Historical Romance Book Club discussion

Oh boy. I am very very picky about my angst. You defiantly need some to the make the story interesting. But I really struggle with angst that derives from the characters being just being stupid. Like one 15 minute conversation as mature @&$ adults could solve all of it and they could be happy. It just gets me so upset when characters do this. Just thinking about gets me riled up.

Like I just finished Marrying Winterborne, and the I was quite happy with the drama/angst level. And the ending climax (view spoiler)[was basically her telling her big secret and him saying, "Okay well I love you so that's fine. You're still you. All settled? Good? Let's go home then." (hide spoiler)].

I think my comfort level is more drama-ish than angsty.

Lorien wrote: "Oh boy. I am very very picky about my angst. You defiantly need some to the make the story interesting. But I really struggle with angst that derives from the characters being just being stupid. Li..."

Well said. This reflects my views on the topic. Loved Marrying Winterbourne and the ending was perfect.

Ally wrote: "Some of us (I'm including myself here!) love a good angsty historical romance while others are like "oh he!! no".

Ansty books mean that the MCs really have to work for their HEA - like we are off..."

Ok, so I don't like angst that seems thrown in to move plot or for added drama. Especially when there's only three or four more chapters and a new random twist comes up. But, many of my favorites are very angsty, so it's a difficult question to answer.

Most of the angst I enjoy are the moments in the book that just tug at my heart. So my comment might be a little spoilerish?

The heroine's unrequited love gets requited but not because she took matters into her own hands to make the hero fall in love with her though
Ravishing the Heiress by Sherry Thomas.

The H/h fall in love but one (or both) of them is betrothed to another person, therefore, they can't get married. They say their teary good-byes and somehow they get their HEA
More Than a Duke by Christi Caldwell
A Kiss at Midnight by Eloisa James
Like No Other Love by Julie Anne Long

A near-death experience...
Seduction of a Highland Lass by Maya Banks (I cried reading that part)
When Strangers Marry by Lisa Kleypas

Other books that I feel has angst but couldn't quite categorize.
Kingdom of Dreams
Once and Always
Almost Heaven, all by Judith McNaught.
Heartless and Silent Melody (I cried) by Mary Balogh.

Missy, Heartless is one of my fav HRs. I always cry when I reread it. So, I guess I do like some angst LOL. But what I don't like is when there is a really horrible character who gets too much "page space" in the book. A horrible nasty baddie who we just see too much of. It's OK when they're there in the background (like the creepster in Heartless), but I don't like reading too much about them.

For e.g. I'm currently reading My Last Duchess , and whilst I do like it, I really HATE Cora's manipulative, bullying mother, and I just don't want to read another word about her! It's kinda putting me off the whole book. Does anyone else experience something similar? Or do you love to hate your baddies?

Further thoughts: I do like a lovely, low-angst HR. One of my fav HR reads this year fits right in that category: Devil in Spring Just a beautiful romance. (Sequel to Marrying Winterborne BTW).

Jan130 wrote: "I really HATE Cora's manipulative, bullying mother, and I just don't want to read another word about her! It's kinda putting me off the whole book. Does anyone else experience something similar? Or do you love to hate your baddies?"

Oooh...this sounds like another possible discussion post!

Joanna wrote: "Ally wrote: "Some of us (I'm including myself here!) love a good angsty historical romance while others are like "oh he!! no".

Ansty books mean that the MCs really have to work for their HEA - li..."

I agree. I just don't want something thrown in to move the plot along and doesn't make sense half way through the book and trying to bring it all together in the end.

A by A Kiss at Midnightwas an angst book I've read.

Ally wrote: "Missy wrote: "Heartless (Georgian, #1) by Mary Balogh Heartless and Silent Melody (Georgian, #2) by Mary Balogh Silent Melody (I cried) by Mary Balogh. "

You make me want to read these in a bad wa..."

Heartless is a gorgeous Georgian about Luke, a glamorous but cold, 'heartless' man who has just returned to England after 10 years in Paris. He was rejected by his family (no spoilers!) and had to make his own way in life. But now he has inherited the Dukedom, and he has come home.

Anna is a wonderful, loving young woman who has a mysterious secret that has blighted her life.

Luke and Anna are attracted, and they marry fairly early in the book. They gradually fall deeply in love with each other. But both have baggage they must deal with. As Luke falls in love, and also finds out what really happened all those years ago, the ice around his heart begins to melt. He realises that his beautiful Anna has a gift for making those around her happy, and she brings sunshine into his life. There are some truly beautiful moments in this book.... happy sigh.

Anna's past resurfaces, and with Luke's help she is able to deal with the super creepy stalker who has been trying to ruin her life for years.

Silent Melody is the love story of Anna's younger sister Emily with Luke's younger brother Ash. Emily is a strange, wild, artistic young woman whose life has been shaped by the challenge of her deafness. Ash is a deep and caring man who understands Emily's nature as few others do, and their love story is a beautiful one. However there are a few convoluted plot twists in this book that makes it a less successful book for me than Heartless. But it was still lovely to see Emily and Ashley together, and to revisit with Luke and Anna. Balogh writes about Emily and her deafness with great sensitivity and understanding.

Sorry about such a long post...... both books are angsty but satisfying, particularly (for me) the first one.

There is one I can think of right now, Madeline Hunter, the Arrangement.

The theme is common enough, an arranged marriage, but in this book, as in so many, there is so much angst, because the heroine can't be practical.

The heroine was an aristocrat whose family fell on hard times once her father died and they lost their lands. She became a ward of the king and a pawn in more ways than one.

Another aristocrat saw her as prey because she was attractive but with no family influence to protect her from being taken advantage of, but she was too blind and "in love" to see it.

The king saw her as a pawn to wield influence, giving her in marriage to a commoner, an upper middle class merchant.

Of course, she saw it as the worst sort of thing to have happened to her. It wasn't as though the man wasn't wealthy and attractive enough. But she was so blinded by her loyalty to the aristocrat who only wanted to take advantage of her, seduce, and abandon her.

She came around eventually, but it was annoying to read.

Does anyone know of any arranged marriage books where the heroine is far more willing to be practical, knowing that neither she nor the hero are "in love," but she is willing to be realistic and give things a chance?

Perhaps I know of some, but I just can't recall them now.


By Arrangement

I love angsty books. I felt most of the books by Kathleen E Woodiwiss and Lisa Kleypas are angsty (in varying levels). My favourites, to name a few, are The Reluctant Suitor, Come Love a Stranger, Again the Magic, Marrying Winterborne and Julia Quinn's The Duke and I.

If I recall, Minx had the almost deliberate misunderstandings and angst that drives me nuts. Specially, since the MC's actually could talk about things through the first half of the book. Then suddenly they couldn't and they (specially the hero) were just jerks to each other for several chapters. I honestly can't even remember how they made up.
And You May Kiss the Bride did too, where the hero made a move on the heroine, got caught and then seem to act like she seduced him on purpose to get his money and title for most of the book.
It makes me what to yell "Use your words" at them.

Barbara, By Arrangement sounds like my type of angst! I've shelved it and other books from that series after reading your comment. Thanks! Looking forward to reading By Arrangement now.

Lorien, I started reading Minx a year or two ago but then stopped after reading a review about the misunderstandings between the H/h.

THE SILENT MELODY by Mary Balogh is the second book in this series of HEARTLESS.

I am finding I don't enjoy Mary Baoghs book as much as I used too. They just seem a little more dark or heavy to me? Or predictable... Haven't given her a chance in a while. Maybe i should try again.

Lorien wrote: "I am finding I don't enjoy Mary Baoghs book as much as I used too. They just seem a little more dark or heavy to me? Or predictable... Haven't given her a chance in a while. Maybe i should try again."

Some of her books are definitely better than others. Some of the older ones are best IMO, such as Heartless
Irresistible OMG Nathaniel is one of my fav book husbands LOL.
Slightly Dangerous

Having said that, I have found some others of her older ones pretty lame. Everyone has their favs. You can only try, and see what works best for you. But don't give up. When she's on her game, MB is one of the best!

Jan130 wrote: "Lorien wrote: "I am finding I don't enjoy Mary Baoghs book as much as I used too. They just seem a little more dark or heavy to me? Or predictable... Haven't given her a chance in a while. Maybe i ..."

I really enjoyed A Matter of Class, it really surprised me. So I know I like some of her books.

I think I have a huge pile of Mary in the attack, (ran out of room) and I think I have Slightly Dangerous in it. So maybe I'll give it a try in the next few months.

Thanks Lorien. I'm not familiar with A Matter Of Class, but I might try to track it down. It doesn't seem to be available on amazon australia, but I might be able to get a PB copy somewhere.

I'm not sure if I agree with the categorization of some of the books listed above as "angst", but that's probably because my definition of an angsty book is way less scientific than the ones given here.

If it makes me cry, it's angsty. :D If it makes me laugh after it makes me cry or vice versa, I just like it more so that doesn't disqualify it from being angst.

Pretty much everything written by Courtney Milan. Special mention given to

but really, everything she writes qualifies.

Other "ow my heart" books. The list is massively incomplete because I have a LOT of books to re-read and make notes about. I also can't remember for sure if some books I liked because they made me laugh or if they made me cry or both so I've left most of them off the lists.

Sha wrote: "If it makes me cry, it's angsty ..."
You summed up angsty in a few words and I like your definition a lot more than the scientific version. My definition is a bit vague. If it makes me deeply and emotionally attached to the story and MCs, it is angsty.

Pretty much everything written by Courtney Milan.
Good to know. I have planned to read her Brothers Sinister series for next year's series challenge.

So me being me, I went and looked angst up.

I think urban dictionary has the best definition for book use anyway.

Angst, often confused with anxiety, is a transcendent emotion in that it combines the unbearable anguish of life with the hopes of overcoming this seemingly impossible situation. Without the important element of hope, then the emotion is anxiety, not angst. Angst denotes the constant struggle one has with the burdens of life that weighs on the dispossessed and not knowing when the salvation will appear.

Sha wrote: "I'm not sure if I agree with the categorization of some of the books listed above as "angst", but that's probably because my definition of an angsty book is way less scientific than the ones given ..."

I feel the same about everything on your "Ow" list-- Three of my favs on that list.

Jan130 wrote: "Ally wrote: "Missy wrote: "Heartless (Georgian, #1) by Mary Balogh Heartless and Silent Melody (Georgian, #2) by Mary Balogh Silent Melody (I cried) by Mary Balogh. "

You make me want to read thes..."

I loved both of these books, but I did want to shake the h in Heartless. Often.

Ally wrote: "Lorien wrote: "So me being me, I went and looked angst up.

Without the important element of hope, then the emotion is anxiety, not angst.."

I completely agree here - hope is what makes angst work..."

I think I need some believable logic behind the angst to feel any hope. When the characters are just being too stupid for their own good or unbelievable - the resolutions and HEA feel shallow and/or empty.

I can only remember one romance story that has ever even made me get a little teary eyed. Other books have made me cry, but it's rare. Kind of makes me feel like I've missed out on something.

Lorien wrote: "So me being me, I went and looked angst up.

I think urban dictionary has the best definition for book use anyway.

Angst, often confused with anxiety, is a transcendent emotion in that it combines..."

This definition makes sense to me. Angst to me includes anguish, so more specific than just emotional. I like a touching emotional read, but excessive anguish can be a difficult sell for me.

I need a secret recipe for angst to be followed. Not too much, not too little, and in the right mood ;)

Brandy wrote: "I need a secret recipe for angst to be followed. Not too much, not too little, and in the right mood ;)"

Hahaha. Yes.

Interesting discussion and based on the definition above, I’ve been misclassifying “angsty” books. For me, angst is when the characters allow internal or external issues to get in the way of their HEA and it usually stems from silly and annoying things like misunderstandings or overhearing partial conversations or listening to the villain even knowing that person is a villian. These books are usually not favorites for me.

I don’t categorize books that make me emotional as “angst” but as “heart-wrenching” and I usually love these ones. If a books makes me cry, its a 5 star!

Lauren wrote: "Interesting discussion and based on the definition above, I’ve been misclassifying “angsty” books. For me, angst is when the characters allow internal or external issues to get in the way of their ..."

I gree with the "make me cry" and really tug at my heart...those are my 5-Stars too!

Debby "Piene Raven" wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Interesting discussion and based on the definition above, I’ve been misclassifying “angsty” books. For me, angst is when the characters allow internal or external issues to get in th..."

True. I just can't take too many of those in a row.

Definition Angst: a feeling of deep anxiety or dread, typically an unfocused one about the human condition or the state of the world in general. (dictionary)

I'm not sure what I consider angst in a book, except that it generally falls under some kind of emotional turmoil. I think I need angst in my romances. The ones that are too sweet lose me after a few chapters.

Sort of like semi-sweet chocolate makes the best cookies.

I'm curious about a discussion on the misunderstanding about misunderstandings. After all, every argument I think I've ever won (because I'm a winner LOL) with my husband started and maybe even ended with a misunderstanding. It's where the worst gossip comes from, rumors, and hurt feelings, all of which people at some point in their lives have taken to the nth degree. I'm not sure I've read a romance without some kind of misunderstanding. Or even most story narrated fiction.

I do, however, understand what you're saying about them. It should make sense and not be forced. I think the forced part comes in when a book is too short for the storyline. (I think that happens a lot these days)

Just my 1 cent because this probably isn't worth 2 cents. LOL

Mariana wrote: "True. I just can't take too many of those in a row. "

Me either! My heart just can't take it. I need something light and fluffy after one of the tearjerkers, lol!

Lauren wrote: "It should make sense and not be forced. I think the forced part comes in when a book is too short for the storyline. (I think that happens a lot these days)"

That's a very good point.

Yes, misunderstandings are part of the human experience, but it is the contrived ones that annoy me. The ones that could easily be resolved with a conversation, or even an argument, are the ones that I find irritating.

Lauren wrote: "Lauren wrote: "It should make sense and not be forced. I think the forced part comes in when a book is too short for the storyline. (I think that happens a lot these days)"

That's a very good poin..."

Right. The easy ones get to me also. Misunderstandings are fine if the argument happens in a timely manner. I do love a good argument and a good grovel. I just read the best blog post on groveling. https://www.jenreadsromance.com/blog/... It was a hoot!

Shannon,

Thanks for that link to the post about “groveling.”

I think the author meant to be humorous, but that post was serious business for me.

The amendment to rule 77 really spoke to me on why I love avgood anti-hero. I want to see a transformation. However, I get why a lot of readers can’t forgive the (anti) hero who has done wrong even if the heroine does.

His grovel and change need to make sense. No laziness on the part of the author! The author has to be equal to the task of making it work!

Shannon wrote: " I do love a good argument and a good grovel.."

Me too! It's the bickering and the "artistry of the good grovel" that make it fun!

Lauren wrote: "The amendment to rule 77 really spoke to me on why I love avgood anti-hero. I want to see a transformation"

I mush prefer a well-written anti-hero to a more tradition hero. The former have a lot more room for growth and redemption, the latter are much less likely to grovel.

It is the whole Superman vs. Batman debate and I'm completely in the bat's corner, lol!

Lauren wrote: "...is the whole Superman vs. Batman debate and I'm completely in the bat's corner, lol"

I love this Superman and Batman comparision and I am definitely with the Batman.

I’m Team Batman too!

Lauren wrote: "Shannon wrote: " I do love a good argument and a good grovel.."

Me too! It's the bickering and the "artistry of the good grovel" that make it fun!"

Totally agree with you both on that statement. If its done right, I love to see it in the story... the growth in groveling and redemption.