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The Problem with Proofing: When are you done?
I'm not aware of a technological solution, not one that I'd trust, anyway. One suggestion, which I've found to be more thorough but a lot slower, is to put it through a critiquing process as well as beta readers.To me, they are different processes with different depths of focus. Typically a beta reader gets the whole manuscript in one go and reads through it, looking far more at the overall story (flow, continuity, pacing, development) - basically, is it a satisfying read? They will certainly spot some errors but that is not their real focus. From my own experience I would expect to spend maybe 10 to 15 hours on a pass of a novel.
The in-depth critiquing process, by contrast, tends to pick things apart line by line. It can easily take months to get a novel critiqued in this way, representing 25 to 40 hours of effort, but the result should be a lot more thorough.
I got a couple of beta readers to look at my current WIP earlier this year. At the same time I was putting it through the critiquing mill. Both perspectives are valuable but the critiquers picked up on many errors that neither I nor the beta readers had spotted.
There are many critiquing sites around, e.g. Critters, and Critique Circle. Please feel free to message me if you want links.
The best technical solution for me is to listen to my book while reading along. I have my Kindle (with text to speech) read to me while I read along on the Kindle app on a tablet. The reason I don't use the same device is because if I highlight or make notes while the Kindle is reading, it stops and loses its place. Using a second device helps. Typically, I do about 4 passes with the voice, but not all in a row.However, your assessment that readers expect zero mistakes is a bit lofty since you will be hard pressed to find any book, indie or trad, that is error free.
Christina wrote: "However, your assessment that readers expect zero mistakes is a bit lofty since you will be hard pressed to find any book, indie or trad, that is error free...."I was exaggerating to make a point, but I do believe some readers expect zero errors, based on my reader feedback. Nice idea about the voice checking, tho.
Christina wrote: "The best technical solution for me is to listen to my book while reading along."Good suggestion. I've not tried this myself but have heard others recommend this, too.
Reminds me of a related technique which I've also heard from many sources and which I do use: print it out in hard copy, and read it aloud to yourself. Your mind works differently when reading aloud - and especially from a printed page rather than a screen - compared to reading silently.
This has the added benefit of highlighting long and clunky sentences, not just typos. If you run out of breath, there's probably a problem :)
I don't know what kind of errors you're finding, but maybe a straight proof read would help, and by someone who has not already read it. If the issues are story content, plots, unplanned time reversals, that's a tougher fix, but for straight forward punctuation, grammar, things like that, a thorough proof read should help. There is also a point of diminishing returns. I see questionable things in industry books, newspapers, etc., but they still get the story/article across and they are still published. So it's hard to always have one hundred percent agreement on what is correct. And there is style to consider which sometimes contradicts the rules.
The other variable of course is the reader: there are the gotcha-type readers (who may really want to write themselves but haven't gotten up the courage and gleefully pounce on anything), and there are readers who are more interested in the content. Really, the more you read the more you will note, as mentioned, that the trades have hiccups too. (Of course too many mistakes will knock a reader out of the story--like missing sentences/stops midsentence--and especially if they are early on--but those would have been caught by your betas.)
Changing fonts is a good idea--Courier looks like nothing else and is easy to proofread. It can mess up your spacing, breaks, etc., so if you go that route make a separate copy. If you've changed character names, a search can help but don't do a replace all. For your next go-round, have a fresh set of eyes read it.
Bottom line, give it your best shot; you won't please everyone but that's ok. :)
Mod
I am near the end of this process now. It seems like it will never end, but it does. I took the advice of a member of this group and am using my paperback proof to do a final proofing for both paperback and ebook formats. I have someone who has not read the manuscript previously, proofreading the proof. I read somewhere that you know when you have finished with a manuscript when you become sick of it. That is where I'm at now. Final corrections and I put this one to bed!
I find that using a reading program where I can hear it, helps tremendously in getting a book ready for publishing. I helps on phrasing, sentences. wording, etc. As to story structure...that's another ballgame. If you are looking at the punctuation, grammar, etc., as has been said, have someone else read it and send feed back or hire a proof reader. There does come a time when you have to turn it lose and move on.
The only people who would expect "zero errors" are the linguists who would charge you thousands to make it so. Let's be honest, with a decent level of clean up, you will already well within an average reader's capability zone. Not saying that you shouldn't try to be as clean as possible, just that it doesn't make sense to go for perfection.If you have limited funds to this (but do have some), I'd suggest something like this:
- Go through with the basic spellchecker of your chosen word processor.
- Reread it in one more fashions suggested above. (Find the one that suits you the best.)
- Feed it through one or more elaborate tools like languagetool/Grammarly, but don't believe every suggestion. Use them as focus points worth checking.
- Send it out to some beta readers if you can. You will probably get a few errors as feedback. (Might opt to do delayed/shifted hand outs for this.)
- Look for a freelance proofreader who will give it a last go. You can find people online like English teachers who will ask for a reasonable price to do it.
At this point, you should be ready to publish it.
Unless of course, if you are publishing an academic book about the intricacies of the English language :P
Just my tuppence...
Great discussion! After 3 groups of beta readers & multiple rewrites, I hired an editor who tightened language considerably. Then I had it typeset & hired a proofreader to go thru the pdf twice after all revisions were made. It’s self help with some exercises & tables & figures so typesetting was a bit pricey. But it looks great! Pre-orders start Jan 20, so I (& others) will go thru the review copy one more time before we revise files for next print run & e-book. Whew!
Something that helps me immensely is to find a voice reader and listen to my book. Voice Dream is a good one. It helps me catch lots of errors. Also if I'm just editing, I'll use the ms word reader. It sounds like Steven hawking but it's fine for short passages
aahhh, proof reading: perennial headache for indie authors/ my first self published novel went through a second issue -- corrected by volunteer readers who purchased he first issue...! leaving me embarrassed though GRATEFUL,/ my second novel enjoyed the benefits of finding dedicated and knowledgeable proofreaders among my friends who did a thorough job weeding out a number of nitty gritty things from the manuscript -- before it went into production/ they found plenty of things to correct, that I hadn't noticed myself after six or seven times combing through it (yes, even doing so in reverse order, bottom to top -- didn't work well for me) / I don't think there's another way to get on top of this than by either hiring a professional, or be lucky enough to find dedicated AND KNOWLEDGEABLE volunteers among one's friends!
Mod
There's a third option. Do it yourself. That's the one I choose. I'd hate to turn over the fun of editing and proofreading to others. I enjoy it.
I am editing at the moment too. I had a few beta readers give feedback and now I'm using ProWritingAid to pick up grammar and spelling errors we have missed. It's the first time I've used the software and I'm impressed - there are many options for running reports - overused words & phrases, cliches, readability and 'sticky' sentences. At under $200 I think it's good value.
I've tried listening and reading aloud to myself. It really helps with the flow of the words. I've always heard of people retyping everything a few times.
One thing I like to use is a grammar checking program. There's tons: grammarly, Ginger, etc. It's a really good tool to use to find errors that you may have over looked. They're not going to catch everything, but they'll defiantly catch more than just eyeballing your manuscript alone. IMO the more you can edit it yourself, the more money you should be able to save on professional edits.I also think, that while it's ideal to have a book free of errors, I'm not going to sweat it if a few slip by. I've read tons of books coming from big publishing houses by well known authors, and I'll still fine errors in those works half the time. I'm not a huge grammar nut, so an error here or there doesn't bother me too much of I find one in someone's story. Just so long as I'm able to read it and not get confused, I'm fine.
I would have to agree with those who've said that if you want 100% you are never going to finish. I was rereading an e-book from a well established author, who presumably has editors and proof readers to spare, and I noticed an acronym had been misspelled in one paragraph. I think that the best you can do is get the level down to the point where it doesn't distract from the story and if you do that hopefully your readers will be so engrossed they won't even notice the ones that were inevitably missed.
This might sound like the lazy option, but sometimes... simply take a break. Read something else, then come back with fresh eyes. And that's not the advice of me, a humble one-book author, but Stephen King, in his advice-and-memoirs novel 'On Writing'.Unfortunately, the human mind is hardwired to fill in any gaps while reading. I find the more familiar I am with a text, the more I subconsciously auto-correct and miss things.
There's some good techniques mentioned here, like switching font and reading aloud to yourself. I used them all, proofed my first novel four times, but still -to my chagrin- an editor at my publisher found some errors. We got there in the end, however.
Don't beat yourself up about grammar Nazi's; often they don't know what to say about theme/ character/ plot etc. so they pick on the minutiae. Persevere; when you see your series in print, the long hours will feel worth it. : )
You can try editing from the back. Do one sentence at a time. That came from an editor. The goal is to catch as many as possible. I hate the errors which are obvious and pull you from the story.
First, use your word processor with spell check. I used to use Grammarly, but now I favor ProWriting Aid. In any case, once you're through with your initial edit, read it aloud to yourself. You would not believe how many mistakes you can find this way. Last thing, have a second set of eyes look at it. Then read it again. Repeat process until you or none of your readers find any issues. Keep in mind, the way experts authenticate first editions are by the known typos they find. Each subsequent printing of books historically have more and more errors corrected. I have read only a couple of first edition books that I felt were cleanly edited.
Perfection is an asymptotic curve. You can never reach it, but you can get close. But at some point, the extra effort offers no perceptible benefit anymore.
Let me tell you about a theory (hypothesis) I have about books and editing ...Books are like gardens. You can clear all the weeds out of a garden bed, till the soil, tend it, nurture it and sow it with the best seeds ... but if you let it sit a few days or weeks, it will all go to weeds.
Same with books/stories. I've edited until my fingers bled, made every word count and made sure to expunge my text of all literary weeds, then let the book/story sit for a few weeks or months or years and re-read it ... only to find the weeds have sprung back!
So, if you don't go back to old works and weed them every now and then, they'll just ultimately be taken over. Consequently, there is a finite amount of writing any one author can do and maintain before their entire life is taken up with weeding old texts.
We. Are. All. Doomed.
O_o
Mod
As per Ann's post: "We’re here to learn from one another - not tell others that our way is the best and/or only way."
Micah wrote: "Let me tell you about a theory (hypothesis) I have about books and editing ...Books are like gardens. You can clear all the weeds out of a garden bed, till the soil, tend it, nurture it and sow i..."
I think of the process as being like killing cockroaches in a city apartment - there are always some lurking somewhere. Or whack-a-mole games at arcades. Garden wees is a more pleasant image. :)
I'm awaiting the arrival of my proof today. I'm really quite excited to get started. But it will also cost me another 150 dollars to change anything in the manuscript (adding punctuation, rewriting a word, etc.) because apparently my whole book could be thrown off because of it. If so, I will not be looking forward to it. But, if I don't notice enough errors to make a true difference either way, I'm not going to fret over it. I'll go ahead and publish it and work harder on my next book before I even get the proof. And hopefully, by then I'll have some extra change to get editorial services, etc. with my next one. Good luck to all you out there trying to be heard!
D. wrote: "I'm awaiting the arrival of my proof today. I'm really quite excited to get started. But it will also cost me another 150 dollars to change anything in the manuscript (adding punctuation, rewriting..."Hi D, congratulations :) can I ask which editor you used and whether you found them useful and value for money? What genre do you write?
I'm considering hiring a professional editor but don't know which one. I've used a freelance editor in the past for two picture books but now I've written a novel and that's a very different beast.
Thanks in advance
Pertinent topic! Many comments above are spot on - You can (and should) do everything that you can yourself, but after living with a novel during the creation stage, it's really, really hard to spot consistency or detailed (syntax, grammar) issues. Word 'echoes' are a particular problem for me and no automated checker seems able to catch them all (waiting for AI to better fill this void).
This may or may not work for you, but for me, I did all the high-level and stylistic editing myself because that's what makes it 'my' book. However, I used both a professional line editor and a (different) proofer - amazing what all they caught.
Never. It can go on forever and ever! Seriously, I've been hiring a proofreader but her prices have gone up so much that I can't afford her anymore. I'm pondering this myself and keeping an eye on this thread for suggestions. Problem is, the beta/proofreader is probably the best option overall, even if my checking account doesn't agree.
Peter wrote: "Pertinent topic! Many comments above are spot on - You can (and should) do everything that you can yourself, but after living with a novel during the creation stage, it's really, really hard to s..."
Peter,
Have you tried ProWriting Aid? It's great for catching echo words and overused words.
I haven't tried this - good suggestion. I'm guessing that I may still need the human editing touch too.This thread's comments all show that it's a difficult balance to strike between getting a high quality final manuscript vs the cost of human/automated editing, and the time editing/proofing takes. I tend to err on the side of quality, but it's a decision every author must make for themselves.
I call this the 'yeah but' line, the line at which I stop my editing process is the moment in which my only complaints are that annoying voice in my head going 'yeah but what if?' Because if I don't ignore that, I'm going to be here for the next year.
It's only finished after it's been ploughed through a zillion times and published and you open the first copy, instantly spot the glitch, and blow your brains out. Then it's done.But seriously: I write jointly with my partner, who's a very good editor, but once it's through multiple drafts we sit down with two printouts and take turns reading it aloud. We do the interior layout ourselves, so each page has at least two more readthrus after that.
If we could afford a professional editor we'd do it, but we'd still do exactly what I've described above.
Conrad wrote: "It's only finished after it's been ploughed through a zillion times and published and you open the first copy, instantly spot the glitch, and blow your brains out. Then it's done..."Oh how true that is! It always seems like there is an other. But a good guide line: when you are so sick of it you can't see straight, go back to it after a few weeks and after several more passes by you and other editors not finding anything, it is done. However, don't be surprised if someone raises their hand down the road with a typo. I still find a error or two in books out of the Big 5. They aren't enough to pull one out of the story but are there if you are looking.
Don wrote: "Conrad wrote: "It's only finished after it's been ploughed through a zillion times and published and you open the first copy, instantly spot the glitch, and blow your brains out. Then it's done..."..."When my book is finished there are three friends I send a proof to and give them a note book to jot down any typo's, often as not they find quite a few, yes one does get to the point where you just can't see anything anymore. Most people just want to read the story and not looking for mistakes.
Mod
Please don't point out typos others have made. It's petty. Remain positive.
I don't have a perfect answer, but here's what I do (so far).After all the edits (I have a 'raw' beta and a 'real' beta and I have someone who isn't a fan of the genre read it...a variety of 'edits', including a copy edit by a relative that is eagle-eyed), there are always still issues.
So... I publish it after I can't find one more thing. For me, this is when I can't take it anymore. The story is done, it flows, I like it, others like it, great, let's be done.
Then, I put it up on KDP select for the first 3 months. After the first couple months, I grab my paperback copy I purchased from createspace (and not until then - my brain needs the break), and reread it. I ALWAYS find something to fix, and I do. I fix all the little things I found, and then after the 3 months on KDP, I RErelease it on an aggregate site. Same cover, same blurb, just this time as I uploaded the manuscript, I've got (hopefully) the last of the annoying mistakes. (I also RErelease it on Amazon and createspace, which is essentially just updating the manuscript.)
Like I said - not a perfect answer, but it's what I do (for now).
I'm an editor by profession, so I tried my darnedest to ensure my book was typo-free. I had the benefit of having put it away to "marinate" (as I call it when I let my work sit for a while and come back to it with a fresh brain). Plus, I had two fellow editors review it and, as of yet, I haven't noticed any typos. (Knock on wood.)But if I do come across any, I'll feel better with the memory of reading the last Harry Potter book and finding four typos within the first 20 pages. If a major publishing house is okay printing bazillions of copies of a manuscript that isn't perfect, then I can live with one or two in my book.
Jenna wrote: "I don't have a perfect answer, but here's what I do (so far).After all the edits (I have a 'raw' beta and a 'real' beta and I have someone who isn't a fan of the genre read it...a variety of 'edit..."
AMEN!
Hi JennaThat's certainly a very robust process - but what does it cost you?
If by robust you mean a lot of work, then not much in time. I'm actually a pretty fast writer. (Both a good and bad thing.)If you mean the cost of publishing my book for a few months knowing there are a few mistakes, I'm not sure, but I don't think very much in loss of sales. Any mistakes I've found post publishing were not too bad. I'm not trying to brag - I'm an excellent speller and grammatist (I know, not a word, but you get what I meant, right?), and in my former life I'm pretty sure I was a copy editor.
I should add that for now writing is a hobby and a creative outlet. I love the process, the moments where I find that favorite scene flowing out onto a page... And I love seeing my book all pretty in its final cover. Maybe one day I'll make enough to call myself an author in public, but for now this works for me.
Letting a manuscript marinate a few weeks or so is probably one of the best ways of rooting out the hidden boo-boos. I go through ProWritingAid, several beta readers with a good eye who don't mind letting me have it, and then marinate. Then, go to a pro editor like you.
I had a couple of beta readers to give me feedback on the story and characters. Basically, I just wanted to know if they cared enough to turn the page LOL. But I did the proofreading myself. I'd like to hire a proofreader in the future, but not there yet. I did a lot of editing in my former corporate life, but proofing other people's business writing is quite different than proofing your own novel (as I learned). One thing I did was record myself reading each chapter out loud. I found that really helpful. It made me slow down and deal with each word, each sentence.
I find the most trouble with erotic writing. If done well beta readers get caught up in the action and their minds fill in where the errors are. So I’ve started going over the sex scenes with the pages of advice from above posts and knocked out a few hidden errors. I find reading erotic scenes backwards is hard to do without laughing out loud.
After reading over the comments, I can relate to everyone’s concerns and experiences while editing or proofreading their novels. Every time a new error popped up that I missed (post publication) I died a little inside haha. I did find using various proof readers and proofing it myself after professional editing to be the most helpful. Contrary to what some writers may believe, I think striving for ZERO errors is extremely important. The cleaner your book is, the more it sets you apart from less experienced writers. Professional writers. I know it’s hard to meet perfection, as even big name publishers miss errors here and there, but as indie self-publishing authors, if we don’t set the bar high, our work may fall short. Of course, the story has to be more than a little interesting too. Personally though, I aim at weeding out ALL errors. A few errors a book are usually forgiven in a good story, but a book filled with a few errors a chapter make a book look unprofessional and can be annoying for many readers I’ve learned.
Personally, I’m worried that I’m the last 5 or so years writers have the impression they should lower the bar on “perfection.” I’ve picked up plenty of books that looked interesting that were written so unprofessionally I had to put them down. You have to put the work in. Anyways, that’s my two cents.
Leah, your two cents are quite valid. Your comment about how even a few errors can make it look unprofessional is the hallmark between self-published and books by the big houses. When I got to present the first 10 pages of a YA book to an editor from Brown and Little, she was irritated that I left a space at the end of every paragraph. I'd rewritten it numerous times, had an editor proof it twice and still, she had major complaints. At first, I was angry that she focused on an error that no one could even see over content. Later, it showed me just how high the bar is set for professional production. Errors only make you appear less than average.I used to review children's dog books and quite a few SP works were well done, but overwhelmingly, they were rife with newbie errors, poor artwork, poor use of show-don't-tell, incorrect attributions, dangling prepositions and more. I finally quit doing it when I found myself getting as irritated as the B n L editor had. Dangling prep and all.
Everly, the criticism is what teach us the most, isn’t it? As long as it’s honest and constructive, not ridicule. I spent about $1500 on editing in total, and the first time I got my debut back it was red from start to finish with advice to restructure half of it. As my editor was a published writer and quite good, I chose to trust him and added a few chapters and restructured where needed. Then I proofread a few times with the help of friends after the editor went over the book a second time. It was quite the process but worth it! It’s probably still not formatted by some publisher standards, but I can no longer find one significant error! Cross my fingers! Lol
Mod
This line confuses me. I'm not sure what you mean.
Dwayne, It’s a typo lol! I meant “in” not “I’m.”
Mod
Ah. So, none of us are perfect. Lesson learned.
Am I missing something? Is there a technological solution? (I don't trust online spelling or grammar checkers.) All suggestions welcome!