The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the weeks of July 28th - August 3rd, we are reading BOOK TWO - Orders of Release and PART ONE - The Situation - The Day of the Scorpion - Book Two of the Raj Quartet.

The seventh week's reading assignment is:

WEEK SEVEN- July 28th - August 3rd ~ BOOK TWO - Orders of Release and PART ONE ~ The Situation (233-265)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on June 16th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on July 28th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Jill will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Bentley.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Paul Scott

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how to cite books:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...


Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

by Paul Scott

We do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

NOTE

For those of you who are reading this book on e-books or whose edition has different numbering than that used by the moderator, the last page of this week's assignment ends with the sentence, "To Colin I was invisible".

Chapter Summary and Overview

It is now 1944 and we join Lady Manners in a car with Captain Rowan, an aide from Government House. She asks him to see the photograph that was given to him by the Governor which is of an Indian man who looks little like her memories of the individual. We discover she is going to visit the prison at Kandipat and that their visit will be very discreet. The blinds on the car windows are lowered and Lady Manners covers her face with her veil.

She is taken to a small room with a telephone containing a microphone and a louvered window which looks into another room. Captain Rowan will be in that room with a clerk, a representative from the Home and Law Department, and the prisoner. The latter two will be unaware of her presence. The prisoner enters the room and of course, it is Hari Kumar, looking rather haggard. He is told he will be examined by Captain Rowan and notes will be taken by the clerk, and he agrees. Rowan reviews Hari's arrest under the Defence of India rules and ask him about the other five men also arrested at that time and the list of names included Pandit Baba. Hari states that the authorities believed that Pandit Baba had a lot of influence over educated young Indian men but that he was not one of his followers.

Hari is asked about his years in England and says that his father raised him in the English manner which he felt would make him attractive to the British for a position in the Indian administration. But he found that once he came to India that he was just another brown skinned Indian to the British. He goes to work for one of the newspapers.

Hari talks about his original arrest and release and meeting Daphne who was very friendly. He was surprised to be treated with respect by a white woman.

While covering a cricket match, Hari sees his old and best friend from England, Colin. Colin looks at him and seems not to recognize him and Hari suddenly realizes that he is indeed invisible to the English, and that Colin could not, as a British officer, have an Indian friend.

Question

What do you think is the purpose of Lady Manners' visit to Hari in prison and why must it be so secretive and discreet?

I've been trying to figure that out. The title of Book Two, Orders of Release, suggests that there is some move afoot to get Hari out of prison. Is Lady Manners behind it? She certainly is treated with a great deal of deference and one has to assume she wields a good deal of authority in a quiet, behind-the-scenes sort of way.

She's read Daphne's diary, so she knows Daphne believed Hari to be completely innocent, but maybe she has some doubts and wants to get a sense of the man. She may also want to see if there is a resemblance to Parvati. Is she thinking of somehow letting him know that Parvati exists and that he might be the father?

All the spy-craft precautions seem distinctly odd. I suppose she has taken so much flack about sheltering Daphne and keeping the child that she doesn't want to cause more comment, especially in a politically sensitive case....?

The only thing I'm sure of is that it's really compelling reading and I forgot the cutoff page and just kept going. Too bad Scott didn't try his hand at writing some thriller/spy stories. He really knows how to build the drama and tension!

I don't get the puzzlement.

"...suggests that there is some move afoot to get Hari out of prison. Is Lady Manners behind it?"

Despite Rowan's protests to the contrary, it seems pretty obvious from the first half of the interrogation that indeed Hari might walk as a result of where the questioning is leading.

It's immediately apparent that there is no legal grounds for the charges of treason.

And, yeah, Lady M is behind it. She rides to the interrogation with the government's chief prosecutor, is provided the government file on Hari, and it is obvious the Raj is hosting her visit.

This seltion is most interesting for a variety of reasons.

Instead of focusing on the characters, for the moment look at the action. On the one hand, Scott is expanding on events of the past from the first volume. But he’s doing a whole lot more than echoing narrative necessary to make heads and tails of the second volume.

He’s merged the past events by making them part of The Day of the Scorpion’s current time. Hari’s story is being reconsidered, officially. And he emerges as a more aware character. He’s barely recognizable from the waif tossed on the sea of events in the first volume.

It is Lady Manners’ initial meeting with Hari. She has wondered about him in the past, so I think it’s safe to presume she wants to know more about Daphne’s lover, Parvati’s father, given LM’s post mortem involvement as the daughter’s guardian. And, who knows, her influence as the former provincial governor’s widow may come into play.

Hari’s narrative under questioning serves a couple of purposes, I think, not the least of which is that it allows Scott to more definitively describe this character and his transformation to an invisible man during his reintroduction into Indian society from England and the now more worldly prisoner incarcerated on trumped up political charges.

The reference to his invisibility, whether intentional or not, brings to mind Ralph Ellison’s Invisible Man, published 21 years before Day of the Scorpion, and the whole issue of race making a person, or people invisible.

Hari is not only figuratively invisible to the English, he is literally invisible to his formerly close friend from England days, Colin (one letter short of colon?).

Ironically, Hari sees his arrest by Merrick as the door opening into mixed society at Lady Chaterjee’s, where at least part of his motivation in attending is to gain access to channels leading to Lady Manners.

While Lady C’s is a place for the English and Indians to congregate, there are limits and Daphne’s friendliness toward Hari is seen as crossing the line.

Even Lady Manners and Rowan tense as Hari openly recounts the embarrassment by the liberally minded set caused by Daphne’s openness to the Indian.

A couple of other points on the section: It now seems that Hari’s father immersed his son in things English for very pragmatic reasons: to give his son an advantage in the competition for administration jobs within the Raj…speaking of irony.

Also, Hari’s relationship with Merrick starts to become clearer. Hari doesn’t see him as the District Superintendent. “To me he was always Merrick,” Hari says. In other words, uniforms and titles aside, it was always personal with Merrick.

But the reason for that, Hari says in the novel’s current time, only becomes clearer after the narrative reveals recounting of Merrick interrogations yet to be revealed.

Finally, keep Hari’s language issues tucked away in the back of the mind. You’ll be interested in how they play out in the end.

And, yeah, what Hana said. It's too bad the passage gets cut in half, because as interesting as the first half is, and the tension that builds, next week's continuance is explosive.

Finally, keep Hari’s language issues tucked away in the back of the mind. You’ll be interested in how they play out in the end.

The language issues were what stood out for me in this section: First, Hari saying he wanted to speak English, then answering everything with "han"; the incredulity of Gopal that Hari's father had not taught him his "native tongue"; the slightly less than standard English spoken by Gopal, such as "What were those advantages, was he saying?" and "I am not fully understanding that reply" (such a subtle thing here).

I agree it was a very tough point at which to stop reading!

My thoughts about Lady M's visit are pretty much in line with yours, Martin. No doubt she is interested in seeing the man whose child she is raising and who brought scandal to Daphne. But I feel that she still has influence with the government because of her late husband's position and will be or already is working to have him released. If she is not involved in attempting to have him set free, then who is? Has the government had a change of heart? He is not an important person to the British in the overall scheme of thing, so why the interest in him at this point?

Right. Widow of former gov has pull. And, yeah, who else would be interested on H's behalf w/that kind of pull. Secrecy called for to avoid public unrest.

Sorry about the end page of this week's read since it really stopped right in the middle of the action......but our guidelines require so many pages per week.

I really like this chapter because we are now hearing from Hari's lips what happened before and after his arrest. I feel that what he is telling us has much more veracity than what Merrick has to say about the incident.

I agree, Jill. This section is awesome - in fact, I think I'll read it again.

Let's tie up some incidents that have occurred that involve Merrick. First the stone throwing (which was probably intended against him); then Hari's aunt prostrating herself at his feet in the train station to beg for a favor; his unexpected frankness in his conversation with Sarah; and now the questioning of Hari as to his experiences during the arrest where he was treated badly by Merrick.
What is Scott trying to tell us by putting the spotlight on Merrick in the last two chapters?

Oh, the evidence portfolio on Merrick is much fatter than that. I don't think the evidence in the first volume should be excluded. Very damning stuff.

I was just thinking of this book and, granted, it is adding baggage to what we learned about Merrick in the first volume. It just appears that Scott is building up speed regarding Merrick.

What is Scott trying to tell us by putting the spotlight on Merrick in the last two chapters?

I think he's showing Merrick's attempts to ingratiate himself with the Laytons (and perhaps specifically with Sarah) in order to climb the social ladder. In this book, we find that he's a captain in the army - no longer a district policeman. He's the quintessential middle class Englishman who sees India as a place where he can achieve higher social status and greater power. But we also know that he is a greatly flawed and, possibly, totally evil character. His apparent candidness with Sarah is an attempt to put himself on her social level. I guess we are about to find out more about his treatment of Hari in the jail.

Jill, I think your suggestion that we draft an indictment of Merrick is a smashing good idea. Top notch.

But I think we need to start with what we know about Merrick from The Jewel in the Crown. I mean, he didn't just plop out of the heavens into The Day of the Scorpion like Lucifer in Pandemonium.

We meet him early on as he intrudes on "the sanctuary," Sister Ludmilia's hospice for the indigent. Merrick finds it a "curious arrangement," in his words. Sister L thinks he regards such preparations for dying as a "waste."

Where Sister L is helping others to prepare for the greatest transition in life (across the threshold of death), Merrick has this bit of, ah, wisdom to offer: "In life, rupees are a great consideration."

(From a certain perspective, at this point, Merrick might seem a leedle bit crazy. How many rupees is he planning to take with him?)

Then comes the forced confrontation by M with Hari.

Sister L tries to accommodate a diplomatic solution by inviting Merrick, Kumar, and M's deputy to her office to smooth things over. "But Merrick, no, he was not going to take the smooth way out. He had already chosen the twisted, tragic way. He said, 'We seem to have got beyond the stage when a talk in your office would have been a satisfactory preliminary. I am taking him into custody.'"

This is the seed of Merrick's karma (cause & effect) throughout the Quartet, literally and figuratively.

Merrick is taking Hari into custody without grounds. The response to Hari's query on charges is: we'll think of something at the station; not unlike later when charges must be conjured after Merrick frames Hari for Daphne's rape.

Arrest, then think of a charge.

At this point, we see Merrick as a class-conscious bad cop.

But, later we see Merrick's handwriting in the club's registry. It's the handwriting of a child. Is this an early indication of a pathology?

Merrick makes a play for Daphne that is awkward, at best, given his inability to relate to her as a young woman. He advises D to steer clear of Hari, and develops a jealousy that clouds his vision and ability to think clearly.

His ill-advised thinking is based largely on class, but there's something pathological about it in its degree and how it obscures his thinking and leads to his malicious actions. Is this the first insight into the mind that is over active within a narrow range?

Ultimately, in The Jewel in the Crown, Merrick's pathological karma leads him to frame Hari for Daphne's rape. His actions cross over from being the bad cop arresting a boy for what amounts to disorderly conduct to the felonious criminal: tampering with evidence to falsely implicate someone he dislikes based on race/class considerations.

Oh, ladies and gentlemen, do not get me wrong. Merrick maintains appearances, if not for the sake of the natives, for the benefit of the club set.

He is highly sought after by the young ladies, if only because there is a shortage of young men of an appropriate social class. The Raj, after all, is based on the philosophy that a small group of armed men, with even a smaller administration, can govern the subcontinent.

And with great efficiency, Merrick is able to move and operate within the system. We see that as he segues into the second volume during the wedding scene.

It appears that M has been promoted to captain, although it's highly questionable whether it was based on merit. It seems as if his conduct in the prosecution of the Manners rape/sedition case has rebounded upon him. It seems he has been kicked up a level to get him out of the way.

But, between Indians who see and target him as a culprit, and the reopened inquest, we're not yet done with Merrick, who once again shines as a functionary while standing in for a ceremony without a best man at Susan's wedding.

But readers of the jury, be mindful that we have witnessed Merrick's class-conscious racism in his execution of his duties in prosecuting the Manners rape as well as in his unguarded confession to Sarah, as if we needed to be reminded.

It's true we have seen other officials of the Raj expressing racist philosophies, and even taking action on those misguided thoughts, but none have executed their thinking in the malicious and personal manner as Merrick has against Hari Kumar.

But withhold judgment if you do not accept the evidence to this point, because you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Be mindful that Merrick's karmic course was set during his first meeting with Hari and M's course through the Quartet reflects those coordinates. And, what follows is the accelerating completion of the cause and effect chain Merrick set in motion when he declined to step into Sister Lumila's office and settle things amicably.

Who else cried when Hari cried for Daphne?

I seem to remember Daphne shed a few tears.

Martin's summation of Merrick's "baggage" up to this point in the story is right on the mark. We have seen the good/bad guy sides of his personality, sometimes rational, other times almost irrational. During Lady Manners' visit to the prison, we may find out as much about Merrick as we do about Hari, at least in the context of the arrest.

Gopal (from the Home and Law Department) questions Hari closely about his upbringing in England. Based on some of his questions about Hari's father, it appears that Gopal feels that Hari's father had some subversive reason for raising Hari as an Englishman, rather than an Indian........possibly to work against the English in India since Hari had the advantage of thinking and acting English. In this way, Gopal can make Hari's arrest under the Defense of the Realm law valid if indeed this is his reason for his interrogation. Is this interrogation for the purpose of keeping Hari a prisoner or letting him go free. Are Rowan and Gopal at cross purposes in their questioning?

My understanding is that, since there never was a rape charge levied against Hari and his co-defendants, they are being held for suspected subversive activities. Under the Defense of the Realm Law, they may be held without a hearing on these suspected charges and so their innocence or guilt has never really been determined. Gopal's questioning reflects his belief that somehow Hari was involved in that type of activity due to his associations and that is the basis for his line of questioning. It seems to be going nowhere, though. My guess is that the hearing is being held at the behest of LM to see if there's any reason to keep Hari detained. It's just an impression, but I think so far Rowan seems a little more sympathetic of the two interrogators.

Good observation on the grounds on which Hari is held. And, yes, it's obvious, at least to the half blind for reasons cited upthread, that LadyM is pulling the strings. Rowan is toeing the Raj line, which is that nothing in the interrogation can reverse Hari's sentence, but even the first time through it seemed to me Rowan is holding a losing hand on that score.

Just to add to Donna's point that Merrick is a quintessential sort of Eglishman, I think that's on the mark. But to add to that, I think that in the Raj he has gained not only a position that he would never achieved, but that he's in over his head, professionally and personally.

If he were an American, he would be a con man, a grifter, with a mean streak growing out of the disconnect between his various parts.

I think the most sympathetic take on Merrick to this point is that he's caught in a con game to keep up the appearance he strives to create while the underlying reality belies the illusion.

Donna wrote: "My understanding is that, since there never was a rape charge levied against Hari and his co-defendants, they are being held for suspected subversive activities. Under the Defense of the Realm Law..."

Correct, Donna......no rape charges, just the Defence of the Realm suspicions. I think Gopal is trying to validate those charges while Rowan, if strings are being pulled by Lady Manners' connections which they obviously are, is put in an unusual position. It is my guess that Gopal knows nothing of the influences which brought on this interrogation......or did I miss that somewhere?

Rowan is toeing the Raj line, which is that nothing in the interrogation can reverse Hari's sentence, but even the first time through it seemed to me Rowan is holding a losing hand on that score.

That felt like a subterfuge to me.

In medicine, one frequently studies the pathological to understand the healthy. I got a feel for something similar reading the interrogation passage.

It seems to me that there is a sense of a base, street reality in any prison setting, as if an essence of an actuality that authority seeks to blend in or white wash in the larger social reality is distilled.

That was something I felt reading this interrogation passage. The scenes in the Quartet that happen behind the screen of incarceration all have the same feel to me. Those settings and the action within seem to reveal much, whether it's about meta types of concerns such as language in the current selection, or even characters such as Merrick.

I suppose part of it is that authority figures are freer to operate in a setting of their own creation.

But those who are incarcerated also seem freer to act. Hari is more open and explanatory during the interrogation than at any other time. His thinking seems clearer.

This is a very different Hari from the one we met in the first book. He was sullen and uncooperative previously and refused to answer most questions put to him by the authorities. Obviously prison changes any man but in his case, he seems more mature and sure of himself, rather than bitter and silent. I'm sure he thinks (or at least hopes) that his freedom may depend on his answers even though Rowan tells him that it is not the case.

Yes, Jill, he is greatly changed, definitely more politicized, and I suspect we're about to learn more about the situation.

The week's section ends at the break on an exchange between Rowan and Gopal about the course of the interrogation.

It's Rowan who wants to avoid exploring Merrick's role in the prosecution of the case, but simply by bringing it up he ensures that when the break is over they will delve into Merrick's handling of the case.

Jill wrote: "He was sullen and uncooperative previously and refused to answer most questions put to him by the authorities."

In the first book, I thought he was doing that to punish himself for Daphne's suffering. Now I understand it to be the only form of defiance left to him.

And I felt it was because Daphne made him promise to remain silent.

That was part of it, but she didn't want him to remain silent to the perverse point of harming himself.

Yes, he did take it a bit far for that. Probably a mix of all these things. He was in a dark place mentally.

Hana wrote: "I've been trying to figure that out. The title of Book Two, Orders of Release, suggests that there is some move afoot to get Hari out of prison. Is Lady Manners behind it? She certainly is treated ..."

I am too very happily surprised, by Scott's writing. I am loving this book.

Donna wrote: "Yes, he did take it a bit far for that. Probably a mix of all these things. He was in a dark place mentally."

I don't think that he realized that he was taking things too far and in the process hurting himself in the eyes of the authorities. I surmise that he was "in a dark place mentally" for several reasons but most importantly, he had discovered that he was just another Indian. He was better educated than most of the people in authority and raised to relate to the English on a level playing field. I think the shock that he was a "nobody" really threw him a curve. It is possible that prison has done him more good than harm and he has now come to terms with himself.

I think prison is providing the experience of coming to terms with him self, especially that he is an Indian.

Kressel wrote: "Who else cried when Hari cried for Daphne?"

I definitely did. And I was very moved by his dignity and self-containment, not just at that moment, but throughout the interrogation. I agree, prison has changed him; but it doesn't do positive things for everyone. Hari had to have a kind of greatness within himself to mature and grow, rather than sinking into bitterness.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was great not because he survived the Gulag, but because he survived and was able to say: “Bless you prison, bless you for being in my life. For there, lying upon the rotting prison straw, I came to realize that the object of life is not prosperity as we are made to believe, but the maturity of the human soul.”

by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Very appropriate quote, Hana. Hari has become a much more mature and wiser man due to his prison experience even though that is a terrible way to come to grips with reality.

Lexi has such a way with words.

A brilliant man and writer.

Let's not go overboard:

"Ford administration staffers Richard Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld advocated on Solzhenitsyn's behalf for him to speak directly to then-President Gerald Ford about the Soviet threat, prior to and alongside the tougher foreign policy pursued by US President Ronald Reagan. At the same time, liberals and secularists became increasingly critical of what they perceived as his reactionary preference for Russian nationalism and the Russian Orthodox religion."

This is from Wikipedia. Lexi, like some great artists, had great insights into some things, other phenomena? Not so much.

Good old Wiki - where would be without it?

Controversial, yes. But I was enthralled by the Gulag when I read it many years ago and I'm about to read August 1914 in honor of the centennial and to experience more of the man's mind and literary acumen.

"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956

& by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Donna wrote: "Good old Wiki - where would be without it?

Controversial, yes. But I was enthralled by the Gulag when I read it many years ago and I'm about to read August 1914 in honor of the centennial and to..."

So which man is Merrick.......truly evil or is he a man whose heart is divided between good and evil? Or does he even know the difference? What he considers as common practice, we look upon as unacceptable (his treatment of Hari for example). But it is not evil to him, just part of his jealousy and self-image.

I'd say sadism is evil.

And I would agree, Kressel. Sadism is so fulfilling to the purveyor of it, that is seems like normal behavior to them. Merrick is a strange case but generally he seems very disturbed.