Goodreads Librarians Group discussion

I don't know how policies are decided, but I wish to propose a reconsideration of the Librarians' policies concerning the placement of the length of audiobooks. I have seen a little discussion under "Questions," but none here under "Policiies and Practices".

Under the editions field,, the Librarian's Manual advises that " information regarding audiobook length (use the description field and see page numbering)." Under page numbering,, we are advised "For audio books, the number of hours rounded up should be used in lieu of number of pages...."

I understand that it may be difficult to revise the software in such a way as to add hours and minutes fields, but it is not difficult to add, for example, "Unabridged, 9 hrs 12 mins" to the edition field. Rounding up to 10 hrs. is significantly less informative. Adding the length information to the description field prevents one from adopting the default description. Further, this addition to the edition field is in precisely the right place when one views the details, in small type on a single line below the description, just as the number of pages.

My proposal would not require retroactive changes and is no more difficult than adding the series title and number after the title of the book. The length of an audiobook, even by the same narrator, can vary considerably, depending, for example, if an afterward or interview is appended to the reading. (A 45-minute interview would not the page number in my example above.) A particular format could be recommended, but it would not matter much if there were variations (e.g., "9hrs. 12min."), since the edition field is unstructured.

If the powers-that-be insist on retaining the present format, I suggest that it be standardized to appear in the description and that a convention be adopted as to its placement, e.g., at the end or beginning of the text.

as the manual says "use the description field" length info goes into description and rounded up as pages. not into edition field.

As Lachgas pointed out, the manual is quite clear on this. We can lose our librarian status for making changes contrary to policy. Until a new policy is released, we follow what is written in the Librarian Manual.

And—just a reminder that this discussion is more appropriate for the Feedback Group, which is where site functionality issues are discussed.

Midwest wrote: "Adding the length information to the description field prevents one from adopting the default description."

You can first adopt the default description and then edit it to add the precise listening time (do not then make it the new default description, leave the box unticked!)

'Unabridged' can go in the edition field. The number of hours rounded up can go in the page count field, and the precise listening time in the description field. Works fine, in my opinion.

While requests regarding changes to functionality should indeed be in the Feedback Group, this one seems to also be a suggestion about changes in policy. And for that part, this is the correct place to start a discussion.

However, it might also be a good idea to look through the group's older posts for the previous discussions on this topic.

rivka wrote: "While requests regarding changes to functionality should indeed be in the Feedback Group, this one seems to also be a suggestion about changes in policy. And for that part, this is the correct plac..."

Thanks, Rivka. I did read the manual and, in my original post, even included links to the relevant sections to help promote informed debate. I also searched the discussions for previous proposals or similar suggestions, and, while I found requests for clarification about its application, I did not find this specific suggestion for change. (I also did not find a statement about how one might go about proposing a change or how they are decided. I presume that there are by-laws somewhere available only to employees.)

My proposal seems quite workable and an improvement to present practice without requiring a rewrite of software or a retroactive treatment of previous entries or posts.

For completeness, in the Feedback Group, I found a proposal for a new field from more than 5 years ago. I also found related feedback from 2016 and from last summer (officially closed). Personally, I think this is a topic for discussion by Librarians familiar with the current policies and practices, which is why I posted it here.

One motivation for improving the audiobook format here is that the methodology and software on audible.com, which I have used, is so much inferior to GR's system. (Don't get me started....)

I did knowingly violate policy in a few cases when creating new audible editions (of the Dortmunder series by Westlake), but I wanted to see how it might work under the existing software in a variety of cases. It works seamlessly, adding no new lines to the display and, unlike the description field, appearing in a place that anyone interested in details will clearly see. Most of these have already been changed by watchful Librarians to conform to present policy. For example, instead of "9 hrs 4 min" in the display of details on the edition line, there appears "10 pages". Please raise your hand if you consider this an improvement. (In future, I won't create more work for Librarians.)

When I have time over next weekend, I will post an example here in order to clarify my proposal and, I hope, to focus discussion.

Midwest wrote: "I did knowingly violate policy in a few cases when creating new audible editions"

Please do not do this. They will be corrected to match policy.

Midwest wrote: "For example, instead of "9 hrs 4 min" in the display of details on the edition line, there appears "10 pages". Please raise your hand if you consider this an improvement."

hand raised.This actually allows for people to update their reading/listening progress. And let's not forget that audible is not the only publisher/seller that offers audiobooks. Also a book that has 199 pages and a half will be added as a book with 200 pages. Not "199 pages and 15 lines" It is identical with listening length. If it goes over the hour makes sense to be rounded up.


Midwest wrote: "Adding the length information to the description field prevents one from adopting the default description."

Many of us do not like to the default description option.

Midwest wrote: "Most of these have already been changed by watchful Librarians to conform to present policy. For example, instead of "9 hrs 4 min" in the display of details on the edition line, there appears "10 pages"."

In the editions field? That is wrong, should be in the page count field.

Ellie [The Empress] wrote: "Midwest wrote: "For example, instead of "9 hrs 4 min" in the display of details on the edition line, there appears "10 pages". Please raise your hand if you consider this an improvement."

hand raised."

I agree with Ellie that that is analogous to rounding up printed page counts, so the current policy is at least consistent.

(And I also hate the default description, but I already explained how you do not have to forego the default description when adding listening time.)

rivka wrote: "Midwest wrote: "I did knowingly violate policy in a few cases when creating new audible editions"

Please do not do this. They will be corrected to match policy."

Is there a GR sandbox where one can try things out or sharpen one's use of the existing tools without mucking up the database?

lethe wrote: "Ellie [The Empress] wrote: "Midwest wrote: "For example, instead of "9 hrs 4 min" in the display of details on the edition line, there appears "10 pages". Please raise your hand if you consider thi..."

I recall reading a discussion where someone complained how the present practice made it more difficult for her to meet her challenge goal of reading a certain number of pages or page equivalents per year. (It isn't hard to import a simple html file into Excel.)

Midwest wrote: "Is there a GR sandbox where one can try things out or sharpen one's use of the existing tools without mucking up the database?"

Not in the sense you mean, no.

I think that we've come to a point in book formats that somethings could be updated at GR:

-audio books do not have pages so why are we forced to use an hour count as a false page count? I think the word count should be converted to MMPB page numbers for all audio editions OR that audios should be re-worked so they function as Audios, not pseudo-paper books

- comics could be re-worked and that is often requested

- Amazon ebooks do not have typical page counts - maybe allow for locations as well as percentages?

MrsJoseph wrote: "audio books do not have pages so why are we forced to use an hour count as a false page count? I think t..."

Good point. I hadn't really thought about ebooks but the categories instead of hrs & min, one could enter "1258 KB" in the edition field instead of or in addition to equivalent page count.

For audio books, there is no equivalent page count unless there has been published a paperback, ebook, or hardback copy. The time length of a recording depends very much upon the narrator(s). I have seen examples where two different narrations of the same book took either 10 hrs. or 12 hrs. That's another reason why the present policy fails. One version can be 9hrs 1 min and another, by a different narrator, could be 9 hrs 59min. Both would appear as 10 pp. under the present restrictive policy.

Just think how music has evolved from analog to CD to DVD and multimedia. LSI has changed everything, and media will continue to evolve.

My proposal requires minimal effort; no change in the software. The content and length of the edition field is flexible in the present system and is displayed on the same line as the format and page number. These properties of an audiobook or ebook are legitimate entries into the properties of the particular publication.

It might be better for some purposes if they were in distinct fields, but that can be left for some future iteration of or replacement for the GR platform. Native HTML isn't the last word in editing (or in creating relational databases.) In fact, it's essentially obsolete already, but that's a different discussion.

For a sandbox, you could do worse than hit up the public domain books in the projects folder, for instance Dover Classics. You'll learn all you want to know about the editing system as well as be doing something useful.

Midwest wrote: "For audio books, there is no equivalent page count unless there has been published a paperback, ebook, or hardback copy. The time length of a recording depends very much upon the narrator(s). I have seen examples where two different narrations of the same book took either 10 hrs. or 12 hrs. That's another reason why the present policy fails. One version can be 9hrs 1 min and another, by a different narrator, could be 9 hrs 59min. Both would appear as 10 pp. under the present restrictive policy."


This maybe true...but all stories that have been written have a word count. That's why I said MMPB page count because there is a relatively well-known and easy "standard" for those books: 250 words per page.

So a 10,000 word story would equate to roughly 40 pages of MMPB. I do this kind of conversion for myself all the time in my personal library catalog. I've found over the years that the equation is pretty accurate.

MrsJoseph wrote: "This maybe true...but all stories that have been written have a word count."

I'm not sure that is either accurate or relevant to the length of a graphic novel. If it doesn't already exist, there will come a time when the word count of a book is irrelevant.

There are increasingly multimedia presentations in the context of "books." See for example Marisha Pessl's novels, Special Topics in Calamity Physics and Night Film. One may miss a lot if one does not consult the online resources, which include web pages, audio, and video. (Even the English MMPAs vary between 592 pp. and 640pp.)

The definition of a "book" will evolve. To remain as relevant for the next 10 years, as it has for the past 10, GR will have to change.

Midwest wrote: " I hadn't really thought about ebooks but the categories instead of hrs & min, one could enter "1258 KB" in the edition field instead of or in addition to equivalent page count. "

This isn't what the edition field is for. However, there is no reason not to include such information in the description field, which is exactly what the description field is for.

As an avid audiobook listener, I would definitely love to see the addition of a new field for the listening length, and some sort of standardized or calculated page count used in the existing page count field. I realize there are many works that wouldn't fit into a formula that might work for the majority of books, but I'd like to think there's a viable solution to this issue.

Jeff wrote: "As an avid audiobook listener, I would definitely love to see the addition of a new field for the listening length, and some sort of standardized or calculated page count used in the existing page ..."

Agree.

It doesn't make sense an audiobook of 10 hours is shown as 10 pages in the statistics page of the reader.

If you have comments about this you need to direct them to Goodreads employees through Contact Us or go to the Help site. This is an older thread.