Space Opera Fans discussion

Our READER Pick for February 2018 is Dune by Frank Herbert. Since this is a lengthy, detailed novel I'm opening the discussion early. Please use this thread to post questions, comments, and reviews, at any time.

Book description (well one of them):
Here is the novel that will be forever considered a triumph of the imagination. Set on the desert planet Arrakis, Dune is the story of the boy Paul Atreides, who would become the mysterious man known as Muad'Dib. He would avenge the traitorous plot against his noble family—and would bring to fruition humankind's most ancient and unattainable dream.

A stunning blend of adventure and mysticism, environmentalism and politics, Dune won the first Nebula Award, shared the Hugo Award, and formed the basis of what it undoubtedly the grandest epic in science fiction.

I have read Dune many times, and was greatly impressed by the detailed world building. The movie didn't do it justice. I look forward to the discussion, and perhaps sharing of favorite quotes.

My favorite quote:
Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

The Litany Against Fear is a classic quote, that I would encourage every fan to memorize, even non-fans :)

I have been reading The Great Dune Trilogy since a few months back, and it's become easily my favourite book. Dune has so many great themes, mysticism, phylosophy, ecology, politics, spiritualism... and of course, human nature.

I have several favourite quotes, but I guess one of the most marking ones was: "The day the flesh shapes, and the flesh the day shapes". Especialy because of its context.

This is my first time participating in a book of the month discussion, so please let me know how it works. Since I have read Dune itself, I don't want to give any spoilers away.

We try to avoid spoilers. There's a way to mark a section as a spoiler so the people can choose whether to click to open it or not, but I would need to look up how.

Since this is such a classic I imagine there are few people here who haven't either read it or seen the movie, so we won't quibble about spoilers.

I have read this twice, but a few decades have passed since my last read. Recently I have started to read all 20 Dune books in chronological order. I still have 4 books to read before I get to Dune. Navigators of Dune, House Atreides, House Harkonnen, and House Corrino.

How to do a spoiler:
From my browser, I can surround the words that are a spoiler with HTML type spoiler tags. If I click "some html is ok" that is one of the choices. There isn't any way to select the text then click something to format it, you have to type the "<" then the word spoiler then ">", etc.

(view spoiler)[I'm a spoiler. (hide spoiler)]

I haven't tried doing it from the Goodreads app. There's no "some html is ok" there but it may work anyway.

Teresa wrote: "How to do a spoiler:
From my browser, I can surround the words that are a spoiler with HTML type spoiler tags. If I click "some html is ok" that is one of the choices. There isn't any way to select..."

Thank you! I will use it when the need arises.

And oh look, my spoiler tag above that works in my browser just says "[spoilers" without anything to tap to see the spoiler from the Goodreads app.

Another good quote:
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

I am a fan of Dune and read this book several times. I am currently on book five, I believe. I also read one of the pre-trilogies.

I adored Dune. I remember reading Dune Messiah and Children of Dune when they came out, but was disappointed with them in comparison to the first. I don't think I bothered reading any of the others.

It's rather understandable since a very large part of my enjoyment of the book was the world building. Sequels rarely add significant amounts of that. When it's a book where I fall in love with the characters, the sequels are sometimes even better as the relationships deepen or they simply go on other adventures.

God Emperor of Dune is the one I dropped off after. So, I'm on book five. My plan is to finish Chronicles of Amber, then finish off Dune original series. I think the series gets quite philosophical and, while I find that interesting, Leto becomes so alien in his thinking, it's hard to be drawn in.

This was my first read of any book in the Dune series. I'm currently in the middle of Children of Dune, and I can't say that I was disappointed with any of the sequels so far. There were aspects that didn't draw me in as much, but Herbert's storytelling skills are still present.
I think that at least Dune and Dune Messiah seem very much planned from the start. Children of Dune, however, I think was an afterthought by Herbert. The introduction of some new elements (view spoiler)[(like Jacurutu) (hide spoiler)], and other story incongruencies (view spoiler)[ such as the inner voices within Alia, Ghanima and Leto (hide spoiler)] kind of threw me off, but I cannot let go of this world. It draws me in everytime, and if I go back to reading it after a few days I always wonder why I didn't do so sooner.

I love the "history" and other writings at the start of each chapter. They provide ample food for thought on their own, and they help to contextualize the chapter and the story itself.

Do you think of either Paul or Leto II as the Kwisatz Haderach? They are both amazingly powerful and influential in the universe, but I don't know that I do. We will never know what that person would have been like because Jessica upended the plan at the last stage.

Brandon wrote: "Do you think of either Paul or Leto II as the Kwisatz Haderach? They are both amazingly powerful and influential in the universe, but I don't know that I do. We will never know what that person would have been like because Jessica upended the plan at the last stage. "

(view spoiler)[As I understand it they both were. And the last incarnation of Duncan Idaho. (hide spoiler)]

Wikipedia says Dune was originally published as two separate serials in Analog. As I have been rereading it, I suspected this and thought that I had read it there originally but the dates don't match up. That is, the publication date for Dune is several years before I first discovered Analog.

I do distinctly recall reading a spoof of Dune in Analog though. I wonder if that was the same issue that had the spoof of Tactics of Mistake? (Kelvin Throop spoof issue?) Edit: doesn't appear so according to this http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?5...

Teresa wrote: "Wikipedia says Dune was originally published as two separate serials in Analog. As I have been rereading it, I suspected this and thought that I had read it there originally but the dates don't mat..."

I think Herbert mentions that in this interview. I recommend everyone who has alredy read it and is invested in the series (it does have spoilers) to hear it.

The following is from Wikipedia. I might have found some of this information in A Requiem for Astounding but it would have taken longer.

Herbert spent the next five years researching, writing, and revising. He published a three-part serial Dune World in the monthly Analog, from December 1963 to February 1964. The serial was accompanied by several illustrations that were not published again. After an interval of a year, he published the much slower-paced five-part The Prophet of Dune in the January – May 1965 issues. (The first serial became part one of the volume, and the second was divided into parts two and three.) The serialized version was expanded, reworked, and submitted to more than twenty publishers, each of whom rejected it. The novel, Dune, was finally accepted and published in August 1965 by Chilton Books, a printing house better known for publishing auto repair manuals.

I loved Dune, and I read it several times, but it's been many years since my last reading. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to get around to re-reading it this month.

Like Theresa, I read the first two sequels but was not impressed, so I didn't bother with any of the other sequels or prequels. They seemed to me to be afterthoughts, no where near the creativity and complexity of the original. It was as though Herbert's fans and publishers couldn't let go and convinced him that they had to have more, but his heart wasn't in it. Which is understandable. One rarely achieves that kind of perfection more than once in his life.

No, I don't think Dune was perfect, but it was a very important book. Wikipedia says it is the most read science fiction book ever. It's audience expanded way beyond the existing science fiction community to main stream readers (mostly younger). I also suspect that the increased interest in science fiction engendered by Dune carried over to many other sci-fi books.

It also changed science fiction. For the first time technology was not paramount. And the complexity of the world building became a model that was aspired to but rarely accomplished. Plus it included topics, like mysticism, religion, drug use, and ecology, that hadn't previously been much covered. It in effect expanded the science fiction lexicon.

And it strongly influenced an entire generation. I was part of that generation. I remember.

I found the spoof! It was in Asimov's not Analog.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cg...

The Return of the Cousins of the Dune Preacher's Mistress
By Jack Gaughan

And I have now finished my reread. Still worth rereading, doesn't seem dated at all. Of course the backstory prohibiting machine computers helps there, plus the fact it is so very far in the future.

But I have no inclination to read the other books.

that issue of Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine is on archive.org

I really enjoy Dune and it's helped to craft my own writing style. What strikes me is that Frank Herbert really "got" his own world and wrote confidently. If the reader could keep up, good on them, but if not they're left behind. I recall once reading a "cliff notes" summary of the book where the complexity of the interactions and relationships becomes so entangled that they basically gave up trying to summarize it. It was the dinner scene when all of the power players of arrakis are meeting the duke. It was something like... "there's so much explained and unexplained subtext going on in this scene that it's hard to find the cogent threads." I laughed out loud at that.

C. John wrote: "The following is from Wikipedia. I might have found some of this information in A Requiem for Astounding but it would have taken longer.

Herbert spen..."

That is amazing. I'll bet whoever owns Chilton remains super happy. The money made off that book alone could sustain a company.

I read the book long ago and thought now would be a perfect opportunity to do so again. Then, I couldn't find my copy. Went to the library and they were all checked out. Went to another one, and the same issue (apparently this group creates a run on books at the library).

I didn't want to purchase another copy so I kept looking and asking around. Today my hold comes in from one of the libraries and I picked it up. Whew. Talk about cutting it close.

Then ... two minutes ago ... I find my copy. Oy vey!

Don wrote: "I read the book long ago and thought now would be a perfect opportunity to do so again. Then, I couldn't find my copy. Went to the library and they were all checked out. Went to another one, and th..."

HA - doesn't that happen to everyone unfortunately?

The last time I read Dune was probably about 30 years ago or so. I still have my copy - yay! A little dusty and yellowed, but still readable.

As I remember it, I was following the series until Heretics of Dune, at which point I gave up. The first thing I noticed in re-reading Dune is that Paul is only 15 years old. Somehow I had forgotten that. It will be interesting to go through this again.

Well developed characters with great world building. I wish authors of some of the newer books I have read took the time in these respects.

Agreed. Outstanding world building.

Audrey wrote: "Well developed characters with great world building. I wish authors of some of the newer books I have read took the time in these respects."

Its been years since I read it but yeah, that is one thing that sticks with me. Make that two things.

I 100% agree. However, it can be a tricky balance as so many people these days do not want to 'sit though' great world building. Their attention spans are too short. I suspect this is why newer books do not go into as much detail.

I don't know. The honorverse has some pretty complex world building. Otoh, it's not as alien as Dune.

L.E. wrote: "Audrey wrote: "Well developed characters with great world building. I wish authors of some of the newer books I have read took the time in these respects."

Its been years since I read it but yeah,..."

I don't agree that's because people nowadays don't like world-building... Most books nowadays seem shallow in comparison, yes, but I just think that's because there are few authors who can actually do it right.

IMO books that start with nothing but world building are boring and I quit reading. I have to have a POV character that I care about in the first ten pages or so. Dune does an excellent job of combining both of these at the start, and not drowning the reader this too many consecutive paragraphs of world building. I for one need either some action or some character building of a character that I care about.

But then I give up on a heckuva lot of books because they spend too much time on characters that I don't like.

We also have to keep in mind that back in the 60s and earlier there were a lot fewer SF novels published than currently. More shorter works, more magazines than now, unless you want to include fanfic. And the worst of the stuff published back then is now out of print, so what we see has a higher ratio of the good stuff. I do recall reading some books in the 70s that were rubbish, but I was desperate for any SF at all.

Teresa wrote: "IMO books that start with nothing but world building are boring and I quit reading. I have to have a POV character that I care about in the first ten pages or so. Dune does an excellent job of comb..."

Exactly, it is a delicate balance and very difficult to get right (which Dune does). I also agree about the selection of SF. Even in the 80's there wasn't as much as now.

But then again it is very also different now with the doors of publishing is open to anyone. It can be good with talented writers that didn't connect with the right editor to get published traditionally. It can also be bad with more "rubbish" out there than ever, making it difficult at times to find the gold in the massive amount of dross.

I can't believe it took me so long to finally read Dune. I've been meaning to for many years, but never got around to it. I was completely missing out! So many great quotes in this book!

Indeed. What also struck me: how faithful the 1984 movie is. Granted there are differences (some larger than others for the sake of trying to fit so much into a movie) but in general it is very faithful even down to the dialogue as you go from one scene to the next.

It has been years since I have seen the movie, or read the book yet never realized how close they were. So many movie scripts totally rewrite the story into something else.

The change that bothered me the most was that the Fremen were given a Weirding Module in the movie instead of just enhancing their desert abilities with Paul and Jessica's Bene Gesserit training. Surely, Lynch could have given us an awesome 80's training montage!

Indeed. I assume that was done to reach a broader appeal. More people like some kind of sci-fi blaster than better training. Lynch won't even talk about the film since he was not given final cut and the film was not as he intended (I did some digging after I posted).

I remember seeing Dune when the movie came out in 1984. I was glad I had read the book, because the movie was a scrambled mess. While much of it was faithful to the book, the movie was very uneven, poorly edited, with some bad acting. I think part (most?) of the problem was that it went through more than one set of directors and edits before it was finally released.

Yes a lot of the discontinuity resulted from the extra edits and filming of additional scenes. Also Lynch did not get the final edit/cut. The rough cut was four hours long, Lynch got it down to three hours. However the producers did further edits which Lynch did not approve of. Universal has tried to get Lynch to do a directors cut, but he wants nothing to do with the film. He even had his name removed from the 1988 TV version.

I read Dune the summer I turned 17. As soon as I finished it, I read it again. The idea of universe in which planets and politics was set up as fiefdoms was rich in possibilities and the characters were so compelling - good, bad, and both good and bad. i then read Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. I reread the threesome probably 4 times in the past 40 years. I obtained the rest of the books, but most were difficult and didn't grab me, although I own them all in hard cover.

My daughter didn't like the book, Dune, but read it. My son was never interested in the book until he saw the 1984 movie. While Lynch had so many problems, what impressed me was how such huge scenes and strange gadgets were created given it was before computers and done mostly with models and the magic of the skilled artisians of the day.

Don wrote: "Indeed. What also struck me: how faithful the 1984 movie is. Granted there are differences (some larger than others for the sake of trying to fit so much into a movie) but in general it is very fai..."

Well, I'm looking forward to the new Dune which will be directed by Denis Villeneuve, who directed Blade Runner 2049. Hopefully, corporate fat cats won't meddle with the director's vision (or Frank's) and allow for a proper adaptation.

So Dune is realllly complicated and hard to access. What pieces do you think could be removed in the new Denis Villeneuve version to make it fit within a theatrical time frame?

Tom wrote: "So Dune is realllly complicated and hard to access. What pieces do you think could be removed in the new Denis Villeneuve version to make it fit within a theatrical time frame?"

I don't think it will ever be a movie that would make me happy. The story is complex and while there is a lot of action, there is also a lot of thought processes that feed into the story.

There was a Dune miniseries, made for TV, that was pretty good in early 2000s. IMHO it was more true to the book plot than the 1984 movie.

I would rather see a really well done 10 hours on Netflix than a film frankly.

Tom wrote: "I would rather see a really well done 10 hours on Netflix than a film frankly."

The mini series was nominated for many awards and won 9 awards. I bought the Children of Dune dvds on Amazon used for a reasonable price. I bought the Dune miniseries used from our local Hastings when it was still in business. Amazon has new and used on blu ray and DVD. I don't know if its on their streaming list to purchase. I think someone uploaded the miniseries and the Lynch film to youtube too. So you might be able to find it to watch at no cost.

I would put it this way - the Lynch movie is interesting; the miniseries was good; the books are awesome.

I remember the mini sometimes felt like I was watching a play. The scenery looked half-finished and many corners seemed to be cut. In short, it was pretty cheaply done. I would say that with the evolution of how TV is produced now, that a mini would be the perfect vehicle. Imagine G of T type production values.

Additionally, for me, a universe like Dune is something I want to live in a while. I want experience it for more then 120 minutes. A film might ultimately be too thin a slice to really feel like you've gotten your fill.

Lizzie wrote: "I would put it this way - the Lynch movie is interesting; the miniseries was good; the books are awesome."

I think we can all agree the book is the best. But then that is always the case. I still like the 1984 better as the newer ones, as mentioned, felt like too many corners were cut. As for them being on Youtube, don't expect that to last. I am sure it will be deleted soon, if not already. I looked a couple of weeks back and didn't find them.

Tom, I agree about wanting to "live in" the Dune universe for a while. You might want to check out the old Dune video games. Dune II is a strategy game and might help with that 'fix'.

Imagination_Hunter wrote: "Don wrote: "Indeed. What also struck me: how faithful the 1984 movie is. Granted there are differences (some larger than others for the sake of trying to fit so much into a movie) but in general it..."

Maybe they'll do Part A, Part B and Part C like they did with the Hobbit. Better that than squeezing and editing to reduce it to 120-150 hours, which is practically impossible in this case.

Tom wrote: "So Dune is realllly complicated and hard to access. What pieces do you think could be removed in the new Denis Villeneuve version to make it fit within a theatrical time frame?"

I wouldn't remove anything. I'd do what Chris suggested: part a, part b, part c etc.