SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Ammonite and Trouble on Triton are both by queer authors.

Jordan wrote: "Ammonite and Trouble on Triton are both by queer authors."

I thought they were by a lesbian woman and a gay man, respectively?

Not Your Sidekick has a bi protagonist and the author is bi, so it's ownvoices for that, but it also has other LGBTQIA+ characters, so those would not be ownvoices. The sequel Not Your Villain qualifies for another LGBTQIA+ category (not saying which one on purpose to not spoil the first book), and the third one coming out this year Not Your Backup, also has an LGBTQIA+ protagonist, again a different one, but books 2 and 3 are not ownvoices. So this series is only ownvoices for the bisexual category, and only the first book.

I don't know if that matters, but I'd love to try to find ownvoices options for as many categories as possible, even if it's not the group pick. It's kind of hard to do research sometimes, because I don't want to know much about the books before reading them.

Yeah, this one is a hard thing to define as it requires people be out and using a very specific identity. I'll update Not Your Sidekick!

Allison wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Ammonite and Trouble on Triton are both by queer authors."

I thought they were by a lesbian woman and a gay man, respectively?"

Huh, I think I pulled them from a queer authors list a while back but it was probably using queer as an umbrella term rather than an identity. So nevermind on that.

Jordan wrote: "Allison wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Ammonite and Trouble on Triton are both by queer authors."

I thought they were by a lesbian woman and a gay man, respectively?"

Huh, I think I pulled them from a qu..."

It's still good to know :) I've made notes about what I can find.

Allison wrote: "Remember you can second as many books as you want. As we don't vote, this is just a process to see how many people would join us if we read it together."

Oh! Well if it's a list of what I'd join in reading, other than An Unkindness of Ghosts I'd also read along with The Way of Thorn and Thunder, The Left Hand of Darkness, The Black Tides of Heaven, The Gilda Stories, Jane, Unlimited, Every Day, More Than This, Ammonite, Trouble on Triton: An Ambiguous Heterotopia, Fledgling, The Girl in the Road, The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay, or Salt Fish Girl

Although I'd definitely prefer own voices and something that wouldn't fit into the other LGBT categories.

In this month's Locus mag there's an interview with JY Yang where they(I think that's the right one??) state: "I'm a queer non-binary Singaporean writer so I'm marginalized on all fronts."

ok, i'm gonna vote for Black Tides, Unkindness, Way of Thorn and Thunder, Girl in the Road and Salt Fish Girl. Marking here so I don't confuse myself.

I’ll read whatever the group decides and eventually read the others too because queer sci fi/fantasy is my fav but I agree that for this square it would be cool to read something that is different from the other lgbtqia squares.

Rachel wrote: "In this month's Locus mag there's an interview with JY Yang where they(I think that's the right one??) state: "I'm a queer non-binary Singaporean writer so I'm marginalized on all fronts.""

Thanks, Rachel! And it looks like you're right, they do use "they" as their pronoun.

I'll second Way of Thorn and Thunder and Carnival (Elizabeth Bear!!!)

Books with seconds:

The Black Tides of Heaven - 5 (queer author)
An Unkindness of Ghosts - 3 (queer author)
Dreadnought (also listed for trans) - 3 (trans author)
The Left Hand of Darkness - 2
Fledgling - 2
Ammonite (also on my list for the lesbian square!) - 2 (lesbian or queer author, hard to say)
The Girl in the Road - 2
Salt Fish Girl - 2
The Way of Thorn and Thunder (Also Native American!) (queer author) - 2
Carnival - 2

Books with insufficient seconds:

The Red Threads of Fortune - 1
Karen Memory - 1
Not Your Sidekick - 1 (bi author)
Passing Strange - 1
The Gilda Stories (also lesbian and going on the list for that square!) (lesbian author) - 1
Jane, Unlimited (ditto) - 1
Every Day -1
More Than This (primarily gay. Thanks Nicol!) - 1
Trouble on Triton: An Ambiguous Heterotopia (on my list for the gay square, too) (gay author) -1


-----------------------------------
Books without seconds:

Elements: Fire (queer author)
Of Fire and Stars (though I think this is more specifically a lesbian relationship from what I can tell)
The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet (queer author)
Ascension

Instead of seconding everything because I want to read all the books, I'll just wait and see what everyone else votes for this month.

Lol, Jordan. Okay, let's say it this way. We'd need three people NOT to second Black Tides if we don't want to read Black Tides (and possibly, as Anna suggested, Red Threads). If you do NOT want to read Black Tides, keep seconding.

I'm going to jump on board and second The Black Tides of Heaven as well because I literally (metaphorically) opened it this morning.

Passing Strange has lesbian relationships and some women who dress as men, so it could certainly fit additional bingo squares.

Meredith wrote: "Passing Strange has lesbian relationships and some women who dress as men, so it could certainly fit additional bingo squares."

Thanks Meredith!

Okay. I'll leave the decision open today to see if we get any more votes, but unless that vote is many and is "not Black Tides," then we're reading that as a group!

Allison wrote: …Let me know if I forgot something! I excluded a couple that didn't seem to be SFF. And there are several books from our bookshelf. While I won't t..."

Just for consideration, any of Jacqueline Carey's first Kushiel trilogy should work, as well as any of the three Ann Leckie Imperial Radch series!

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While I a thinking of it: what happens if you or I roll a number we have already used? Do we follow the bingo rules and discard it? Or do we repeat a category, even if it comes up several times? Or, like the white elephant game, do we repeat a square up to some limit (such as three).

Mike wrote: "Allison wrote: …Let me know if I forgot something! I excluded a couple that didn't seem to be SFF. And there are several books from our bookshelf. While I won't t..."

Just for consideration, any o..."

Reroll for duplicates! I mean, you're free to read as many books for a square as you want, but if you're trying for Bingo, reroll!

There's a lot in the Kushiel series that's bisexual, poly, and kink friendly, for sure! I think I'd probably count it more bisexual for my own list, but I can definitely seeing it fill a queer square, too. Her biography does not offer up to me what her own words would be for her personal orientation, so I'll defer there. I will also defer to someone with more info about the Radch books. The first one could be seen as genderqueer, but it's more genderless, which I guess is not NOT queer...hm! That's an interesting challenge. I haven't read the others, but I'll let the group decide on that. It's a fascinating take on gender, either way.

I think genderless would count as queer. It's definitely not straight or cis, and there certainly are people who identify as agender in real life who consider themselves part of the queer community.

Ann Leckie's newest book, Provenance, might be a good choice instead of the Radch trilogy. It's set in the same world, but in a section of space where there are three main genders, versus the Radch's lack of gender.

Aster wrote: "I think genderless would count as queer. It's definitely not straight or cis, and there certainly are people who identify as agender in real life who consider themselves part of the queer community."

Very good point. I guess I'm stumbling on the "is it showing someone agender when the culture does not recognize gender in a way that allows someone to opt out." They also call everyone "she" but I wouldn't say it's about femmes.

I'm all for people including it if they'd like. It's absolutely worth a read, could absolutely be used for this square and is on our group bookshelf.

Jordan wrote: "Ann Leckie's newest book, Provenance, might be a good choice instead of the Radch trilogy. It's set in the same world, but in a section of space where there are three main genders, ..."

That feels like an easier match, for sure.

I second Provenance. It's on my "real world" to-read-bookshelf. :)

Meredith wrote: "I second Provenance. It's on my "real world" to-read-bookshelf. :)"

Ditto.

Books with seconds:

The Black Tides of Heaven - 6 (queer author)
An Unkindness of Ghosts - 3 (queer author)
Dreadnought (also listed for trans) - 3 (trans author)
The Left Hand of Darkness - 2
Fledgling - 2
Ammonite (also on my list for the lesbian square!) - 2 (lesbian or queer author, hard to say)
The Girl in the Road - 2
Salt Fish Girl - 2
The Way of Thorn and Thunder (Also Native American!) (queer author) - 2
Carnival - 2
Provenance - 2

Books with insufficient seconds:

The Red Threads of Fortune - 1
Karen Memory - 1
Not Your Sidekick - 1 (bi author)
Passing Strange - 1
The Gilda Stories (also lesbian and going on the list for that square!) (lesbian author) - 1
Jane, Unlimited (ditto) - 1
Every Day -1
More Than This (primarily gay. Thanks Nicol!) - 1
Trouble on Triton: An Ambiguous Heterotopia (on my list for the gay square, too) (gay author) -1


-----------------------------------
Books without seconds:

Elements: Fire (queer author)
Of Fire and Stars (though I think this is more specifically a lesbian relationship from what I can tell)
The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet (queer author)
Ascension

Allison- I know I am terribly needy, but there are so many wonderful books suggested in this thread. Would it be possible to compile a running list somewhere (maybe just even add them back into the first post of this challenge) of suggested reads per square that we can add to every month?

That way I can check in on it quickly for inspiration every now and then? *cue sad puppy dog eyes*

Feel free to shut me down if that’s too much clutter... I am perfectly capable of doing a spreadsheet. I seem to be doing a terrible job of finding appropriate authors/characters for some of the lists that involve more personal aspects of an author’s life (LGBT+ spectrum).

Sarah wrote: "Allison- I know I am terribly needy, but there are so many wonderful books suggested in this thread. Would it be possible to compile a running list somewhere (maybe just even add them back into the..."

How about this? Here's a copy of the list I've prepared for us so far. It's not 100% complete, and I won't promise to update it regularly, but I'll do my best. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...

And remember it doesn't have to be authors! I love that we're trying to do "own voices" but some of this gets really tough, so I hope we'll allow ourselves a little flexibility.

Allison wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Allison- I know I am terribly needy, but there are so many wonderful books suggested in this thread. Would it be possible to compile a running list somewhere (maybe just even add them..."

That's a lovely spreadsheet, Allison! And your key on the side is super helpful.

That is perfect Allison!! Thank you so much for sharing.

This is amazing 🤩🤩. Thank you so much for sharing and your hard work!

Since it seems like The Black Tides of Heaven is the likely group read, I just wanted to post here quick: it is $1.99 on the US Kindle store today. I'll also put it up in the sales thread but I wanted to mention it here just in case.

I'm having lots of trouble finding something for 8 and 9 (Hindu and Buddhist). I found this list which has the movie The Fountain (which I've seen), so I'm thinking would The Fountain graphic novel work for 9?

https://engagedbuddhism.net/2016/08/1...

Or is it cheating if I knock out 8, 9 and 10 with The Years of Rice and Salt, since it's "alt-history about a world in which western Europe and Christianity is wiped out by the Black Plague and the world is dominated by the other three world religions: Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism"?

Then again, maybe I should just chill, it's January.

Sarah wrote: "Since it seems like The Black Tides of Heaven is the likely group read, I just wanted to post here quick: it is $1.99 on the US Kindle store today. I'll also put it up in the sales thread but I wan..."

That's excellent timing! Thanks for the head's up. I have purchased it!

Kristin B. wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Since it seems like The Black Tides of Heaven is the likely group read, I just wanted to post here quick: it is $1.99 on the US Kindle store today. I'll also put it up in the sales th..."

Same! Thanks, Sarah!

Anna, I have a few listed for Hindu, I haven't gotten to investigating Buddhist yet. Remember one of the rules is that it's one book per square ;-)

I think we're going to have better luck with the Buddhism square by researching Buddhist authors. There are a few with "Buddhist themes" but it's a pretty short list from my preliminary check, you're right. I'll try to delve a little further ASAP :-)

I'll try to calm down and read some of the books I already have lined up. It's not the end of the world if I don't have a complete plan yet :)

@Allison and Kristen: Happy to help!

@Anna- I managed to find two that deal with Buddhism, Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny and The Hunt for Xanadu by Elyse Salpeter.

I’m not sure if the authors themselves are Buddhists, but this particular square proved difficult. Allison’s list posted above seems to have some great options for the Hindu lore.

I was specifically trying to find ownvoices books, and so far it's not gone great for 8/9. Also, it'd be great if they were something I actually want to read. But I gave up worrying about it for now. There's plenty to read and I can come back to those later.

I'm trying to enjoy reading more this year, so it's better to stop obsessing over lists when I notice I'm getting annoyed. This is supposed to be fun, not a chore.

Yeah I understand. Own voices would be preferable to someone who doesn’t have first hand knowledge/understanding of the lore and mythology. I just think that religion/belief systems are harder because the author has to come out and say: “I’m a Buddhist” which might be something personal and private to them. With the different ethnicities, I don’t think it’s as private a matter, many people are proud of their heritage and have no problem saying: “I was born in China” or whatever.

And then it gets mucky beyond that because you might have been born into one religion and adopted as an adult a different set of beliefs or ideologies so then it’s like: is it good enough for someone to just say they are a Buddhist? Or maybe someone isn’t a Buddhist but they grew up in an area where that ideology permeates their culture. Do they count as “own voices”?

That being said: for Hindu, there is a YA fantasy novel that was released or is due to be released this month, Markswoman, by Rati Mehrotra. She was born in India and her novel has a hint of Hindu folklore in it (there is an Order of Kali). I won a copy in a giveaway and thoroughly enjoyed it- so that might be one option for you?

Thanks Sarah, I'll look into that one.

I feel very uncomfortable digging into authors' religious beliefs and sexuality, and also things like mental or chronic illness. It's often very easy to find a picture of an author and see if they're white or POC, but other than that, unless they clearly state it somewhere, I feel weird researching. I try to find recommendations lists, so essentially I'm letting someone else do the work for me. It's not that I don't want to do the research, I like doing that, but I don't want to know too much about any author's personal life.

BTW, because of #ownvoices, I can't stop myself from writing ownvoices instead of own voices, the latter just seems wrong!

edit: Turns out that book was already on my TBR, but it's a new series and I try to avoid starting too many of those.

Haha- am I writing it wrong? Outside of GoodReads I really don’t participate in Social Media. I like Twitter, but am not on it very often.

Anna wrote: "Thanks Sarah, I'll look into that one.

I feel very uncomfortable digging into authors' religious beliefs and sexuality, and also things like mental or chronic illness. It's often very easy to find..."

Yeah, it does feel a little weird, and so I think we need to do our best, be considerate, and keep thinking. For example, my list of Hindu books comes from a compilation of blogs that recommend these books for people looking to see Hinduism in their fiction. Where possible, I've tried to focus on books by people from cultures outside of the majority, and possibly more closely related to the element to be considered. It's likely not perfect, and I'm probably going to offend someone, and if so, I'll listen, apologize, and fix it to the best of my ability! It's important to me that we do not speculate overly, and that we allow people to categorize themselves. Which might mean we don't find as many options as we could, so we may have to deviate from an author to a respectful examination of that group as indicated by praise from in-group members.

Allison that sounds like a great method for finding books of this nature. I’d been doing more general google searches, not necessarily digging deep into authors lives but just like “______ sff books/authors.” It often gives me an article or reddit thread with some information/lists but my results haven’t proven as fruitful so I will have to give your methods a go.

Anna wrote: "I'm having lots of trouble finding something for 8 and 9 (Hindu and Buddhist). "

Indra Das's The Devourers draws from Hindu legend and philosophy. It's been on my tbr for awhile.

Travis wrote: "Indra Das's The Devourers draws from Hindu legend and philosophy."

That's actually one of my options for 7/8, but I'm not sure I want to read it after all. It may be too horrory for my taste.

My other option, which I'm also not super into right now, is The Immortals of Meluha. I'm in a scifi mood right now, so maybe that's why none of these fantasy/mythology options speak to me.

Anna wrote: "Travis wrote: "Indra Das's The Devourers draws from Hindu legend and philosophy."

That's actually one of my options for 7/8, but I'm not sure I want to read it aft..."

Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny might be a good fit for you if you want scifi.

Anna wrote: "That's actually one of my options for 7/8, but I'm not sure I want to read it after all. It may be too horrory for my taste.
"

I am super horror-averse as well, and it just came in for me at the library. I'm hoping the horror is more subtle/creepy than explicit/gory and am planning to give it a shot...will let you know how it goes.

Travis wrote: "Anna wrote: "I'm hoping the horror is more subtle/creepy than explicit/gory and am planning to give it a shot...will let you know how it goes..."

If you read it could you post your opinion on this thread? The Devourers has had a lot of interest and I'm thinking of using it in a random poll.

Travis wrote: " I'm hoping the horror is more subtle/creepy than explicit/gory"

I actually nominated it for something last year, and then changed my mind when someone told me more about it. I can't remember what it was exactly, but it sounded like a pile of guts in a bucket, so at that point I kind of gave up on the book. It's still on my TBR though and it keeps haunting me. Maybe I should just read it to get rid of it.

Bill, Lord of Light is on my radar, but I'll keep looking for something more "authentic", whatever that ends up meaning.