The Sword and Laser discussion

I've had a really hard time getting into this book, and have been thinking about why. Most likely it's because I need a good protagonist to really latch onto a major world building story and stay interested. Yuri doesn't seem to have much personality in the beginning of the book.

Below I have spoilers only for those that haven't read at least 10% into HS, but they're properly tagged so you can still avoid them and answer the question I ask at the end:

Yuri doesn't really exhibit much personality at the start of the story. He's a tribal barbarian of some kind in a frozen climate... (view spoiler)[his father gets shanghaied and Yuri throws a tantrum at the humanoid elk creatures that took him. They ignore him. He's boring. Then he just wanders around and survives until he kills a couple traders and steals their stuff, only so you can read about him learning the bureaucracy of city living in a giant cave? (hide spoiler)] That's kind of a hard sell if you're not giving some reason to like the character.

I'm still going to push through HS, because I'm a completionist (most of the time), but it got me wondering about other people's preferences in science fiction and fantasy. Do you care less about the character development if you have strange races of creatures, dynamic cultures, and a stark contrast of different climates, religions, and economies, or do you get bored with all that stuff pretty quickly if you don't have someone you can immediately identify with? I fall into the latter category. I love world building and interesting culture dynamics, but I might as well read an anthropology book if I'm not going to get an interesting character. I hope it gets better soon!

You'll be pleased to know Yuli isn't in most of the book.

There is a time leap after the Prelude. His grandson becomes one of the major characters.

I love world building, but like you, I want that world inhabited by interesting characters.

I think the Helliconia series has both. Not all the characters are likeable, but a lot of them, (even the villains), are interesting

TheBijass wrote: "I've had a really hard time getting into this book, and have been thinking about why. Most likely it's because I need a good protagonist to really latch onto a major world building story and stay i..."

Me too! I too struggled with especially the first part of this book - Yuli was not an appealing character for me.
The characters in the latter part of the book were a bit better, but still not very interesting (have to disagree with you, I'm afraid, Tassie Dave) and I still felt the book lacked a strong protagonist to root for.
I can forgive a lot in a book if I find the characters compelling, but for me a book without at least one really strong character feels soulless, however well-constructed it is otherwise.

The characters around him (Shay Tal and Vry in particular) were interesting but I found our main character Laintal Ay to be very passive. (view spoiler)[He does some stuff with horses but otherwise he's mainly an observer. We're not given much reason to root for him or against him, or to care what happens to him. (hide spoiler)]

I'm almost a third of the way in, and I've yet to find a single actual character, let alone someone capable of the term "protagonist." Every individual so far has been little more than a cardboard cut out going through the motions of the "plot". I get no real sense of who they are, or their motivations.

It might help if for every two pages of stuff with actual, living characters I wasn't subjected to 20+ pages of oral history/ mythology about people who are already dead.

I'll try and push on, but if the great nothing that is this book so far continues to not happen, I'm dropping it and giving it one star.

Tassie Dave wrote: "You'll be pleased to know Yuli isn't in most of the book."

Gosh, am I alone in liking the boy? I'm about three quarters into the first chapter of the audiobook (long first chapter!) and am sad to hear he will not be in the rest of book. I mean, sure, he is basically just eyes and ears to the world but I admire his determination.

There are characters that you will like as much as Yuli. Some I think you will like more.

^I didn't like Yuli, even if he was the protagonist.

(view spoiler)[He kills too easily, and seeks to dominate other people. I don't buy it as "that's the way it is on that world." I find him to be self-centered and arrogant. (hide spoiler)]

Will push on, but the story will have to greatly improve to interest me in the sequels. Now at 25% mark.

For me, it didn't pick up until about the one-third mark. Way late, but at least I finally got somewhat invested.

John (Taloni) wrote: "Will push on, but the story will have to greatly improve to interest me in the sequels. Now at 25% mark."

I'd say if you don't like Spring, you won't like Summer. Even I found it dragged on a bit.
I loved Winter though. That, for me is the stand out book of the series.

My ratings of the series:
Helliconia Spring is 3.5 Stars.
Helliconia Summer is 2.5 Stars
Helliconia Winter is 4 Stars

Where the F*** is Helliconia Autumn? ;-)

The series as a whole I would rate at 3.5 Stars.

After the talk of whether the series inspired Martin for "A Song of Ice and Fire" I smiled when twice in "Helliconia Winter" the phrases:
"The winter is coming" and "Winter's coming" were used
and there was talk of (view spoiler)[building a wall to keep the monsters at bay during the long winter (hide spoiler)]

I noticed that several times a world detail would be repeated closely together, and was wondering why. Some examples:

(view spoiler)[
Prelude: some to a punishment farm behind market called Twink.
A few pages later: One of the sectors of Punishment was a cavern called Twink.

Chapter 11: the traders' quarters - nicknamed the Pauk - developing to the south side.
Also in chapter 11: Oldorando's slaves toiled to erect a separate township, known ironically as the Pauk. Here all trade was conducted. (hide spoiler)]

I couldn't think of a reason or pattern as to why these certain details were repeated to the reader. Were they something of significance?

I am about 50% in, and I have to say that there are no really compelling characters. I do hope it picks up, as I am also a completionist.

It does pick up, at about the 75-80% mark. I thought someone noted that above but couldn't find it. Anyhoo, I'm at the 85% mark and saying "why did you take so long?"

This book won't be your favorite, but it looks like it's going to end...well, not strong, but better.

Aaaaannnndddd...done. And returned, so whoever else had it on hold can read it now.

Most of my objections to the book were stated above. Many of the plot points remain ridiculous. I don't see any way that the population that suddenly appeared when it warmed up could have been there during the winter. There simply wasn't enough food. I would have put the planet's population at least two orders of magnitude smaller.

And, there's no freaking way that an intelligent species keeps records of something 8 million years in the past and doesn't develop space travel. Then there's the incredible, and silly, coincidences that set up major plot points, or the convenient virus. This book is just full of nope.

Sadly, I have to agree.

I really loved the mental exercise of devising a world that is in constant flux due to unique orbit pattern. That made me stay for hours thinking about how it would be.

But I do agree with the general opinion on this thread - the lack of strong characters, or a meaningful plot made it more a chore than a pleasure to read it.

Random thought, we do have a world which has an unusual orbital issue. It concerns a captured planet with a cometary style orbit, dragging in parasites from the Oort cloud of that solar system.

The planet is called Pern and of course that's the Red Star dragging Thread. But McCaffrey started with a duel, a hidden member of royalty called to a greater mission, and fire breathing dragons that turn out to have even more special gifts. The astrophysics came as if by osmosis, and the lost colony aspect in small pieces, as when the Pernese used "Agenothree" (HNO3) to burn fallen Thread.

And THAT is the difference between a dry science driven book and one that runs on characterization.