Reading the 20th Century discussion

Alwynne wrote: "I'd go for Pym, a few I haven't read and a number I'd happily reread!"

Hurrah! And it would be fun to keep track of the characters who pop up across different books.

Ben, in answer to your question, almost all the Pyms I've read were 4-5 stars, only one 3-star that I recall.

Update:
Barbara Pym: RC, Vesna, Nigeyb, possibly Ben, Alwynne
Muriel Spark: Vesna, Ben

I'd dip into the women writers - Brookner, Murdoch, Pym, Spark. Maybe Drabble, but I have not read anything by her.

Yes to John Le Carre. I've read all Shirley Jackson but would re-read.

Other possible authors I would like to read in order are:
Hilary Mantel
Beryl Bainbridge
Ian Rankin
Somerset Maugham
Belinda Bauer

This group has WAY too many good ideas. :-)

I would try hard to participate in long-term/complete as possible reads of any of these authors:
Barbara Pym
Shirley Jackson
Somerset Maugham
Hilary Mantel

Other authors I've enjoyed and would watch for buddy reads of:
Murdoch, Lessing, LeGuin, Drabble

Of the names posed so far, Pym is the one I'm most interested in. Le Carré is a close second, but there are so many I'm not sure I'd be up for reading them all, unless we spaced them out over several years. (I'm currently about halfway through the new Vance audios of the Smiley series, so I'm already primed.)

EDIT: I meant to include Spark in the list of authors I'd like to read in their entirety.


I'd join in some titles of most of the others, but I'm not ready to commit to a full project.

I’ve read most of Barbara Pym and relatively recently, they’re great.
I’d most like to read Muriel Spark or Anita Brookner.

So far we have:

Barbara Pym: RC, Vesna, Nigeyb, possibly Ben, Alwynne, G, Kathleen
Muriel Spark: Vesna, Ben, SueLucie
Le Carré's Smiley: Ben, Susan, possibly G
Shirley Jackson: Susan, Kathleen, possibly RC
Somerset Maugham: Susan, Kathleen
Hilary Mantel: Susan, Kathleen

So it looks like Barbara Pym is a definite. We can leave this open for a bit and see if there are other ideas or takers. No-one wants to overload themselves with buddy reads but if a group wants to go ahead without a mod, we'll happily set up threads.

I am happy to run the Le Carre books if Ben and maybe G is keen? I don't want to overload myself until after Harrogate, so probably August for the first one. I am going to see The Spy Who Came In From the Cold next January, so I will be reading the first 3 anyway.

Pym, I have never read. If you do them, I will try the first if I have time.

Barbara Comyns might also be worth considering.

Susan wrote: "I am happy to run the Le Carre books if Ben and maybe G is keen?"

That would be great, Susan. I'll probably join too, depending on time.

I'm happy to organize the Barbara Pym - don't want to pressure you but I'm convinced you'll love her!

Pym appeared a lot on Books and Authors A Good Read, I remember. I will try, RC.

I will also set up a discussion thread for the first John Le Carre book for August, if that works. Anyone who wishes to join in can do so. It gives people time.

Should we start with Smiley? Just a reminder of those in order:
Smiley
1. Call for the Dead (1961)
2. A Murder of Quality (1962)
3. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (1963)
4. The Looking Glass War (1965)
5. Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (1974)
6. The Honourable Schoolboy (1977)
7. Smiley's People (1979)
8. The Secret Pilgrim (1990)
9. A Legacy of Spies (2017)

Or, does anybody want to read them all in order:
Novels
A Small Town in Germany (1968)
The Naive and Sentimental Lover (1971)
The Little Drummer Girl (1983)
A Perfect Spy (1986)
The Russia House (1989)
The Night Manager (1993)
Our Game (1995)
The Tailor of Panama (1996)
Single and Single (1999)
The Constant Gardener (2000)
Absolute Friends (2003)
The Mission Song (2006)
A Most Wanted Man (2008)
Our Kind of Traitor (2010)
A Delicate Truth (2013)
Agent Running in the Field (2019)
Silverview (2021)

Either way, Call for the Dead is first, so we'll start with that and we can discuss it afterwards.

Alwynne wrote: "Barbara Comyns might also be worth considering."

I know next to nothing about her, but have run across her name a number of times. I'd be up for this if anyone else is.

Also, if there's interest in reading through Spark I'd join in. I edited an earlier post to say so, but a few folks might have seen it before it was edited.

My preference is to start with the Smileys and then go on from there.

Reading Le Carre and Pym is a great combination.

Susan wrote: "Should we start with Smiley? Just a reminder of those in order:"

I like Ben's original idea of starting with Smiley - we can always move on to the others if we want. Thanks for setting this up!

G wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Barbara Comyns might also be worth considering."

I know next to nothing about her, but have run across her name a number of times. I'd be up for this if anyone else is."

I haven't read Comyns so would give a book a try but wouldn't want to commit to a read of all her books at this point.

G wrote: "Also, if there's interest in reading through Spark I'd join in."

Muriel Spark: Vesna, Ben, SueLucie, G - as there's four of you, let us know if you want to go ahead with this, first book, start date etc. and we can set up a thread for you.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Muriel Spark: Vesna, Ben, SueLucie, G - as there's four of you, let us know if you want to go ahead with this, first book..."

I seconded Ben's mentioning Spark only if she is the final choice but since Pym is my favored preference, then I'll commit only to Pym. I'm afraid I can't do both Pym and Spark.

Agreed. Happy to Spark after we Pym

I always get carried away with buddy read proposals, then realize I can't keep up. So for now I think I'll stick with Pym, and will look in on the Le Carré Smiley discussions. (Since I just read the first 5 volumes in the last year, I don't plan to reread those.)

I get carried away too. I will happily run Le Carre and have set up the first thread for August. Sorry I can't commit before then, so hope that works for everyone.

I’ve read all the Smileys and loved the experience. I’m not sure I’m ready to reread them just yet but might cherry pick a few firm favourites. I think they all have plenty to recommend them and it’s fascinating to observe the evolution of the character

Either way I’ll join in the discussions

Thanks everyone: so, to confirm, we'll be buddy reading John le Carre's Smiley series starting in August.

And Barbara Pym in publication order starting in September. We'll read each author every two months, alternating between the two. I'll post the Pym schedule and set up the first thread later today.

How lovely to have two such brilliant - and yet different - authors to look forward to!

Here's the Pym book list: I've changed the order to writing date, rather than date published partly because Crampton Hodnet which was written c.1940 but not published till 1985 introduces characters who we meet again later. I'll cross-post this list on the dedicated Pym thread.

Crampton Hodnet (completed circa 1940, published posthumously, 1985)
Some Tame Gazelle (1950)
Excellent Women (1952)
Jane and Prudence (1953)
Less than Angels (1955)
A Glass of Blessings (1958)
No Fond Return of Love (1961)
An Unsuitable Attachment (written 1963; published posthumously, 1982)
Quartet in Autumn (1977)
The Sweet Dove Died (1978)
A Few Green Leaves (completed 1979/1980; published posthumously, 1985)

There seems to be a core group of Pym-ites here planning to read the whole set but please also feel free to dip in and out as you choose - everyone is welcome!

I had this thread marked for notifications but still did not get any and was surprised to see we're starting this project this year. While I'm not sure I have time this year, luckily I have read the first 3 Pyms but would love to join in next year starting with Jane and Prudence. I already own a copy of it. I am a completist and will likely follow that tendency with Pym.

Doing Pyms in writing rather than publication order really makes sense. The only downside is that Crampton Hodnet is so good, IMO even more excellent than the very good Excellent Women, the read may peak too early.

Reading all the Smiley's and more is a real good idea for a project read. But I struggled with LeCarre's style and thought Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy was not nearly as enjoyable a read as I had hoped.

So while I'm in on the Pym, I'll likely read nary a LeCarre.

Delighted that you'll be joining us on our Pym-athon, Brian!

They're so short and there's so much enthusiasm here that I thought it was worth starting in back-to-school September, and to keep in tandem with the Smiley project.

That said, it's no problem at all for you, and anyone else, to join in wherever you like.

I also love Crampton Hodnet and it makes sense to start there as it introduced two characters who we meet again in Jane and Prudence.

Roman Clodia wrote: "They're so short and there's so much enthusiasm here that I thought it was worth starting in back-to-school September, and to keep in ..."

It does make sense. After 16 years of school and over 30 more years of having children going to school, my mental clock has been somewhat trained to operate as if the beginning of September is the fresh start of a new year. Kind of an alternative new year's start but one in the crisp refreshing September air rather than the cold blustery January air. I've always liked September for that.

I work in education - my diaries always run August through July. New Year is meaningless for me, my year starts in September...

Susan wrote: "I work in education - my diaries always run August through July. New Year is meaningless for me, my year starts in September..."

Of course it does, Susan. Working in education after a life getting educated is a clincher for feeling that September is the start of a new year.

My wife was a teacher until she retired in 2016 and never taught summer school so that was big a factor with my mental programming. I certainly should have mentioned that. So, if she asks, tell my wife that her teaching career was the first and primary factor I cited for my feeling that September was the new year start month. Thanks.

Brian E wrote: ".. I struggled with LeCarre's style and thought Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy was not nearly as enjoyable a read as I had hoped.
So while I'm in on the Pym, I'll likely read nary a LeCarre.."

But then again, I did kind of promise my long-time buddy and Le Carre fan that I'd give him another try. He recommended I try The Spy Who Came In from the Cold so, when the time comes, I'll probably give-it-a-go.
And while I was disappointed in the Tinker movie either, I very much enjoyed the miniseries of both The Night Manager and the The Little Drummer Girl and enjoyed the movies of The Constant Gardener and The Tailor of Panama

Excellent, we'll look forward to you joining us for Spy Who Came in From the Cold, Bri. If it helps, that was the first le Carre I tried as a teenager and I abandoned it - when I came back to le Carre within the last decade I found it one of the most audacious.

Those BBC series (Night Manager, Drummer Girl) are brilliant and changed the plots so the books are complementary. Constant Gardener is one of my favorites.

I guess I'm saying that I can understand not clicking with the le Carre books immediately but once I did, he became one of my revered authors.

Brian E wrote:


"I was disappointed in the Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy movie"

It's certainly very different from the classic BBC series with Alec Guinness but it's still probably my favourite film of the 21st century. I love it. That final scene! Talk about show don't tell....

https://youtu.be/aPAqAuOGSFA?si=kmNE1...

And the use of the live Julio Iglesias version of La Mer - was there ever a better use of music and film?

Stunning

Interestingly, I tried the BBC/Alec Guinness series at Christmas when it was available on iPlayer as part of their vintage/retrospective and got bored in the first episode. It captures all the grey mundanity combined with post-imperial arrogance of The Circus but I think I missed the JlC voice.

😵‍💫 🤠


I have the DVD and rewatch it every five years of so

Boredom is about as far removed from my reaction as it's possible to be

Guinness inhabits the role. Indeed JLC said he had AG stuck in his head forever afterwards

Thing is le Carre is not writing spy stories as such. That his characters are MI 5/6, The Company (CIA) or Russia House is as much happenstance as it is what he trying to address.

Mostly he is asking questions about the limits of loyalty. What is love in the face of conflicting demands? Look closely, and see past the jobs people held and ask what is the real conflict?

If you want the sexy gadgets and too readily available women, that is what James Bond and the rest are all about. Although try to notice that in the books JB rarely has more than one woman, only in the movies does he spend that much time on the make.

Although
Edward Lumas (The Spy Who) and James Bond both begin at the same point. Worn out operatives questioning their ability and the worth of their jobs. JB decides that there are good guys and bad guys and he is one of the good.

JLC is always about the people. None are that good and only a few are that bad. Each, if seen from their own POV is on the right side, most, all<?> have to ask if the game is worth the cost to play.

Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog wrote: "Thing is le Carre is not writing spy stories as such"

Yes, I'd agree that though many - not all - of his books have some kind of espionage setting, his real themes are deeper. He often depicts bleak worlds filled with lonely, wounded, betrayed sometimes mean, greedy and egotistical characters.

At the same time, I think the politics of the settings do matter. Through The Circus, for example, JlC explores Britain's refusal to understand its place in a post-imperial world - all those old men still trading on old war records, for example.

Non Smiley books have exposed big-pharma capitalism, arms trading, and Brexit.

We've discussed the lack of women before, especially in relation to the continuation written by JlC's son, Karla's Choice - I was uncomfortable with the retrospective insertion of women along with a nod to Black, Jewish, gay etc. characters but I know not everyone found that problematic.

Phrod, will you be joining us in our JlC buddy read? We're starting in August with Call for the Dead.

"Yes, I'd agree that though many - not all - of his books have some kind of espionage setting, his real themes are deeper. He often depicts bleak worlds filled with lonely, wounded, betrayed sometimes mean, greedy and egotistical characters."

Much appreciated is your insight into these aspects.
I do need to correct something in my post.
Espionage is critical to the JLC network of problems. Had his lead characters been business men or virtually any civilian activity, the stakes would have been lowered.
Part of what makes his drama , dramatic is that lives are on the line. People are expected to die for their country. Death of a Salesman aside, non-MI5/6 and etc, not so much.

I wonder if anyone was aware of Big Pharma as a negative actor until The Constant Gardener, but other than the term, I have no sense that any movement came of it/with it <?>

The Mission Songshould have lit other fires, but it mostly came and went.

I do plan to follow these reads, most likely I will not be re-reading these books, many I have read more than twice and tapes/later CD, and most of the movies.

The Little Drummer Girl is exceptional in being mostly about a female character, and one I have 'flirted with' but to date not read.

The Little Drummer Girl is immensely complex and unlike JlC's usual work in some ways - but it's dealing with the impossible quagmire of Palestine so we couldn't expect anything else.

It's one I'd definitely like to reread at some point. The interesting point about the female protagonist is that the book requires her to be an ingenue and politically unsophisticated.

Yes, as you both point out JLC is about so much more than just spying and espionage though it's easy to understand how that tag has stuck given the success of the Smiley books and adaptations.

He frequently explores complex moral ambiguities and the human cost of work, with a particular focus on loyalty, betrayal, and the fallibility of both Western democracy and intelligence services.

When he does write about spying it's often the internal struggles of the spies, the mundane reality of espionage, and the psychological toll it takes on individuals that is the focus, as much as the narrative.

He also often delves deep into the dark side of international corruption and crime

It's such a shame he is seen as a genre writer given the breadth of his work, his storytelling chops, and his literary gifts.

Nigeyb wrote: "Yes, as you both point out JLC is about so much more than just spying and espionage though it's easy to understand how that tag has stuck given the success of the Smiley books and adaptations.

He ..."
To You and Roman both
Just pretend this is a
Like button

Good posts about the complexities of JlC's writings.

I think one of the reasons the world of espionage was his entry into writing is it gave him an opportunity to explore a world beyond law and morality, particularly the British notions of "fair play" and the loyalties to "our kinds of chaps", to see what limitations and codes still apply, if any. By extension, these same issues apply to international business.

I also love the way he explodes the false glamour of spy craft, international conflict and wealth.

It will be great to explore the evolution of his writings together!

Nigeyb wrote: "He frequently explores complex moral ambiguities"

Nicely put, Nigeyb. And this is key, I think, to what binds his books, that sense of people caught between bad and worse options. He's the master of realpolitik. Spot on, too, about corruption, wherever he finds it.

It's amazing, considering the dark worlds and souls he depicts, that JlC never himself descends into cynicism and holds on to some kind of faith in humanity. He is himself such a humane writer - one of the qualities I love in him.

On women in his books, it will be interesting to trace the representation of Anne and her role in the Smiley books.

As Nigeyb says, these are not genre books.

I see there is a new biography of Muriel Spark that received a very favourable review in this weekend's Financial Times.

Electric Spark: The Enigma of Muriel Spark by Frances Wilson

On my TBR list, Ben. Along with Mrs Dalloway: Biography of a novel and Living with Jane Austen. Two more books about books or authors.

For those in the U.S. that are interested in the John Le Carré buddy read of his Smiley series, Audible is now running their member's yearly sale on everything with most of the audiobooks discounted to lass than $4.

Sam wrote: "For those in the U.S. that are interested in the John Le Carré buddy read of his Smiley series, Audible is now running their member's yearly sale on everything with most of the aud..."

I'll just add that for US readers whose libraries subscribe to Hoopla, the new Simon Vance audio versions (which are mostly not listed on GR) are all available there. For those who don't want to give more power to Bezos.

Sam and I are discussing a possible buddy read of The Berlin Novels by Christopher Isherwood. Who else would be interested? We're thinking of reading Mr Norris Changes Trains and Goodbye to Berlin (both contained within The Berlin Novels) in consecutive months.

Post here if you're interested and when would be a good time later this year.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Sam and I are discussing a possible buddy read of The Berlin Novels by Christopher Isherwood. Who else would be interested? We're thinking of reading [book:Mr Norris C..."

I would be interested, but not before October at the earliest.

Great Sonia - we're thinking towards the end of the year so that's fine.

I’d be interested if it were late in the year. Preferably November, but I might be able to make the latter part of October