Navigating Indieworld Discussing All Things Indie discussion

Nope, not a wink. It's those damn squirrels. I've named them Amazon, KDP, and Kindle. They kept me up all night.

It's not as if this is sudden. I have built a huge list (now useless) of reviewers. I sat up (again sleepless nights) and wrote top reviewers on Amazon to ask for them to review our books. I always disclosed that they should say they got the book gratis and when the rules morphed-- so did my letters to them- No review is expected- our relationship does not influence the review.

I did build relationships with these people- they shared births and illness, I sent flowers when they lost a spouse. They are a wonderful group of people. I became one of them, the only difference was I bought whatever I reviewed ( I don't want to be tedious- you know why- I never wanted my integrity questioned). Most of us reviewed as a sport- It's a community much like ours. Many of them are disabled, homebound, have a crippling illness and this was their only outlet and Amazon cut them off. Thousands of reviews have been simply erased.

Most of you know I started writing when I lost my mom- what you don't know is that my husband and mother got lung cancer at the same time and my entire life was thrown into a tailspin. Writing and reviewing became a lifeline- hearing what people thought about my thoughts made me feel connected to the world. When I reviewed for you - it was for selfish reasons- It made me feel alive and with people.

Sometimes big corporations are heartless. Now, that I've given you the backstory- here's what I am going to say to you all as a friend.

There are no effective ways to promote out books anymore- We are going to have to do this on our own.
Julie has heard from indies that if they use those book advertising sites, and their books jump in rank- Amazon has stripped them of their ranks.
This is why it is imperative we make both the magazine and blog radio work. We have to support ANYBODY with a voice and make sure we keep those voices loud.
So, I will not ask anybody to write articles for the magazine- You have to decide if you are supporting free agents that want indies to be heard.
You have to get your books on as many blogs as you can and then you have to promote them. Everybody should be doing things like Erica does, and Kay with her Advent calendar. Then we all have to make sure we blast those things on Facebook.

I never saw doing this as a singular experience. I came on these sites to help other people with what I know and have learned. I want to save people from making the same mistakes I've made.

Anyone who wants to be on the podcast either mine or the Navigating one- Let us know. Get on Medium- Let your voices be heard.
Let's share our followers so that if any book gets a review or is purchased it is a victory for all of us.

https://gizmodo.com/amazons-review-po...

Carole wrote: "Nope, not a wink. It's those damn squirrels. I've named them Amazon, KDP, and Kindle. They kept me up all night.

It's not as if this is sudden. I have built a huge list (now useless) of reviewers..."

Truly a sad state of affairs. It was bad enough when they deleted professional reviews, but this smacks of Big Brother is Watching You. Truly reprehensible.

They are more than just stripping ranking. They have also closed down Author accounts and kept the royalties generated from Bookbub and other promo sites. There is hope but we as indies have to fight harder than ever before.

"They have also closed down Author accounts and kept the royalties generated from Bookbub and other promo sites."

Is this true?

It is. It’s all authors have been talking about on Facebook for months. If your book gets a sudden jolt from Bookbub they’re shutting you down in suspicion of click farming. And now some are afraid to use Bookbub and other services because if it. It seems they’re trying to reign in the scams but are collecting tons of authors doing it the right way in the wake

Taken from a group I’m in on Facebook. Oct 20th:

Two days ago I posted about the success I had with a recent Bookbub featured deal for a box set in my shared world Veil Knights setting. I was thrilled that the book had reached #97 in the Amazon store, solely through the Bookbub offer.

Amazon, apparently, was not.

On the morning after the Bookbub feature, I discovered that Amazon had stripped the book of sales rank. An hour later they stripped the author rank from the pen name. Half an hour after that, the book disappeared from all of the bestseller lists that it had landed on as a result of the feature.

In short, Amazon punished us for having a successful promotion.

The only promotion we did for this box set was the Bookbub featured deal. We did not swap newsletters, we did not advertise on any other sites, we did not run facebook ads - nothing but Bookbub.

Think about the implications of that for a moment.

The authors involved in the shared world project are all New York Times, USA Today and Amazon bestselling writers. They are all professionals and they take this business very seriously. To use a legitimate service and have our ability to sell the featured book stripped without notice or warning, for no wrong other than succeeding in a successful sale, is infuriating and wrong on so many levels.

Wonderful advice, Carole. A lot to think about.

Actually, the only reason I belong to KDP is to run discount sales in conjunction with ENT promotions. If Amazon is going to punish authors for running promotions, I'll pull all my books from KDP and just use their publication services as I need them. It's not going to change my life one bit.

R.L. wrote: "It is. It’s all authors have been talking about on Facebook for months. If your book gets a sudden jolt from Bookbub they’re shutting you down in suspicion of click farming. And now some are afraid..."

I don't see how they can withhold royalties. A valid transaction was conducted. A book for which you hold the copyright was sold by them under a contract which requires they convey to you a specified royalty. They may alter or delete the rank, but to withhold the royalty is a criminal act and amounts to fraud.

I know how u feel Theo. But they’ve done that to several authors. I hadn’t followed the story much after due to school so not sure if it got sorted, but it shouldn’t have happened in the first place.

You can’t feel defeated like that. We don’t need someone to swoop in and save us. We need to stand tall and scream at the top of our lungs that were important and demand to be treated as such.

We have the power to do whatever the hell we want. It’s the reason we’re indies in the first place. We said that no matter the obstacles we faced, we were going to publish our stuff and put it out in the world. We can’t tuck tail and hide because they’re too big. If every single indie removes their books, guess how worthwhile kindles would be to consumers. They’d basically be fancy paperweights. Without us fueling their bottom line, they have nothing.

We can be fighters and dreamers or we can get mowed down and be silenced. I won’t go down without fighting to the death and I hope no one else will either.

Count me in, RL I'm drinking whatever Koolaide you are making!

No big name is going to take us on as a poster child, guys- They are holding on with their fingernails and hoping the focus is on us- so they don't get it too!
I am busy today- that's why I'm quiet- I am copying all my reviews so I can put them on MY blog and no one can take them down. If you need part of your review- contact me and I'll send it to you to put on the editorial section of your book. Guess what- you can add that I am an author and I liked your book. I am a founder of a magazine and I endorse your book, and finally, I am a blog show host of two shows that will read each and every one of these reviews on air.

I know how frustrating it is @Alex. We will make it through. We just have to be brave. Lol @Carole I m creating a book review database on the website so we can have a place people can search for and review books there too. Lots coming up in 2018.

You are a marvel. I love how you dive in and fix things, RL_ very admirable.

Put on your seatbelt, Alex, we are taking you with us.

Thanks guys. Only trying to do what we promised to. Put indies first.

I have a lot of cars, Alex, but not a Rolls. We had one for weddings about forty years ago. Now all they want is SUV's.

My husband gets attached to them and makes it very hard to sell- But we have to turn them over often.

I'm not an Amazon fan by any means. My wife and I buy from them as little as possible (which means almost never). At the same time, I suspect this review business isn't the Pure Evil that most who have been bitten by it seem to think. It's more likely the law of unintended consequences.

Amazon wants to sell things. (Obviously.) Reviews are a part of the sales mechanism. (Equally obviously.) Taking down reviews willy-nilly doesn't make any sense. Taking down bogus reviews does make sense, but how do you distinguish the real from the bogus? Humans could probably do a fairly good job of distinguishing them, but given the number of products sold on Amazon, it would take a huge workforce dedicated to the job. They don't have that. For one thing, they're too cheap to pay for all that human intelligence. For another, even a company that isn't cheap couldn't justify that kind of staffing level.

Instead, they automate it. They have to. But this isn't an easy task to automate. It's likely riddled with flaws simply because it's not an easy thing to get right.

Amazon has done high-profile mass deletions before, and it's not just indie authors being affected. Hillary Clinton's book "What Happened" fell victim to review deletions earlier this year. Also, it is nothing new. It happened at least as far back as 2012.

The upshot is, Amazon isn't specifically targeting indie authors. They use automated review removal processes that don't always work well. (They seem to be pretty horrible at responding to complaints, but that's another matter.) Those processes may well affect indie authors more than traditionally published authors. Indies probably garner more reviews from mechanisms that are susceptible to being hit by the flaws in these processes.

But I agree with what many others have said here: over-reliance on Amazon is simply not a good thing. There are a lot of other mechanisms available for getting the word out about our books, and we need to make use of them. The trick is having the time and energy and know-how to make use of them.

Dale wrote: "I'm not an Amazon fan by any means. My wife and I buy from them as little as possible (which means almost never). At the same time, I suspect this review business isn't the Pure Evil that most who ..."

I agree with Dale. The whole thing makes little sense.

Amazon is in the business (in our case) of selling books. They help us by providing what literally are free Kindle and paperback publication services (KDP and CreateSpace, respectively). Imagine, even if you don't want to release a book to the public but, say, simply want to 'publish' 20 copies of a book (e.g., memoir) for your friends and relatives, you can do so by submitting your manuscript to CreateSpace four times and ordering five proofs on each go-around at a price significantly lower than what that order would cost to print, for example, at Sir Speedy . . . hundreds of dollars lower.

As far as KDP is concerned, it might cost you hundreds of dollars to have a manuscript converted to mobi by a commercial digital conversion house whereas it's done in two minutes by submitting your Word document to the KDP site--FREE. And you get to proof it online in three different Kindle formats. Plus, if you're going to release the book within 90 days, you can put the book on pre-release, on Amazon.com, immediately.

So, it makes no sense for Amazon to purposely go out of their way to inhibit indie sales. That some are being caught up in sweeps of searches for abuses is an "unintended consequence," and we only can hope their bots or whatever is behind these actions are "fine tuned" at the earliest possible time.

Finally, I would tell you something my father told me many (MANY!) years ago: you don't have to like someone to make money with them. Amazon, for all its faults, has much to offer the indie community. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Ted

I agree- That's why I'm keeping the Kindle but getting rid of the KU.

Even Facebook is clamping down:

Facebook said it will demote posts that beg for likes or comments
The so-called "engagement bait" posts come with simple requests

— "Tag a friend who needs this!"
— in an effort to rack up engagement and game the Facebook algorithm.
Facebook said the posts are counter to the company's emphasis on authenticity, and so, starting this week, they'll be pushed lower in users' feeds.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/18/faceb...

Theodore wrote: "That some are being caught up in sweeps of searches for abuses is an "unintended consequence," and we only can hope their bots or whatever is behind these actions are "fine tuned" at the earliest possible time. ... Amazon, for all its faults, has much to offer the indie community. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. "

Agreed on both counts. Probably the worst part of this is that they seem to show about zero interest in fixing the problem, or even in acknowledging that a problem exists. They may well be at work on it behind the scenes, but an acknowledgement might help quell some of the complaints.

Denise wrote: "To me, it doesn't matter if it is unintended or not. ..."

Oh, I understand. I just think having some sense of what's actually going on gives one a better chance of dealing with it. If Amazon's automated review deletion process stinks, maybe one can discern what triggers it and in some measure avoid getting caught. If it's "Amazon hates indies" that suggests a rather different strategy. ;-)

I have issues with companies that grow so big as well. There are some virtues in economies of scale, but power corrupts.

We (One Voice Press/Serpent Cliff) sell our books through our own websites, B&N (print & Nook editions), Amazon (Kindle editions only), and a couple of specialty distributors. We also get a reasonable amount of income by selling books to their authors, but we give them the wholesale price and never require them to buy anything. (They also get a few free copies at the outset.) So far we haven't made any money at it, but we've been close to breakeven over the past couple of years now. We don't do print on demand, though, because we want to deal with stores and distributors that don't accept print on demand titles.

I'm hoping I can apply some of what I learn from this wonderful group to marketing our titles, although we may not be in operation that much longer. It's not clear yet whether my wife will be able to commit to all that work, and she's the only editor I know who will work for room and board . . . in my room. ;-)

Dale wrote: "Theodore wrote: "That some are being caught up in sweeps of searches for abuses is an "unintended consequence," and we only can hope their bots or whatever is behind these actions are "fine tuned" ..."

An acknowledgement would leave them open to legal liability. The word in the business world is: never admit to anything. Period. PERIOD!

Carole wrote: "Nope, not a wink. It's those damn squirrels. I've named them Amazon, KDP, and Kindle. They kept me up all night.

It's not as if this is sudden. I have built a huge list (now useless) of reviewers..."
Carole, thank you so much for this sound advice, as always

No problem, Judy. We are all family here.

It feels like they are shooting for a certain profile. Many people I know have been shut down, while others who review things, perhaps that Amazon wants to be reviewed and pushed upward are allowed. I don't think Amazon hates indies, I don't think Amazon values us. There are too many and they don't need to care. They were warned about two years ago that the traditional pub houses were getting angry they were allowing indies to populate the good rankings. It took them about a year, but this is an elimination. They are eliminating the most viable methods for us to promote. The top ranks are populated- well, go look- you'll see. They need content that they can give away for free while the big guys and Amazon publishing clean up. How come no one sees a conflict of interest that they are selling books published by themselves. Does no one see the correlation of their place in the rankings vs other indies? Many of our books spent years in the top 50 and sold well. They tanked about eight months ago. I scrambled by doing everything I could. What I didn't realize- it wasn't us- it's them.

Yup. Most the books in the top spot are Amazon imprints. I wrote an article yesterday about all of this and my point was what Denise said above. It doesn’t matter how big their store is, if we’re invisible in it. Starting Feb we’re selling ebooks from the magazine site. 100% royalties direct to author. To ensure this you’d need to create a paypal button code and submit when submitting your books. This way even we aren’t the middle man. Indies need a break off the roller coaster ride for a while

That was the initial plan so the 100% will be for 4 months so indies can try and gain as many sales and we can build up the store. After that we will Segway into a 90/10 split. Great minds Alex!

Only just seen this thread.

I've just spoke to my cool, calm, incisive, accountant husband. In one word he summed up the fact that it's the algorithms. This has been said further up this thread. Let's hope the programmers sort this out to everyone's satisfaction.

But there's a lot of truth in some of the other threads too!

And I've had a review removed too - a much treasured review from someone whose books I have never reviewed, so it can't be the removal of review swaps.

Lol I won’t go that far but at least if authors point readers to a place where they will get ALL their money and not be hidden I think they have a shot at maybe being able to pay some bills at the least.

Theodore wrote: "An acknowledgement would leave them open to legal liability. The word in the business world is: never admit to anything."

I know, but . . . what legal liability? If they don't claim ownership of the reviews posted on their site (which they might), they certain have language in their agreements (which we agree to by using their site, whether we've read them or not) that allows them to remove whatever they want to remove. There likely isn't any reasonable legal action anybody could take to protest reviews being removed. Meanwhile, the ill-will they cause by blowing off readers and writers instead of at least explaining what's going on may do them some damage.

Denise wrote: "I'm sure this will become somewhat of a trend with reviewers. If their reviews are being deleted from Amazon, they're not going to bother reviewing."

Yep, entirely possible.

Carole wrote: "It feels like they are shooting for a certain profile. Many people I know have been shut down, while others who review things, perhaps that Amazon wants to be reviewed and pushed upward are allowed..."

It's certainly possible that outside pressure from publishers has led them to shift how they look for and remove "fake" reviews. It's also possible that their mechanisms tend to generate more false positives on indie titles than others, even if unintentionally. But I guess I'm a bit skeptical that this is really anything more than overzealous algorithms because from what I've found similar things have happened in the past, at least as long ago as five years back.

That doesn't mean you're wrong, of course. You have a lot more experience in this than I do. I've been struggling to get 10 reviews each for my two books. Whatever the reason, they probably don't touch me simply because I'm such a small fish. ;-)

As an aside I posted a review on Amazon for an item I bought off eBay that Amazon also sells. Amazon accepted my review although there will be no record of me having bought it from them. So why the issue about paying for books before reviewing them?

Dale wrote: "Theodore wrote: "An acknowledgement would leave them open to legal liability. The word in the business world is: never admit to anything."

I know, but . . . what legal liability? If they don't cla..."

I'm simply asserting that to admit any wrongdoing or error on their part (e.g., problems with their software to identify manipulators) would be to invite an investigation by one or more states' attorneys generals into their business practices regarding, say, the manipulation of ranking and other data, for whatever purpose might be impuned by purchasers. Say someone purchases a book with an artificially high ranking because other books in that category have had their rankings lowered or eliminated. And the book is found to be a real dud by a large number of readers. If it becomes known that Amazon manipulated the rank, in any way and for any reason, it could (emphasis on could) lead to legal problems.

That said, you do retain the rights to your reviews:

From The Conditions of Use:

REVIEWS, COMMENTS, COMMUNICATIONS, AND OTHER CONTENT

Visitors may post reviews, comments, photos, videos, and other content; send e-cards and other communications; and submit suggestions, ideas, comments, questions, or other information, so long as the content is not illegal, obscene, threatening, defamatory, invasive of privacy, infringing of intellectual property rights (including publicity rights), or otherwise injurious to third parties or objectionable, and does not consist of or contain software viruses, political campaigning, commercial solicitation, chain letters, mass mailings, or any form of "spam" or unsolicited commercial electronic messages. You may not use a false e-mail address, impersonate any person or entity, or otherwise mislead as to the origin of a card or other content. Amazon reserves the right (but not the obligation) to remove or edit such content, but does not regularly review posted content.

If you do post content or submit material, and unless we indicate otherwise, you grant Amazon a nonexclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, and fully sublicensable right to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, perform, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, and display such content throughout the world in any media. You grant Amazon and sublicensees the right to use the name that you submit in connection with such content, if they choose. You represent and warrant that you own or otherwise control all of the rights to the content that you post; that the content is accurate; that use of the content you supply does not violate this policy and will not cause injury to any person or entity; and that you will indemnify Amazon for all claims resulting from content you supply. Amazon has the right but not the obligation to monitor and edit or remove any activity or content. [Emphasis added] Amazon takes no responsibility and assumes no liability for any content posted by you or any third party.

Copyright and property Rights remain yours when you submit reviews, comments, communications and other content.

Go and read the fake reviews posted for Origin and Artemis. Now I know how to read a review and the fakes are obvious- just as the professional reviewers who make it a book report are obvious too. We were talking about it in the office. I read The Cuban Affair last weekend- how any trad publisher let these books go out is unfathomable. Yet, the gushing reviews overwhelm the truthful ones. Those are nothing more than fan mail. Anyone who read the book will tell you so. I loved Brown, Weir, and Demille- looked forward to their books- like cleared my schedule for them and I realized they are going to need all the help they can get to sell them. How about stepping on the backs of the indies by removing the chances that one of them will do better. The trad publishers, who pay Zon for real estate will be held accountable. Sure, take advantage of the guys who have no voice. I wonder how many of their reviews disappear compared to ours.

I get invitations to review items every day- I drew the line and stopped reviewing when they offered to pay me or refund the money- Yet, I see established, top Amazon reviewers reviewing the item.

Theodore wrote: "I'm simply asserting that to admit any wrongdoing or error on their part (e.g., problems with their software to identify manipulators) would be to invite an investigation by one or more states' attorneys generals into their business practices regarding, say, the manipulation of ranking and other data, for whatever purpose might be impuned by purchasers. "

Maybe. I'm admittedly not a lawyer, but I'm not entirely sure there would be anything illegal in that. Unethical, perhaps, but illegal?

As for rights to reviews, I would have expected that, just didn't know, since there have been cases of sites claiming to own content posted on them (although I think that practice has pretty much been shot down by now).

It's arbitrary and calculated. Sorry, I'm over it. Please don't think I'm mad. (To our friends from Europe that's pissed, not crazy).

I am working on a way to move through it. I am angry at myself because I thought they wouldn't to it to me- because I respected and followed their rules. I'm annoyed because I was not prepared and lost many of MY reviews. I enjoyed them. I liked to reread them- it was like visiting the book again. They destroyed my property. I copied my reviews all weekend - what I had on Goodreads- It equaled

259 Pages
Words 95583
Characters 551438
Characters excluding spaces 457383

That is five years worth of reviews and I had more on Amazon. It was a part of my history and made me feel as though I was witnessing Fahrenheit 451. They didn't give me a warning to protect my...words.
I'm angry because I thought it couldn't happen to me and now I wonder- what else could happen to me?

Dale wrote: "Theodore wrote: "I'm simply asserting that to admit any wrongdoing or error on their part (e.g., problems with their software to identify manipulators) would be to invite an investigation by one or..."

Ranking manipulation would be difficult to prove, for sure.

On a related note, I have no doubt that fans of main-stream authors, regardless of genre, are more than eager to post their reviews as soon as a new book is issued. They are virtually a cult unto themselves, and their posts are their self-proclaimed "handshakes" into the Clubs of the Anointed.

Carole wrote: "It's arbitrary and calculated. Sorry, I'm over it. Please don't think I'm mad. (To our friends from Europe that's pissed, not crazy).

I am working on a way to move through it. I am angry at myself..."

Wow! That's unbelievable, Carole. I'm sure it's devastating, on many levels. I'm so sorry.

Yup!! While I love the authors I mentioned, I wouldn't leave a review and that might influence someone not to buy the book- everyone can have a bad "day." It won't stop me from buying their next book. and I don't want to be the reason it stopped someone else-

Theodore wrote: "Carole wrote: "It's arbitrary and calculated. Sorry, I'm over it. Please don't think I'm mad. (To our friends from Europe that's pissed, not crazy).

I am working on a way to move through it. I am ..."

The first time they made them all disappear- they said it was a glitch. I got crazy- I never thought they wouldn't restore them They did after a few days- But I got lazy. I should have copied all the reviews then. I just never thought they'd do that to me. Just stupidity on my part.

Carole wrote: "Theodore wrote: "Carole wrote: "It's arbitrary and calculated. Sorry, I'm over it. Please don't think I'm mad. (To our friends from Europe that's pissed, not crazy).

I am working on a way to move ..."

I found one of your reviews still up for one of my books.

Carole P. Roman reviewed Wheel of Fortune (Detective Louis Martelli, NYPD, Mystery/Thriller Series Book 6)

Wow. Should we tell them they missed one? lol

It must be a glitch- it says on my personal page I have no reviews posted.

As far as the books I handle, they haven't grown in reviews for over a year. Despite having new reviews put up there, the next day five more are taken away. We get five steps ahead and then by the time they finish, we are ten steps backward.

Carole wrote: "Wow. Should we tell them they missed one? lol

It must be a glitch- it says on my personal page I have no reviews posted.

As far as the books I handle, they haven't grown in reviews for over a yea..."

Something's not right. I wonder if you got a lawyer to file a "John Doe" lawsuit, seeking the name(s) and contact information of party or parties who took action(s) with the intent of depriving you of revenue (given these removals impact on your sales and income). It's possible that there is one or more persons behind this who created this situation for personal reasons, and Amazon is the unwitting accomplice. It wouldn't be the first time that a corporation has become the unwilling dupe in situations such as these.

Nah. I don't do lawsuits. Hate 'em. I'm not mad at them so much as mad at myself for not expecting it. A door closed- we gotta find a new exit. A better one.

I'm still waiting for them to get back to me- but I think the problem here is that they've connected us all and my brand of author support doesn't jive with theirs.

Carole wrote: "Nah. I don't do lawsuits. Hate 'em. I'm not mad at them so much as mad at myself for not expecting it. A door closed- we gotta find a new exit. A better one.

I'm still waiting for them to get back..."

This still makes no sense at all. Amazon, through Goodreads, encourages Groups, Giveaways, Reviews, etc., etc...everything that contributes to a sense of community with the intent of selling books on their site. And yet, when robust groups spring up as a result of the platforms they themselves create, they punish the very people that have made their brands so popular. It simply defies logic...like living in a parallel universe where up is down, and everything this company does through the links it fosters now condemns you to death.