Obsessed with True Crime discussion

Hari mentioned doing a personal challenge for December. I think it's a fabulous idea, So fabulous I started a new topic and would like to extend it through February. OK I'm just lazy and don't want to think of a challenge.

"I'm making a personal challenge for December: I'm going to read two books on the perpetration of violence on Native Americans by Whites. I'm starting with a classic, "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" by Dee Brown, followed by "The Wrath of Cochise" by Teri Mort.

Ya'll are welcome to join me."

A few titles:

The Earth Shall Weep: A History of Native America
Bloodland: A Family Story of Oil, Greed and Murder on the Osage Reservation
A Poison Stronger than Love: The Destruction of an Ojibwa Community
Just Another Indian: A Serial Killer and Canada's Indifference
Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI
Murdering Indians: A Documentary History of the 1897 Killings That Inspired Louise Erdrich's the Plague of Doves
The Broken Circle
"I Will Fight No More Forever": Chief Joseph and the Nez Perce War
Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West
The Wrath of Cochise: The Bascom Affair and the Origins of the Apache Wars
The Murder of Crazy Horse: An American Tragedy
Starlight Tour: The Last, Lonely Night of Neil Stonechild
The Other Slavery: The Uncovered Story of Indian Enslavement in America
Give Me My Father's Body: The Life of Minik, the New York Eskimo
The Hunt for Willie Boy: Indian-Hating and Popular Culture
Willie Boy: A Desert Manhunt
Tell Them Willie Boy is Here

I just sent for an ILL to get a copy of Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI. Everyone is raving about it and, needless to say, my local library doesn't have it.

Found Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee at a book sale today so I will read that for the challenge.

Sounds good I'm in. I need to research some books.

I just started Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI. It's quite gripping, but in a totally different way from the other book I've read on this murder series, Bloodland: A Family Story of Oil, Greed and Murder on the Osage Reservation.

It is a little sad how many books there are on this title. :(

There could be a lot more out there waiting for us...and thousands more that will never be written because there's nobody left alive to remember the stories.

Totally incomprehensible to me how people in the early days of this country thought they could take whatever land they wanted and that it didn't belong to anyone.

I know what you mean! These idiots in Osage County in the 1910s seemed to go a step farther and say "we know it belongs to them but we're taking it anyway, even though it means I have to pretend to love one of them, marry them, have kids with them, then off the entire family." How freaking cold can anyone be???

I just stumbled across another account of a hate crime against Native Americans: Murder in Their Hearts: The Fall Creek Massacre.

Related: Tragic Saga Of The Indiana Indians

Now reading a new-to-me book that just happens to be on topic for this month: Ice and Bone: Tracking an Alaskan Serial Killer, about a creep who targeted Native women.

Did I mention Conquest: Sexual Violence and American Indian Genocide?

Bella's reading faster than anyone! Get cracking people!

Reading Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West and came across this Goodreads review. It would be funny if it wasn't so true:


Apr 18, 2012
Stephanie rated it
really liked it




Shelves: non-fiction, history, 2012
Fair warning, there may be some political views in this review which should not be surprising being that this book is the history of a government slaughtering a native people because they were simply in the way.

This book is a comprehensive history of the Native American from the moment when the white man showed up on this continent. It kind of goes a little like this.

White guys: “Hey y’all. Love the feathers! Wow its cold and we’re hungry; you wouldn’t be so kind as to help us out.”

Native Americans: Awe, they are just like little children. “Of course we’ll help. We’ll teach you how to hunt and fish and plant crops.”

White guys: “Thanks! By the way we would like to purchase some land from you, not much, just enough for us to live. What do you say?”

Native Americans: Purchase land? What do they mean by that? Everyone knows no one owns a part of mother earth. They are sooo adorable. “Alright you can purchase some land” snicker “How do we go about this?”

White guys: “Well, we will give you some shiny things, trinkets and bobbles and you will sign a piece of paper that says this land ours and that you will stay off of it.”

Native Americans: These guys hilarious, but just to keep the peace…….”Okay, deal. Bobbles and we shall sign this piece of paper. But what happens if we enter “your land”?

White guys: “We will kill you.”

Native Americans: Oh man! They can’t be serious after all the help we gave them; we saved their lives for cripes sake. “uh…..alright, just this once.”

White guys: “Guess what, we have more friends coming and we need a little more land. Sorry, won’t happen again, but if you don’t hand it over we will kill you.”

Native Americans: WTF? “Hey, you lied to us! You said you wouldn’t do this again yet here you are. You’re not so cute anymore white guys.” Shit. “We’ll compromise THIS once, but don’t you let it happen again!”

This happened over and over again. The white man took land, slaughter Indians and the Indians would compromise to avoid war. Many Native American leaders really liked the whites and tried hard to be friends. But some asshat white guys would blow it and more death would happen. Finally some Native American leaders said “ENOUGH!” And went to war, but by then it was too late and they had their asses handed to them.

Thoughts while I read this…..

White guys = Republicans (ironicly still white guys)
Native Americans = Democrates.

Sometimes lessons are never learned

While reading Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West I wondered if we could change history, how different would it be if people had been more respectful of other human beings. If the white man hadn't thought he could just take what he wanted because Native Americans were savages that needed to be eliminated in order to have their land. If the white man didn't think the black man was an animal that could be kept as a slave. How would our world be different today?

Koren wrote: "While reading Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West I wondered if we could change history, how different would it be if people had been more respectful ..."

A lot more tan people.

And probably a lot more economic development worldwide -- we'd be investing in other countries rather than doing our best to exterminate them. There might be no concept of "First World" and "Third World."

(Where, by the way, is the Second World??? You never seem to hear about it...)

Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI, David Grann
4 stars

This was a gripping read, but ultimately unsatisfying. The book implies that the author came away knowing something about possibly hundreds of wrongful deaths, but for the most part he says no more than "Well, there's even more to this than I've told you." So tell me already!!! The cases he did go into were thoughtfully and resourcefully researched and the facts were laid out well. Very much worth your time if you are interested in genocide. For a more personal approach to this hideous story, I can't recommend Bloodland: A Family Story of Oil, Greed and Murder on the Osage Reservation too highly.

Lady♥Belleza★✰ wrote: "Koren wrote: "While reading Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West I wondered if we could change history, how different would it be if people had been mo..."

You are hilarious.

Fishface wrote: "And probably a lot more economic development worldwide -- we'd be investing in other countries rather than doing our best to exterminate them. There might be no concept of "First World" and "Third ..."

Interesting. I've never thought of that.

There would also be a lot more people in the world. Hard to grasp the concept of 100's of thousands of people being murdered and no one seemed to think that was a problem.

Ended up skimming the second half of Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West. It all started sounding the same after a while. I would have liked the book to go closer to the present times as I feel the Indian is still persecuted in some areas, but it ends in the late 1800's.

Well, I know you've already read the heartbreaking "Starlight Tour," which is from just a couple of years ago. If I hadn't just started the new Phelps I would re-read it right now.

(Does anyone know how I can add a linked book title to my comments using the dang Kindle app? )

Fishface wrote: "Well, I know you've already read the heartbreaking "Starlight Tour," which is from just a couple of years ago. If I hadn't just started the new Phelps I would re-read it right now.

(Does anyone k..."

I kept thinking about the movie Billie Jack. I don't know if it is fiction or based on a True Story but it really hits home how the Indians were darned if they did and darned if they didn't.

Fishface wrote: "Well, I know you've already read the heartbreaking "Starlight Tour," which is from just a couple of years ago. If I hadn't just started the new Phelps I would re-read it right now.

(Does anyone k..."

I have the Kindle app but don't use it. There doesn't seem to be a way.

Koren wrote: "Fishface wrote: "Well, I know you've already read the heartbreaking "Starlight Tour," which is from just a couple of years ago. If I hadn't just started the new Phelps I would re-read it right now...."

I believe the story is fiction, but they based it on the real issues groups like AIM were protesting at that time.

Just bought Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West on Kindle, was cheaper than Kobo, mainly because the non-fiction book group I'm in is reading it in February and my library card is expired.

Starlight Tour: The Last, Lonely Night of Neil Stonechild

Lady♥Belleza★✰ wrote: "Starlight Tour: The Last, Lonely Night of Neil Stonechild"

That one is infuriating.

Fishface wrote: "Lady♥Belleza★✰ wrote: "Starlight Tour: The Last, Lonely Night of Neil Stonechild"

That one is infuriating."

But fits the challenge.

Oh, I'm not putting the book down. I could not recommend it more highly, especially as it's perfect for this challenge.

Found another book that fits the challenge.

The Other Slavery: The Uncovered Story of Indian Enslavement in America

Since the time of Columbus, Indian slavery was illegal in much of the American continent. Yet, as Andrés Reséndez illuminates in his myth-shattering The Other Slavery, it was practiced for centuries as an open secret. There was no abolitionist movement to protect the tens of thousands of Natives who were kidnapped and enslaved by the conquistadors. Reséndez builds the incisive case that it was mass slavery—more than epidemics—that decimated Indian populations across North America. Through riveting new evidence, including testimonies of courageous priests, rapacious merchants, and Indian captives, The Other Slavery reveals nothing less than a key missing piece of American history. For over two centuries we have fought over, abolished, and tried to come to grips with African American slavery. It is time for the West to confront an entirely separate, equally devastating enslavement we have long failed truly to see.

Oh, man, that sounds like a heavy read.

Fishface wrote: "Oh, man, that sounds like a heavy read."

I can't say, it showed up in my recommended reads from Amazon.

I forgot I had borrowed The Earth Shall Weep: A History of Native America, have to read that now, putting aside all else.

I forgot about this one: The Hunt for Willie Boy: Indian-Hating and Popular Culture. On the same case (and more of a TC treatment, I believe): Willie Boy: A Desert Manhunt. And, the basis of the movie of the same name, Tell Them Willie Boy is Here.

The case may or may not fit neatly in the monthly challenge; some consider the Paiute central character a mad dog with no redeeming characters, others see him as more like a victim.

Found another book Give Me My Father's Body: The Life of Minik, the New York Eskimo

If you are still looking for a book to read for this challenge, our friend and long-time member of this group, Southwest Zippy has an excellent shelf containing books about native-americans. You can find it here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/list...

I know I added a post about this but it seems to have disappeared. So here we go again:

Willie Boy: A Desert Manhunt

Opinions are divided about whether the title character was a victim of prejudice or as mad-dog killer.

This one was, BTW, made into a movie that became another vehicle for Robert Blake to play a murder suspect before being charged with murder in real life.

Fishface wrote: "I know I added a post about this but it seems to have disappeared. So here we go again:

Willie Boy: A Desert Manhunt

Opinions are divided about whether the title character was a vi..."

Weird I can still see it, maybe Goodreads was glitching when you were posting. I'm also adding these books to my original list post.

My computer terminal at work has been on major drugs for like a week now. It could be about that.

Read Starlight Tour: The Last, Lonely Night of Neil Stonechild last Sunday. Gave me a bunch of conflicting feelings.

Which feelings are in conflict?

*doffs shrink hat*

I'm about halfway into Willie Boy: A Desert Manhunt and I'm glad I read up elsewhere on the case first. It makes it easier to see the holes in the narrative.

Fishface wrote: "Which feelings are in conflict?

*doffs shrink hat*"

First I was angry, then I was frustrated, then I was resigned, and then a little bit of joy. Then frustrated again.

Joy? Where? I don't remember any joy in that story.

My library system had one copy of Willie Boy: A Desert Manhunt. This looks so interesting.

Just finished Monster Slayer by Robert Scott, which I didn't know until I got into it that it fit this challenge, although not a particularly well-written story, unless you like court room drama that is mostly repetitive.