activism in Russia :(

I was hoping not to speak too much about her life here... nope, she's never been a boss. In fact it turned out she's quit her job. Nowadays her only obligation is housework, but her mum wants her to either work at least a little as a private tutor or do some charity. (Sounds reasonable and she's lucky to have these choices)
Well, time will tell whether she'll be happy like that or it will turn out to be more like a sabbatical after which she'll have a desire to work again.

I guess my implied question was: have you ever met anti-feminists, pro-birthers or queerphobic people who interpreted this book differently from most of us here and/or used this book to argue for these things?

I don't think I've ever met a female anti feminist, though definitely know some people more traditional views or are against the feminist tag.

I had some strong discussions on whether or not [in the book] Women were active participants and perpetrators of the society in Gilead. I think Atwood, for sure is pointing out that women can be as sexist as men, and could bbe part of the problem

By anti-feminist I also mean those who say humanism is enough, that they treat everyone equally and labels are divisive, etc :/ Although of course it's not as bad as saying that women should accept their biological destiny and be proud of it, and sugarcoat it with the "right not to work and to be taken care of" bs.

could not agree more Marina

Emma wrote: "Winston wrote: "I don't think I've ever met a female anti feminist, though definitely know some people more traditional views or are against the feminist tag.

I had some strong discussions on whe..."
in a show there was a woman anti feminist back to the 90's

I think people are afraid to be catalogued as a something they don't really understand. For example, my cousin told me once that she was a sexist, not a feminist. She's 5 years older than me, and I thought she couldn't be more wrong with that, because she wants/loves to work and also to be the one who manages the hotel where she works.

With that I mean, people sometimes don't really know much about tags or what they really do. I'm sure my cousin wouldn't prefer to stay at home taking care of the kids, as a sexist would think.

The best thing is to have the possibilty to choose whatever makes you happy.

No, I mean everyone should have the freedom to choose to stay at home (if you can do it and you want it), or to work in something you really enjoy, or doing with you life whatever you want. Of course I don't mean whatever actions, but for example if you want to work during a period and in some years quit to have children, I think it's your decision.

About tags I didn't see me as a feminist before I really thought about it, but in fact I was. So to me a label sometimes is not that important as your actions/thoughts. (I'm not sure if I made that understandable).

Eugenia wrote: "So to me a label sometimes is not that important as your actions/thoughts. (I'm not sure if I made that understandable). "

Totally understandable.