The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the weeks of August 4th - August 10th, we are reading PART ONE - The Situation - The Day of the Scorpion - Book Two of the Raj Quartet.

The eighth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK EIGHT- August 4th - August 10th ~ PART ONE ~ The Situation (266-296)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on June 16th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on August 4th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Jill will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Bentley.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Paul Scott

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how to cite books:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...


Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

by Paul Scott

We do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

NOTE

For those of you who are reading this book on e-books or whose edition has different numbering than that used by the moderator, the last page of this week's assignment ends with the sentence, "Rowan took over".

Chapter Summary and Overview

The interrogation continues as Rowan asks Hari why he was so uncooperative with the police. Hari replies that he was responding naturally to a situation that involved him without an explanation. He tells Rowan that force was used and that Merrick watched it. Also that Merrick would have struck him at the Sanctuary if Sister Ludmilla had not stopped him.

They speak of the night that Hari got drunk with the group of young men mentioned in the official report. They were described as ardent nationalists but Hari states that he imagined that they did nothing but talk about politics and that it was not discussed on the night of the drinking party.

The actions of Merrick on the night of the initial arrest become clearer through Hari's explanation......Merrick says some obscene things about Daphne and states that Hari was involved in the rape. Lady Manners rings Rowan on the telephone and tells him to forget that she is there which would keep him from asking unpleasant questions. She also wants to know if Hari knows that Daphne is dead.

Hari is asked to leave the room and Rowan and Gopal disagree about discussing Merrick's interrogation. Gopal rightly says that the evidence against the Defence of the Realm act was tenuous at best and that this meeting has obviously been arranged by someone interceding.....probably Lady Manners. Rowan does not respond. Gopal says that the evidence of subversion was rigged due to the fact that Daphne's version of the rape would have contradicted any guilt for Hari or the other young men.

Hari comes back in the room and still refuses to say where he was at a certain time on the evening of the assault which puzzles Rowan and Gopal. He does relate that he met with Daphne at the Sanctuary and at Bibighar Gardens and that Daphne had an association with Merrick. And that Merrick created the "situation" of being face to face with Hari with everything in Merrick's favor

Question

I wonder how Lady Manners is coping with this interrogation and how it is affecting her opinion of Hari? Or did we ever knew how she felt about him?

On the way out the door, but wanted to throw this up against the wall. Probably belongs in the glossary thread with the links to Hinduism:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/...

It stuck!!! Going to put this over at the Glossary. Thanks, Martin

I don't know, Jill. LM is a strong woman. Yet, this testimony is uncomfortable to be sure. I think she is determined to steel herself against this discomfort in order to find out the truth about Hari. I feel that she is beginning to appreciate Hari's intelligence.

I would agree, Donna. Hari is presenting himself well to Rowan and Gopal......mature, cooperative, polite without being a toady. I think that Lady M probably had a strong reaction when Merrick's obscene words regarding Daphne were mentioned by Hari, who refused to say what they were. We can probably guess and I imagine so did Lady M.

It is becoming more obvious that Merrick has some real personality problems (probably not a strong enough word) and the stripping and examination of Hari left me disturbed. How better to humiliate him than with that action.

This section, in my warped mind at least, sorta redefines "situation room."

A situation is defined as a moment and place of confrontation where one side is trying to extract as much as possible to gain advantage.

The situation Hari describes occures in the detention facilities of the Raj in his confrontation with the District Superintendent of police. It's interesting that for the most part in this section Merrick is reffered to by his official title, especially by the official interrogators Rowan and Gopal.

But there is a situation within the situation. The exchanges between Gopal and Rowan represent a situation. Each has obviously different objectives in mind. Rowan is taking a narrow tack and argues for a more restricted approach that would result in Hari's continued detention if only for the reason that the hearings are not to consider Hari's release.

Gopal on the other hand, wants to use the hearing to expand the hearing to demonstrate that the real, ah, situation here (another situation) is the racial situation where the Raj couldn't tolerate a dark-skinned Indian boy, who really was an Englishman, crossed the line of accepted behavior.

Gopal out of hand dismisses the notion that Hari is a security threat, the official excuse for holding him. And obviously there was no rape, Gopal points out.

The reader knows the facts lend greater support to Gopal's argument and can see Rowan's official line crumbling during the entire interrogation. That there is a difference is apparent during the first half, but after the break, there is a breach in Rowan's strategy.

Not only is the interrogation out of hand, from Rowan's perspective, but it seems to take on an energy of its own, especially when Hari discovers Daphne died in child birth.

Now, that's a situation. But the definition of situation takes on an added dimension next week when Merrick, the man of an overly active intellect within a restricted space, offers his take on what a situation is.

I knew this interrogation scene was intense and pivotal, but I'd forgotten just how intense it is.

During the interrogation: "Again she sought the reassurance of the pleats and buttons of her blouse." I love this reference to the outward and tangible evidence of LM's status as an Englishwoman of means. Earlier Scott made a point of describing Hari's gray, loose-fitting prison garb ("floppy collarless jacket and trousers") and Gopal's uniform of khaki shirt and shorts, pugree and baton, "suggesting authority but also aid or comfort..." Very reflective of Scott's upbringing both as the son of a fashion illustrator and as a child growing up in an English neighborhood where appearances were everything.

Also loved the description of Gopal's inner conflict regarding Hari. He wanted to believe Hari, the Indian, but kept hectoring the Englishman in Hari: "Underneath that apolitical, civil service, collaborative exterior pumped the old anti-British fears, prejudices and superstitions. It came to her that Gopal disliked Kumar for the type of Indian Kumar was...It was the white man in Kumar he enjoyed attacking. But the objective was the revelation of the full outrage and unjust pressure Kumar the Indian had suffered." Such a brilliant contradiction!

Martin wrote: "This section, in my warped mind at least, sorta redefines "situation room."

A situation is defined as a moment and place of confrontation where one side is trying to extract as much as possible to..."

"especially when Hari discovers Daphne died in child birth"

Sorry, Martin, but we haven't read this far yet. 50 lashes with the wet noodle for you!!

Martin, Martin, Martin......you are the king of the spoilers. Be sure and stay within the pages in the weekly assignment. It is difficult since you have already read the book so I am going to open "Thoughts on Book as a Whole" which is a spoiler thread and anything outside the weekly read can go there.

Not guilty.

The top of the thread says pages 266-296, and I have both feet inbounds. Check out the replay!

I can't do page numbers because I'm reading from a two-volume set. The last page of this week's assignment ends with the sentence, "Rowan took over". Unless, I missed something, Hari has been told nothing yet of Daphne's demise. If I'm wrong, please accept my humble apologies and the retraction of the wet noodle.

I think Jill is mixing me up with an old boyfriend.

Ha Ha.........I told you something was cogent once and you said the same thing. Daphne's death is not mentioned in this week's assignment. It is on page 304 of my book and that is why I always put what the last sentence of the assignment is since the numbering systems vary depending on what edition you are reading. The wet noodle is back in play!!!

Gopal may win the battle of the interrogation while Rowan wants to be more conservative. I am intrigued by Hari at this stage of his life......has he accepted the fact that he is truly an Indian and not a dark-skinned Englishman?

There is something about Hari's demeanor throughout the interrogation that I just don't like. He seems to have what my psychologist friends would describe as a "flat affect" - very little, if any, emotion in his responses.

Apologies. Reminds me of a song by Cake: "You think she's an open book, but you have no idea what page you're on."

I think the page numbers should be cited from a different book each week.

Donna wrote: "There is something about Hari's demeanor throughout the interrogation that I just don't like. He seems to have what my psychologist friends would describe as a "flat affect" - very little, if any,..."

I am wondering if he is just trying to figure out the what and why of this interrogation and therefore, does not want to show any emotion. This interrogation came out of the blue and he has to be truly puzzled. They tell him that it will not effect his imprisonment but he must have some hope that it will or why would they bother?

That makes sense, Jill. Maybe he is simply being deliberative and calculating in his responses.

Jill, I just looked at reading assignment for Week 9. We aren't ready for "The Christening" yet. The section that ends with Rowan saying "It's safe now" is the last page of "The Situation."

I meant to change that last week......thanks for the reminder. Change is made. Yikes!!!!!

It gets confusing. You are doing a great job. Thank you. I never would have read this wonderful quartet if it weren't for HBC. And the comments from everyone - Martin included :-) - add so much to my understanding.

Thanks, Donna.....sometimes things get misplaced but it all works out, doesn't it.

Merrick's change of opinion of Daphne is based on what? Her relationship with Hari, the fact that she was raped (blame the victim game), the testimony of the doctor who said she wasn't a virgin (which in actuality could not be proved), or a combination of all those factors. He obviously uses some pretty obscene words to describe her. That certainly shows a change of heart.

It might help to regard Merrick for what he is - someone without a great deal of self knowledge, wrestling with gender issues, a man who operates within narrow intellectual boundaries yet has a highly active mind, and a psychopath operating under the imprimatur of the Raj.

I think Hari definitely is wary, and well he should be. The Hari we see under interrogation, perhaps in contrast to Merrick, has a high degree of self awareness and knows how to play the detention game. On the one hand, he is speaking truthfully, but on the other doesn't want to tip his hand to his adversaries.

I like your assessment of Merrick, Martin. One more thing I would add to Merrick's traits is the fact that he also has social class issues since he is not a "public school" boy. Hari's education galls him to no end........so he is "in charge" and revels in that position and his power over Hari (and others for that matter).

Do you base your opinion that he has gender issues on the examination of Hari or is there something else throughout what we have read that indicated that?

Thanks. Good point on his social issues. Everyone in the Raj has them to one degree, or another, and almost all suffer to one degree or another because they know they're English and that in England their social status would be knocked down a peg, or two.

My first intimations that Merrick had gender issues was his date with Daphne. While he was just uncomfortable and it could be an indication of a shy bachelor, the gender issue is confirmed in his interview with Bronowsky.

I don't consider his groping of Hari as a sexual act. It's about power and humiliating Hari, both on a professional level as the young man's interrogator, but also on a personal level as Hari's rival in the confusion that is Merrick's mind.

I agree on the Bronowsky interview. I also saw the groping examination as an action to further demean Hari.
Earlier you called Merrick "psychopathic" and I thought it might be too strong a term but as we hear more from Hari (who I think is telling the truth), the more I think you may be right. The man has problems.

Psychopathy is one of those squishy psychological terms. It sounds scientific, but it is not. It is used in judicial systems, especially in regards to criminal behavior.

But this from Wikipedia helps:

"Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/) (or sociopathy /ˈsoʊsiəˌpæθi/) is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. It may also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations."

Merrick scores high in lack of empathy and from a certain perspective antisocial behavior; he has not a single friend. In the wedding scene, he's a functionary with no social connections based on friendship, empathy, love, or any of the other factors woven into the social warp and weave.

His date with Daphne and his "confession" to Sarah are so lacking in connecting with another person on a social level.

Empathy? Remorse? Perish the thought.

But it's the second part of the definition, that raises questions about whether Merrick is a product of the Raj:

"also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations."

I think it's fair to ask whether Merrick isn't the worst of the Raj distilled into a single character?

I believe the groping examination is more than demeaning and has deeper roots, even though Merrick despises Hari for his upper class upbringing in England. Why doesn't Merrick show the same dominance over the other Indians who are interrogated? I don't think Merrick was ever in love with Daphne, just her position in society, which would afford him power in the class-layered Raj community. I think Merrick is an opportunist and a psychopath, a strange product of the Raj that is rarely portrayed, but living so far from home did strange things to people back then. Having just returned from India and Burma, there is still the sting from the Raj imprinted in some of the people there.

Hi Barbara....glad you joined us. How right you are in your assessment of Merrick's feeling for Daphne. His only chance to move into a higher class of society which is important to him is to become aligned through a relationship or marriage to someone like Daphne as we first met her. In fact he probably hated her as time went on and she showed interest in Hari. Those feelings are supported by the obscenities concerning her that Hari reports in his interrogation.

I was using a stronger definition of psychopath in regard to your comments on Merrick, Martin. But Wikipedia trumps me as he does fit into that definition.

Merrick has multi-layered reasons for his hatred and treatment of Hari but he has come up against a young man who seems to be immune to his various attempts to break him (for lack of a better word). The other boys who were arrested are incidental to Merrick....it is Hari on whom he is concentrating his efforts. The interrogation in this week's read is revealing Hari to be a much deeper and intelligent person than was first presented.

Yes, Hari has grown up, a lot.

One of the things that impresses is his awareness of the subplot. He doesn't have all the facts, but makes a reasonable assessment of why he is being interrogated, again.

His answers are well thought out and he is convincing.

By the bye, I really am trying to comply with concerns about spoilers, but I cannot find the phrases are that determine the stopping point. I'm using the University of Chicago edition, but also have the Everyman edition. It would be helpful to me if we could paste page numbers in those editions rather than flipping through pages looking for a phrase.

Is your Everyman's addition the two-volume one? If so, I could post the page numbers for you.

Donna, Yes. That would be wonderful.

Okay, I'm sure you've already found this week's endpoint, but just in case you haven't, it's page 785.

And Week 9 is easy, the end of the chapter, page 808.

thanks

That is a great help, Donna. My set is neither of those so I don't have that page breakdown. Thanks so much and thanks for calling that to my attention, Martin. There was a request, early on, to put in the last sentence of the week's assignment and will continue to do that as well.

Yes, Jill, we'll still need the last sentence for the reading in order to find the ending page number. Thank you!

In an earlier post, Martin said, "I think it's fair to ask whether Merrick isn't the worst of the Raj distilled into a single character? ". I was thinking back over many of the books I have read about the British in India and every one reflected that same attitude....both in the military and civilian population. Merrick could have been a character in any of those books....the personification of the Raj. The Indians were tolerated, condescended to, mistreated in many cases, and generally considered a lesser breed of humanity. It is Merrick personified but he has a particularly unpleasant twist to his personality which makes his attitude more personal......the situation.

I agree that Merrick makes things very personal with Hari. Hari infuriated him by speaking a higher class English than Merrick and by daring to have a friendship with Daphne. And his behaviors seem pathological beyond just the typical Raj mentality.

I've been out for the past couple of weeks. Thanks to all who commented here, it makes the read very enjoyable and although I finished the book a while back it brings back fond reading memories.

Martin wrote: "Apologies. Reminds me of a song by Cake: "You think she's an open book, but you have no idea what page you're on."

I think the page numbers should be cited from a different book each week."

LOL