The Sword and Laser discussion

There is this thing i have - i can't blindly pop even great books from my to-read stack - i usually spent a lot of time finding that something that i am in mood for at the moment.

But right now i'm all set - i want to have a character who collaborates with dark circles of fantasy world. It can just be a necromancer/demonologist story, but in the ideal setting the Undead and Demons (or some very nasty dark elves - huh?) would be considered valid political factions - not just a never-ending threat to all races - and the main characters would work for or with them/ have connections inside those factions/be dedicated to help them pursue their goal. It would be nice if the characters themselves where from some less evil factions.

So please! What can you recommend me?

Peter V. Brett’s Demon Cycle is in that ballpark. The main character, Arlen, covers himself in mystic runes in order to fight the demons that plague the world, but he starts losing touch with his humanity bit by bit. The first one is The Warded Man.

In subsequent books we see the story play out from different POVs, with other factions who have the same goal as Arlen but go about achieving their objectives using methods which are less nice.

I’m sure there are books based on Warcraft which are exactly what you’re looking for. The Blood Elves, Night Elves and Undead are all viable factions in those games, each with their own interests.

Elric.

Sabriel is a sort of interesting take on good and evil. She's a necromancer, but for the side that wishes to separate the dead from the living. It's listed YA so it's not a terribly complex story, but not the kind of YA with long introspective scenes about love triangles.

Sandman Slim is probably right in line with that. Dude trapped in Hell for a decade finds himself back on earth and facing those who betrayed him--and it turns out Hell isn't the worst thing out there.

Fated is about a magical world where the dark side is a valid, respected pseudo-political/religious decision.

Tales of the Ketty Jay series. Basically a steampunk Firefly. One of the crew members is a daemonist and there were lots of cool demonic actions. Hilarious at times, but can be dark too.

Start with the first book, Retribution Falls.

Silvana wrote: "Tales of the Ketty Jay series. Basically a steampunk Firefly. One of the crew members is a daemonist and there were lots of cool demonic actions. Hilarious at times, but can be dark too.

Start wit..."

Oh yeah! Good call.

The Devil is a Part-Timer - Imagine if at the end of Lord of the Rings, Sauron had leapt through an interdimensional whirrlygig and ended up in the modern world without the ability to use magic anymore, and to get by he has to get a job at McDonalds, where he plans to rise up through the ranks and eventually use the company to take over the world. Oh, and Eowyn followed him through the whirrlygig and got a job with a tech support hotline to support herself while she hunts for Sauron, but when they finally meet they end up bonding over their shared experiences and slowly fall into love.

Thanks! Just realized that Sandman Slim exactly matches my description! I actually have it in my list, but did not consider it, as would like it to be a separate world, not urban fantasy - forgot to mention that... (plus I have also started a Dresden Files book, so i have had enough of that). I can say this about Fated , too.

Retribution Falls and Sabriel look very promising, i definetely want to read them. As for Elric, i think it may be to romantic and Conan-like for me), but i may try to read it as well.

Actually, I don't see the Sandman Slim books fitting your criteria. Stark doesn't really collaborate with 'evil' so much as only care (initially) about his own goals. While hunting down his former friends who trapped him in Hell might not be Boy Scout material, it's kind of understandable. Excellent stuff, though.

Fated I read recently and it feels like a cross between Dresden and the Hounded series by Hearne. OK but inessential.

Rick wrote: "Actually, I don't see the Sandman Slim books fitting your criteria. Stark doesn't really collaborate with 'evil' so much as only care (initially) about his own goals. While hunting down his former ..."

*shrug* to each their own, and moot as they're urban fantasy not secondary world, but there are a lot of things in Sandman I'd call "collaborating with evil," lol. I don't want to give anything away but even on the side of angels, he's not on the side of angels, na'mean?

Allison wrote: "Rick wrote: "Actually, I don't see the Sandman Slim books fitting your criteria. Stark doesn't really collaborate with 'evil' so much as only care (initially) about his own goals. While hunting dow..."

Right. He's on his side. He has contempt for God and the Devil (and other things) so, if OP was looking for something where the story is told from the 'evil' perspective fighting the 'good' then I'd argue Stark isn't doing that. He's mostly interested in his own ends and, as the series goes on, in protecting his friends.

I completely love the series and highly recommend it. It's just that I don't see it as having a protagonist that's fighting for dark against light which is what I took the original request to be desiring.

Alex Verus starting with Fated is great just give that one until book 4 a chance. It starts off as generic Urban Fantasy and just keeps getting better, it's my favorite now.

People might go ohh boohoo it's a Dresden rip off. Uhh another generic urban fantasy why would I read this, I'm not waiting for it to get better. It gets better does that mean it starts off weak. Nah it starts off pretty darn good, and I'd put fated up against the first 4 Dresden books and it would beat their socks off, and starting with book 4 the Alex Verus series is a wild ride.

Yeah the Verus stuff is good. Reminds me, another that fits this is Dead Things from Stephen Blackmoore. Excellent series and the main character is a necromancer who, well, has issues.

Aaron wrote: "Alex Verus starting with Fated is great just give that one until book 4 a chance. "

Book. Four. 0.o

It looks like the books in the Alex Verus series are pretty short, Trike, but yeah, it's not like people don't recommend starting with Book 3 or 4 with Dresden Files oftentimes.

Oh, wait, Fated... Verus. Hmm... yeah I was unimpressed with that mostly because it IS kind of a mashup of Dresden and Hearne's Hounded stuff. I was thinking of Mike Carey's The Devil You Know series. Fated was OK and actually pretty well written but you can see the seams.

3 stars for me. Maybe I'll try the 4th book though.

Would Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch fit the definition?

David wrote: "It looks like the books in the Alex Verus series are pretty short, Trike, but yeah, it's not like people don't recommend starting with Book 3 or 4 with Dresden Files oftentimes."

Dresden is start on book 3(maybe 4), but you got to give it until book 6. It generally keeps getting better from there. I had to basically be yelled at by lots of people to read this after thinking the first books sucked, then the next few were passable, but I really did learn to love the series.

Iron Druid gets worse overtime not better, the lolcats was a literary crime, and no I haven't continued reading since that.

Alex Verus starts in that good zone where you read it and go huh that was enjoyable and forget to read the rest of the series(I did this for years), doesn't help the 2nd book is more of the same quality wise if not a touch worse but then it starts picking up and fast and gets extremely good.

Aaron wrote: "David wrote: "It looks like the books in the Alex Verus series are pretty short, Trike, but yeah, it's not like people don't recommend starting with Book 3 or 4 with Dresden Files oftentimes."

Dresden is start on book 3(maybe 4), but you got to give it until book 6. "

o.0

I will never understand this attitude. If a book isn’t good within the first 50 pages, it’s a lem. Waiting for TWO THOUSAND PAGES? That’s insanity.

“The first nine times we ate at this restaurant it was terrible, and Marge got food poisoning twice, but I hear the tenth meal is amazing.”

I don’t have enough time left in my life to subject myself to such pain. Who are you immortal masochists that do this?

Trike wrote: "Aaron wrote: "David wrote: "It looks like the books in the Alex Verus series are pretty short, Trike, but yeah, it's not like people don't recommend starting with Book 3 or 4 with Dresden Files oft..."

TBF, Fated was a fun read, and I do intend to get to book 2. I think for this series maybe a better wording would be "it comes into its own" or it "really ramps up" in book 4? Is that about right? Obviously I can't say yet! That's how it was with Dresden. Book 1 was fun. Book 2 was better written. By book 3-4 he had his formula figured out, but it doesn't mean the first two weren't enjoyable, just that they weren't as strong as later books.

But I agree Trike. The "sure, the first season was bad, but it really picked up 22 hours in" mentality is just not mine!

How do you feel about web serials? I've been enjoying the heck out of A Practical Guide to Evil, personally.

It's a story about an orphan girl who decides to join the Dread Empire that's oppressing her homeland to change things from the inside. She becomes the Squire to the Black Knight by murdering a man in cold blood, and embarks on a journey of doing wrong for the right reasons.

As with most web serials the editing isn't always perfect, but getting 2-3 chapters a week and having access to the entire story up until that point for free (nearly 3 books now) just feels so nice. Nice enough that I don't mind supporting the author on patreon, even.

Hi,
I do not want to look like I am simply promoting my own work here, but I have to say that I jut published a dark fantasy book called A Prayer for the Necromancer. It fits what you are searching for :)
If you want to read some established author, Sapkowski's work (which even if the main character himself is not a demon/necromancer, he does collaborate with dark circles of fantasy world), is great. Blood of Elves is his first book. Also The Dark Elf Trilogy Collector's Edition by R. A. Salvatore is related to what you are searching for.
Hope it helps :)

Wouldn't our own S&L read A Darker Shade of Magic qualify? Plus it's got London x3.

The Witcher and A Darker Shade of Magic have actually a close feel. Too bad i have finished both already). The idea of Shwab's book - the messenger on duty in all 3 kingdoms(the evil White especially) is one of the ways i've imagined this to be like. As for The Good Omens, - no, the friendly-sarcastic Pratchett is not what i expect).

In general, i am longing not for urban fantasy, but for the "otherworldy(literally)".

Some examples of the setting are found in games, as some people already guessed (Warcraft and Drizzt suggestions). Heroes of Might and Magic and maybe Warhammer Total War have nice factions to mention. Similarly, Sunless Sea had marvellous interactions between London and Hell, much like in A Darker Shade of Magic. Though i've found plots of those games to be poorly written, and i think that is what stops me from picking on something which originated from game universe. That, and the stubborn confidence in that someone must have explored this topic in the pure literature.

Sky wrote: "How do you feel about web serials? I've been enjoying the heck out of A Practical Guide to Evil, personally.

It's a story about an orphan girl who decides to join the Dread Empire that's oppressi..."

If we are playing the webnovel game, I'm just going to slap the good old READ WILDBOW'S WORKS button.

Trike wrote: "I don’t have enough time left in my life to subject myself to such pain. Who are you immortal masochists that do this?"

It's in part because I do have friends I really trust and there are plenty of stories I love that start meh/alright then become super awesome.

The other part is I have friends(who read <5 books a year) that jump up and down that X book is great and I got to read it cause it's amazing and they refuse to listen to any of my recommendations unless I read their book...of course I then read their "amazing" book think it's okay or maybe trash then they ignore all my recommendations because I have bad taste :(.

C. S. Friedman’s, the Coldfire Trilogy, starts with “Black Sun Rising” is the novel I point D&D players to when I hope to explain how Lawful Good any Lawful Evil characters can work together towards a same goal. The world is vivid and the characters compelled me to want to read more.

It is kind of a spoiler to recommend it in this context, but if you are interested in a comic book series that fits that category, I would highly recommend (view spoiler)[Birthright by Joshua Williamson. And the art is amazing.
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