SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

LOTR is to Fantasy as ??? is to Science Fiction.

My answer is Dune

Certainly a strong candidate. Might also go for:

Stranger in a Strange Land or

Hothouse (might be too short) or possibly

Ringworld and its sequels considered as one work.

Either Dune or Ender's Game.

The Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe.

I'd vote for The Sentinel AKA "2001: A Space Odyssey."

Much as I adore the Dune trilogy, I'd have to go with either the Ringworld books(all of them) or the Foundation Trilogy(just the original 3).

My vote goes to Dune.

Most definatly Ender's Game in my opinion.

I love Ender's Game, but as I've reread it as an adult, it doesn't compare to the complexity of Dune, if you're looking for a comparison with LOTR.

So, my vote goes to Dune.

I would consider all those mention (except 2001 and Foundation) contenders, they are all series I read over and over.

I just did not like 2001, perhaps because it was one of the few SF I have seen before reading. Foundation is a favorite, but, IMO, lacks the depth of characters and complexity the others have.

hm.. Sentimental favorite Dune, but I don't think this is the correct pick. There are too many flaws here, I mean it's a little sexist and bigoted (for example the treatment of homosexuals). Don't get me wrong, it's one of the best books of all times in my opinion, but THE genre defining sci fi book? It would probably have to be Asimov's Foundation series. I mean when people think of Fantasy, they think of Epic Fantasy, which LOTR is the first example of, and when they think of Sci-fi, they think of space opera, which the foundation series is the first example of.

Actually, people like E E 'Doc' Smith and John Campbell were writing space opera before Asimov started Foundation.

First example of epic fantasy? Homer.

Paul wrote: "Actually, people like E E 'Doc' Smith and John Campbell were writing space opera before Asimov started Foundation.

First example of epic fantasy? Homer."

I totally agree!

I'd vote for Rendezvous with Rama (& the whole Rama Series by Clarke) as the best in sci fi. First contact with alien life is one of my favorite themes to read and this is a great example IMO.

I also thought 2001 was great, as was Dune and Ender's Game, but the Rama series is the best I've read so far.

The first Rama book was indeed a treat.

Interesting that Homer is viewed--by various communities--as history, religion, fantasy, and fiction.

Pickle wrote: "when they think of Sci-fi, they think of space opera, which the foundation series is the first example of. "

The Foundation series as Space Opera? Good God no.

Ron wrote: "Interesting that Homer is viewed--by various communities--as history, religion, fantasy, and fiction."

There are those who would claim the Bible as a work of fiction, and not a very well written one at that. Dave Duncan's Great Game series was essentially that, only in reverse - people from Earth go to another universe where they acquire power and pose as gods.

Marc wrote: "The Foundation series as Space Opera? Good God no.

When the term 'space opera' is used, I think it needs defining. It has so many meanings as to be almost meaningless. Foundation is certainly space opera in the "the good old stuff": adventure stories set in space." sense promulgated by Brian Aldiss back in the '70s.

But most of the stories in the foundation books aren't adventure stories. There people sitting around in a room talking.

One of the problems that modern readers have is that we keep trying to reclassify different kinds of fiction into a comfortable little box to suit our own tastes. Truth is Foundation has and always will be considered Space Opera. Since the creation of Star Wars and Star Trek the term 'space opera' has gotten a negative connotation.

Foundation fits the classical and modern definition of space opera. Let's see:

1. space ships? check
2. epic scale? check
3. political intrigue based around some astropolitical government? check
4. exotic worlds? check
5. galactic warfare? check
6. human colonization of space? check

By this standard alone, Foundation falls under the category of Space Opera. There's no need to even go through the rest of the checklist. I think too many people are confusing quality SF with Hard SF. A book need not fall under the category of Hard SF for it to be quality SF or SF for that matter. Hence, just because a SF is considered a space opera does not imply that it isn't as good, if not superior to its Hard SF counterpart. Few will deny that Foundation is one of the greatest works of SF. It just happens to be space opera. Since when was that a bad thing?

When originally coined (I forget when and by whom - but in the '50s or '60s) it was a pejorative term and referred to BAD, poorly written, melodramatic science fiction, relating to soap operas on TV.

I tend to use it for an read it as meaning old style epic SF or for non-hard SF. Many will not agree, but that it my reflex understanding when someone uses the phrase.

Hyperion by Dan Simmons.
Any Known Space story by Larry Niven.
The entire Robots series and Foundation series by Asimov.
Dune
The City of Gold and Lead by John Christopher
The Past Through Tomorrow collection of stories by Heinlein.
Accelerando by Charles Stross

There's just too much good stuff out there to pick just one. Good sci-fi is like a Lay's potato chip, you can't have just ONE.

Thirteen by Richard K. Morgan. This is a fantastic book, with action, and a dark violent view of the future.

Ummm. . . anybody want to put a female author out there? Just for forms' sake? Maybe Octavia E. Butler, C. J. Cherryh, or Ursula K. Le Guin?

OK, cutting the snark. . . but seriously, DO any of you view their work as formative to the field? I know I do, but I definitely keep my eye on gender politics, so maybe that's just me. . .

Of course, one of the issues here is that there weren't that many women writing in the time period people consider the Golden Age of Science Fiction, which is where these titles mostly appear to be drawn from. . . The other issue is that no one book can be everything to a genre (much though LOTR fans want it to be the beginning and the end of fantasy, I'd point to quite a few other authors as equal with Tolkien), so you can make a case for the authors I mentioned plus several of the authors mentioned above as all really shaping the field. . .

Surprised nobody's mentioned Ray Bradbury yet either. And if you're looking at more modern SF, there's always Philip K. Dick. ;)

Fact is, there never was a single work that jump-started the SF field the way LOTR did modern fantasy. It just didn't happen that way. You might credit, say, Hugo Gernsback and John W. Campbell between them, but as magazine editors and publishers, each of whom published many fine writers. SF, perhaps fittingly, has always been a constellation.

Margaret wrote: "SF, perhaps fittingly, has always been a constellation. "

Very nicely said!

I am not sure how I'd answer the original question. Some of my faves - for example, the works of Roger Zelazny - contributed much to speculative fiction as a whole, (It's often hard to pigeonhole R.Z. as strictly SF or Fantasy.) but they were/are not necessarily sitting on a throne presiding over the rest of the field as obviously somehow above or beyond their peers. If I absolutely had to answer succinctly, I would probably opt for Dune, as well...but I suspect that would be more a personal bias than any scientific result of a serious examination of the history of the field.

In response to Phoenixfalls: I strongly believe Ursula K. Le Guin belongs right up there on the podium as one of the Essential Greats - regardless of gender. Her work is at the apex of social SF. I think Margaret is correct; it may be impossible to actually crown one SF book or author as THE Best. Perhaps the best we can each do is to compile a personal pantheon...

It is really hard to pick just one. There was good fantasy written before LOTR; but the publishing of LOTR in paperback and its wide distribution in the 1960's definitely kicked off a publishing boom in Fantasy. We got a lot of Fantasy trilogies; some very bad, some average, a few great new authors.

By comparison, there is no one book or trilogy that did the same for SF. There is a lot of good SF out there, and many books could be proposed a number one.

My personal contenders for the top spots (plural) are:

Isaac Asimov's Robot stories, both books and short stories.
Frank Herber't Dune--the first book is the best.
The early works of Robert A Heinlein, especially his juveniles.
C. J. Cherryh's Downbelow Station and the other books in that series.
And many others.

I second that emotion. "Book of the New Sun is awesome.

There is no doubt in my mind. Dune is the best sci fi book I have ever read.

Definitely Dune. Nothing even comes close, IMO. I have to agree that there are many great sci-fi authors out there, but Dune will remain the #1 book for me. I've read other things by Frank Herbert and they weren't all that good, I'm sorry to say. Dune was obviously his master stroke of genius.
Now if the question was 'Who's the greatest sci fi author?', I'd be hard put to come up with just one author.

I have a couple of other candidates:

Pavane and City

Both awesome books, though more a series of related stories than an actual novel.

Jackie, I liked a lot of Herbert's stuff - Hellstrom's Hive, The Santaroga Barrier and so on, but Dune, IMO, was definitely his best.

Paul, did you read Herbert's The White Plague? It sucked. Some parts were brilliant but overall, it was disappointing.

Oh, yes Jackie. That was truly bad. Such a comedown after the good stuff. Think The Green Brain and The Dosadi Experiment as him at his best, and ignore all the later overblown wafflings...

I have Dosadi. Trying to find Whipping Star so I can read them together.

I love the constellation comment, and I totally agree.

I'd also go with Dune, Ringworld, Childhood's End, 1984, Stranger in a Strange Land, Ender's Game, I Robot, Martian Chronicles, and Foundation.

Sorry to all the Dune fans, but I think it's highly over-rated. My choice goes to either Stranger or Ender's Game. But even with that, it's such a difficult thing to decide what the best Science Fiction book EVER is. My word, there are so many, and so many different styles. I would even put Callahan's Cross-Time Saloon in that category. And people's taste is such a criterion in the pick. I mean...look at all the people that love Dune. They aren't wrong when they say that Dune is the best book, because to them, it is. Everybody leans toward something different. Oh, and Fahrenheit 451. That was a great one, too.

Best author? I can't pick one. Bradbury, Heinlein, Asimov, Spider Robinson, Clarke, too many.

Gotta say I can't think of one novel/series that did for SF what LOTR did for fantasy. Is that because so much of the early stuff started out in magazines?

An interesting tidbit: a literature course I took in college called Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein" the first science fiction novel.

I will say that when someone says to me "science fiction" what immediately comes to mind is Asimov.

I never really considered Frankenstein Science Fiction. I guess it does deal with science, but we always seem to think of space travel and stuff like that when we talk about Science Fiction. Frankenstein is more horror to me. I agree that Asimov is one of the first names that pops into my brain, too.

Back when Frankenstein was written the science in it was cutting edge. The book had more to do with the limitations of science than celebrating its possibilities, which to most people is the essence of SF.

I've never thought of "Frankenstein" as science fiction, which is probably why that's the tidbit that stuck with me from that class.

See, I read Enders Game when I was in High School and it just wasn't very memorable, but Dune stuck with me. Hyperion is still one of my favorites, though; it just has more emotional impact to go with the sci-fi plot.

The problem with all of these choices is that they came too late. Even Ursula K. is too "new" to have influenced the genre like Lord of the Rings touched Fantasy. I think we need to decide on criteria if this is going to go anywhere. The best SF book need not necessarily be the most influential.

It's too subjective. There will never be an agreement on what is the "best" Science Fiction book, because it can't be discussed outside of personal preference. Criteria is pretty irrelevant. You can throw all the criteria you want at me, I will never agree that Dune is the best Science Fiction book of all time. Actually, I don't think that "creature" exists. Nevertheless, it's fun to discuss what our favorites are, and that's pretty much all it can be.

If we speak strictly in terms of volumes sold, it appears that 1984 would win if we consider it Science Fiction. If not, then Hitchhiker's Guide probably wins, selling a couple million more copies than Dune.

As Jeff says, the best book is to too subjective. We should rather look to which book and authors that have been influential to readers and authors. What books has given new life to both Science fiction and Fantasy genre.

Science fiction has two candidates that have been an influence and contributor to the genre, Dan Simmons, Hyperion and Isaac Asimov’s, Foundation.

Fantasy with Stephen R. Donaldson, "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever" and Steven Erikson. Both authors brought an”reality" into the genre, that in my opinion has revitalized Fantasy and influenced authors today.

My favorite, based solely on the number of times I'd re-read it, is "The Door Into Summer". 1984 is the close next.

Dune I'd read once, and enjoyed, but have no desire to revisit.

I agree, difficult to nail down "best". Does that mean most influential? Best technically? Best selling? Most wide-spread appeal? I think you could come up with a different book for each of those "best"s ; )

Asimov's three robotic laws (I think first delineated in I, Robot) may be the most influential concept in the genre. That concept is pervasive throughout the scifi landscape.

I have to admit, I'm surprised to see Hyperion mentioned here at all. I didn't find it groundbreaking in any way.

Headmaster wrote: "As Jeff says, the best book is to too subjective. We should rather look to which book and authors that have been influential to readers and authors. "

Surely Jules Verne belongs in the influence category. I'm surprised he's not been mentioned before this. Between his stories and Frankenstein you'll find most of the themes everyone else re-used for many years.

I'm tempted to say A Wrinkle in Time, purely out of nostalgia.

I'd vote for I, Robot] as its themes and concepts were brilliant and as a result frequently borrowed. I also include Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C Clarke.

Dune and/or Dahlgren and/or Stranger in a Strange Land