Reading the Detectives discussion

“Nemesis,” is the final Miss Marple novel, published in 1971 (Christie died in 1976). Unusually, this is something of a sequel. Mr Jason Rafiel, the wealthy financier we first met in, “A Caribbean Mystery,” has died. To her surprise, Miss Marple receives a letter, asking her to visit a solicitors. A sum of money has been set aside, if she will accept a certain proposition. Mr Rafiel wants Miss Marple to investigate a crime – the problem is that there are no real instruction or information. Of course, Miss Marple accepts and is later invited to take a tour – to be specific Tour 37 of the Famous Homes and Gardens of Great Britain. In this most unlikely setting of a bus tour, around the English countryside, Mr Rafiel trusts Miss Marple to solve an unknown injustice.

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

I read this book sometime ago, and I have to admit it is one of my least favorite Marple books. She is nothing like the wonderful character you see in the movies or on tv. I also read A CARIBBEAN MYSTERY, which precedes it. Perhaps by this time, Christie's attitudes about the world had 'hardened'. Heaven knows, she would have had her reasons.

I thought there was a lot of repartition, as if Christie was reminding herself of the story as she went along. I did like it though and did have the feeling of being adrift as Miss Marple felt when the bequest came from Mr Rafiel

I thought the idea was good. Christie's later books suffered from her increasing grumpiness, which was fairly evident in this book!

I enjoyed this in parts, but agree with Jill that it was a bit rambling at times. There was a lot of Miss Marple deciding where she was going to stay, moving into the Golden Boar, moving back to the Manor House...The end explanation was quite waffly too.

The idea was good and the way it was set up, and it was nice to revisit characters from A Caribbean Mystery.

Clearly, Christie did not think much of the younger generation. Emlyn Price seemed to be a nice guy, albeit with tight trousers and long hair!

It wasn't only young people, she seemed to think women were leading men astray. There was a distinct lack of sympathy which was slightly shocking from a female author. However, I put it down to age and general bad experiences in her own life...

Like all later Christie books, Nemesis suffers from repetitiveness and an overall feeling of dullness. It is a pity really. The plot has so much promise! The motive reminds me of The Herb of Death from The Thirteen Problems and also a little of Sleeping Murder. Elizabeth Temple reminds me of Honoria Bulstrode from Cat Among the Pigeons. If only an younger Christie had written Nemesis! It could have been an intriguing read.

It probably would have been a better novel, had she written it while younger. However, I really enjoyed it and it was intriguing to read about an elderly character, from the point of view of an older author.

A few months ago I persuaded myself to reread the Christies I know least well, on the grounds that they couldn't be as bad as I remembered. Much to my disappointment, they all were. Nemesis was among them - like a lot of the late efforts, it's rambling, confused and rather grim in subject matter. It reminds me a lot of Halloween Party, with its split between beautiful young innocents and corrupted, cynical adults.

Like other commenters, I find the structure irritating, with too much emphasis on Miss Marple moving from one place to another. And the coach party premise, which is so promising, fizzles out disappointingly as soon as you realise that the three sisters are the real point of the plot.

My theory is that the Notebooks have a lot to answer for. When Christie was lacking inspiration, she went back through her notebooks to look for ideas she hadn't used and sometimes this seems to have resulted in a rather 'by numbers' story, whereas the ones which inspired her 'in one go' feel more natural and organic.

Finished. It was interesting seeing how Christie has depicted an older Miss M while keeping her mind as sound as ever.

Yes, Miss Marple did really well working not - not only who-dunnit, but what they did, Brina. I, for one, was impressed.

I enjoyed the feel of the storyline - wondering which of the passengers on the tour were involved, etc. and the way the mystery unfolded.

Annabel wrote: "It reminds me a lot of Halloween Party, with its split between beautiful young innocents and corrupted, cynical adults...."

I agree, Annabel - I was reminded of Halloween Party too, also by the frequent complaining about young people's attitudes.

I mean the boulder did evoke a scene from Death on the Nile but I guess after hundreds of books, Christie is entitled to recycle ideas.

I was interested to see how many cultural references there are in this novel - T.S. Eliot, Shakespeare, Greek tragedies, Chekhov and probably more that I've forgotten.

This was a new read for me (or if I had read it previously I don't remember it!) While I enjoyed the mystery/plotting, I was also disappointed that the coach tour rather fizzled out (and wouldn't it be strange just to leave for a couple of days to go stay with someone else!) Also, the comments around sexual assault (if Michael Rafiel had assaulted a previous girlfriend, well, he was young, she was probably asking for it, and it's not all that serious anyway was the general drift) and the complaining about young temptresses were rather unsettling, particularly in the current political climate!

I seem to recall reading an article in which someone had analyzed the style of Christie's writing over time-the variability of the nouns used, the complexity of the sentence structure, the degree of descriptiveness etc, and found a definite downward trend into her later years, suggesting a probable progressive dementia, at this point in its earlier stages.

Frances wrote: "Also, the comments around sexual assault (if Michael Rafiel had assaulted a previous girlfriend, well, he was young, she was probably asking for it, and it's not all that serious anyway was the general drift) and the complaining about young temptresses were rather unsettling, particularly in the current political climate!..."

I agree with you, Frances, that this was quite disturbing. The attitude to lesbian relationships is also pretty negative (although there is some sympathy expressed) - of course, this was written in another era, but I think many people in the 70s would have taken a more positive view.

Yes, Christie was certainly very unsympathetic, as I think I said before. It did not read well, as you say, in the current climate and also revealed a lot of her own issues regarding men who strayed. I think she always loved Archie and felt he had been led astray (not that he needed much help, probably!). That whole event made her embittered, I suspect.

Judy wrote: "Frances wrote: "Also, the comments around sexual assault (if Michael Rafiel had assaulted a previous girlfriend, well, he was young, she was probably asking for it, and it's not all that serious an..."

I don't think it follows that someone living in the 70s would have a more positive or tolerant view, particularly if they were raised in an earlier time. I have a neighbour who is 91 years and living in today's age, but she has very set ideas about 'the loose morals of today' as she terms it. Just because she's living today doesn't make her anymore tolerant or accepting.

Frances wrote: "This was a new read for me (or if I had read it previously I don't remember it!) While I enjoyed the mystery/plotting, I was also disappointed that the coach tour rather fizzled out (and wouldn't i..."

I agree, Frances. I think her aging was more noticeable in her writing than Miss Marple's ability to think and get about. Noticing some of her slipping, I wonder if she kept writing just to line the pockets of her publisher and not because she really had a burning desire to continue.

Well, I had a very difference experience of this book which I liked very much. I loved the brooding atmosphere of the house, and many of the literary allusions that Judy pointed out above @15 act as clues to dark happenings within a household. I also thought Romeo and Juliet was being referenced, especially in relation to the secret marriage arranged with the archdeacon - and liked that Christie gave her rendition some bite, avoiding a saccharine romance.

I agree there's some repetition, but loved the female 'guardian angel' coming out of the cupboard at the end... and the idea of Miss Marple gleefully going off to spend her money! I just hope it wasn't on too many fancy tea towels...!

Oh, and it seems crazy that 50 years on, detectives are still being fooled by that old erased face/switched identity trick. I'm assuming Christie wasn't the first to use it so presumably it's even older.

I liked the book too, RC. I thought the idea was good, I enjoyed the parts set on the tour particularly and I thought the characters were interesting. Yes, Christie was a little grumpy, but I knew this was a later book and over looked it.

I had no conscious memories of reading this book as a 12-year-old, but I knew there was a body underneath all those white flowers over the greenhouse as soon as it was mentioned. Did others guess this too, or was I remembering?

I did think there was a body there. I think the chapter being called by the name of the plant had something to do with it.

Good point,Judy-I thought that as well as soon as I read it (although I thought it was the missing young woman) and also wonder if I subconsciously remembered it from a much earlier reading. Roman Clodia-I agree that the plotting was still wonderfully tricky with lots of red herrings, but there were dropped things too-did we ever find out what was in the package Anthea sent away? Was that thread ever completed?

I guessed that, too, especially as much was made of the plant's ability to grow fast over anything, and the lovely white flowers. Plus Clothilde's insistence that the greenhouse not be dug up.

I found the whole 'love' story (both loves) supremely haunting.

Frances wrote: "Good point,Judy-I thought that as well as soon as I read it (although I thought it was the missing young woman) and also wonder if I subconsciously remembered it from a much earlier reading. Roman ..."

The package contained the lurid scarlet and black jumper that Clothilde wore when pushing the rock down on Miss Temple. I thought it was very mean to try to make her poor sister look guilty.

Oops, must have read too quickly over that part!

It was in that very long wrap-up when Miss Marple explains everything at the end, I think.

I do love the brooding, haunting atmosphere of Nemesis too. I agree, it is kind of like Hallowe'en Party. But the atmosphere of a lot of the late Christie books were similarly brooding. I can think of Elephants Can Remember as another example.

I thought some of it was obvious, especially to those of us who read a lot of mysteries. Hmmm, greenhouse covered in plants you cannot visit - has to be hiding something... I did love it though and I thought it was very clever and showed that Christie was capable of writing great, later books. If anyone says she never wrote anything good in the Sixties, I shall point to this.

So quite a few of us spotted the greenhouse, then! I watched the Joan Hickson adaptation last night and noticed they really played this down and only showed it very briefly, so it might have been harder to guess if you were watching without having read the book.

There were quite a few changes in the TV version, the main one being for Miss M's godson Lionel to accompany her on the coach trip. This works pretty well as it gives her someone to talk to about the other passengers. I've now watched all the Joan Hickson Miss Marple adaptations and she really is Miss Marple for me. :)

Judy wrote: "So quite a few of us spotted the greenhouse, then! I watched the Joan Hickson adaptation last night and noticed they really played this down and only showed it very briefly, so it might have been h..."

I totally agree. Joan Hickson is the one actress that is able to depict Miss M just as she was described in the books. She has that wonderful ability to pause mid sentences, gaze into the distance, and then return to the present with that gentle air of vagueness, and display that gentle assertiveness and determination.
I think the other actresses have been a little too aggressive and matter of fact. Miss Marple is a bit of a busy body, but not a mass of business and organising.

Perhaps they thought the greenhouse was too big a clue, so they downplayed it, Judy?

Joan Hickson is the best Miss Marple, without doubt.

I have never seen a Miss Marple movie but I will have to track this one down. I realized the mound when she did. Before that, my mind worked in crazy ways. I thought that if Verity's parents died in a plant crash, then maybe she was the daughter of Mr Rafiel's daughter and the sisters wanted to prevent her from marrying her uncle. How wrong I was and sadly in this instance incest would have been less heinous than the actual crime committed.

Beware that there are some changes (as there always are) with the TV adaptations. In the Hickson one, Michael Rafael is much nicer than in the book. And in the McEwan one, well, it's like a whole different story!

Judy wrote: "Frances wrote: "Also, the comments around sexual assault (if Michael Rafiel had assaulted a previous girlfriend, well, he was young, she was probably asking for it, and it's not all that serious an..."

I also found this bit disturbing. I am sure that there were (and maybe still are) some girls whose parents talk into laying rape charges because the parents are upset with the premarital (but consensual) sex but the remarks come across as Christie's personal attitude that rape wasn't really a serious crime.

Other than that, I very much liked this one. In particular, I liked how Christie gave the reader an insight into how Miss Marple thought while not revealing too much. I loved the episode at the post office when she was checking out where the colorful sweater had been sent to!

How I agree re Ms Marple and her depiction but Joan Hicks on. Margaret Rutherford shudder.

The commentary on rape was utterly appalling in my view. This was a lawyer speaking. Unfortunately, this attitude is not only apparent in the early 1970s when this book was published. It prevailed for far longer.

Robin wrote: "The commentary on rape was utterly appalling in my view. This was a lawyer speaking. Unfortunately, this attitude is not only apparent in the early 1970s when this book was published. It prevailed ..."

Indeed, it is really only being challenged quite recently. I do agree those remarks were shocking. We deride political correctness, but for anyone who grew up in the Seventies (like I did) can attest, it came about for a reason. Television, and all media, was just shockingly sexist then.

I quite enjoyed it despite the rambling bits- the solution particularly had a touch of creepiness.

Judy wrote: "So quite a few of us spotted the greenhouse, then! I watched the Joan Hickson adaptation last night and noticed they really played this down and only showed it very briefly, so it might have been h..."

I realised later that I ought to have with a comparable event in another AC- but I didn't. I vaguely remembered the who (from TV)- and another plot detail was similar to another Marple we read- that I caught on to. But not the greenhouse.

Mark Pghfan wrote: "Clearly, Christie did not think much of the younger generation. Emlyn Price seemed to be a nice guy, albeit with tight trousers and long hair!"

No _ I remember a similar line of thought in other books as well- how dirty and unkempt they looked etc.

Actually, if you are a Christie fan, you might have noted in Taken at the Flood (Poirot, late 1940's) Lynn Marchmount implies something similar regarding girls and rape. She says something like "I expect some of them ask for it." I remember being appalled at that.

Yes I was thinking of exactly this quotation in Taken At The Flood. I love this novel, so I find it really disappointing but I have over the years become good at editing out the dodgier remarks in Agatha Christies.

Annabel wrote: "Yes I was thinking of exactly this quotation in Taken At The Flood. I love this novel, so I find it really disappointing but I have over the years become good at editing out the dodgier remarks in ..."

Me too, Annabel.

Thank you, Mark. I'm writing an article that begins with the Nemesis quote and can add the Taken at the Flood.

I add an article written in 2011 to the article mentioned above. Alas, no comfort there. Christie was emulating much of the legal fraternity with her comments. These views remained in 2011.

I agree, Robin, it was sadly typical of the times. And even lingering somewhat today, if that is not too political for this discussion.