Victorians! discussion

Cynthia arranges for Molly to secretly meet with Mr. Preston and ask for her letters back. Their clandestine meeting is interrupted by Mr. Sheepshanks.

Osborne pays a visit to see Mr. Gibson about his poor health. The only person present is Molly, and he opens up about his marriage and leaves Molly the address of where his wife resides.

Cynthia gave Molly an envelope with the money owed to Mr. Preston prior to leaving for London and the Kirkpatricks. Molly goes on an outing with the Phoebe Browning and takes the letter in hopes of meeting Mr. Preston. He is indeed in one of the shops, and Molly, taking courage, gives him the envelope. Unfortunately the exchange is seen by the town gossip Mrs. Goodenough. It doesn’t take long before the whole town is talking of Molly and Mr. Preston and Molly’s reputation as a respectable girl is in shambles.

Phebe Browning, alarmed at what is taking place, summons Mr. Gibson to inform him of the gossip. He returns home and questions Molly, who is forthright but not willing to divulge the secrets entrusted to her. He suspects it is Cynthia all along.

Molly is not exactly exiled from village life, but she is certainly put on the fringes until Lady Harriet gets wind of it and doesn’t believe Molly at fault. All this time Mrs. Gibson had been sick with influenza, so she isn’t aware at all what is going on. With Lady Harriet in the mix acting as Molly’s champion things turn around for Molly. What’s more, Lady Harriet confronts Mr. Preston to her father’s consternation. Talk of the scandal reaches the Towers and things come to a head with Cynthia’s return from London. Mr. Gibson gives her a piece of his mind – deservedly so – and Cynthia counters that he doesn’t know all. The girl has gall! Still, she is labeled a jilter and a flirt. Locking herself in her room, Cynthia writes to Roger and the Squire breaking off the engagement.

A messenger arrives to announce Osborne Hamley has suddenly died. Molly rushes to Hamley Hall to console the Squire followed by her father. It is agreed she should stay there for a while and look after things. Molly tells her father of Osborne’s secret marriage.

The last chapter in this section ...*sniff*

I love how Gaskell writes about grief; I really feel the pain through her words.

"Phebe Browning, alarmed at what is taking place, summons Mr. Gibson to inform him of the gossip. "

Kerstin, I believe it is Dorothy, not Phoebe who summons Mr G to tell him about the scandal surrounding Molly.

Kerstin wrote: "Cynthia arranges for Molly to secretly meet with Mr. Preston and ask for her letters back. Their clandestine meeting is interrupted by Mr. Sheepshanks.

Osborne pays a visit to see Mr. Gibson abou..."

Kerstin, you write: « Unfortunately the exchange is seen by the town gossip Mrs. Goodenough. »
How could it be otherwise, considering the most awkward way in the world, which Molly gave him the envelope? Really, Molly is the worst girl in the world as far as hiding and doing bad things is concerned! She’s too cute.
What a pity Mr. Gibson is such a good doctor who can heal his wife! Oh, what an ugly thought, shame on me!

Gabrielle wrote: "Really, Molly is the worst girl in the world as far as hiding and doing bad things is concerned! She’s too cute.
What a pity Mr. Gibson is such a good doctor who can heal his wife! Oh, what an ugly thought, shame on me! ."

LOL! ;)

I loved how Dorothy actually boxed(!) her sister's Phoebe's ear when she told her about the brewing scandal. :D :D

I honestly felt a little sorry for Mr Preston after Molly's speech. O_o She's too innocent and inexperienced for such trysts.

Lois wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Really, Molly is the worst girl in the world as far as hiding and doing bad things is concerned! She’s too cute.
What a pity Mr. Gibson is such a good doctor who can heal his wife..."

Yes... maybe I agree a little about Preston. He's a strong character.
He would have been the good man (husband) to tame Cynthia's indecisions, and little falsities and her way of hoodwinking people. (I'm not sure of this verb; I meant "embobiner" in French, but I couldn't translate it correctly! And I like this verb "embobiner" it sounds funny! :D)
I'm afraid for the man who will marry Cynthia one day, if he's not strong enough. He'll have to follow her like a doggie!
That's what I like with Cynthia: she's got a big power on men. In few years, when she really realizes this, she can decide to use this power in a bad or a good way. We can't say what she will become.
As for Molly, she's a good person, and there won't be any surprises: she will remain a good person.
And... yes, I like good persons! But I also like surprises... in books! ;)

Gabreille wrote: "He would have been the good man (husband) to tame Cynthia's indecisions, and little falsities and her way of hoodwinking people. (I'm not sure of this verb; I meant "embobiner" in French, but I couldn't translate it correctly! And I like this verb "embobiner" it sounds funny! :D)
I'm afraid for the man who will marry Cynthia one day, if he's not strong enough. He'll have to follow her like a doggie!"

LOL..hoodwinking is a perfect descriptor for Cynthia.

But hmm...I'm not sure if Preston would have been good to Cynthia had they married given something he thought in Chap 47:

And he asked himself why he was such a confounded fool as to go on hankering after a penniless girl, who was as fickle as the wind? The answer was silly enough, logically; but forcible in fact. Cynthia was Cynthia, and not Venus herself could have been her substitute. ... But no one would ever be to Mr. Preston what Cynthia had been, and was; and yet he could have stabbed her in certain of his moods.

Yikes!

And then something Cynthia thinks about as well later in Chap 50:

Yet often in after years, when it was too late, she wondered and strove to penetrate the inscrutable mystery of "what would have been."

"Too late"?? Makes me wonder if her eventual marriage an unhappy one then.

Lois wrote: "Gabreille wrote: "He would have been the good man (husband) to tame Cynthia's indecisions, and little falsities and her way of hoodwinking people. (I'm not sure of this verb; I meant "embobiner" in..."

I didn't remember the two sentences you noted, I finished the book maybe 20 days ago. They are very interesting, you're right, Lois, but I read them differently than you do:
"Cynthia was Cynthia, and not Venus herself could have been her substitute" means that Preston is completly fond of Cynthia, totally in love. That's why he runs after her for years: he's blind to any other girl. For Preston, there can be no substitute to Cynthia.
"and yet he could have stabbed her in certain of his moods" for me this doesn't mean that he really wants to kill her sometimes, this is the description of passion.

Your two quotes comfort me in my idea: Preston would have been the perfect man for Cynthia! She's not a soft girl. She wishes she was, she wishes she was a good girl like Molly which she really admire. But she has already admitted that she's absolutly this kind of girl.

And when Gaskell writes: "Yet often in after years, when it was too late, she wondered and strove to penetrate the inscrutable mystery of "what would have been." as you have noted, gaskell was already imagining Cynthia in two or ten years: Cynthia is going to realize who she is, and then, I'm sure, if she chooses a kind husband, she'll be unhappy and she'll make this husband unhappy. In this quote, there's maybe a regret from Cynthia not to choose Preston.

I am really annoyed with Cynthia for blaming Molly after the situation with Mr. Preston was found out. Molly did those clandestine meetings for Cynthia even though she didn't want to. They had agreed before Cynthia went to London that if Molly could not handle the situation, Papa would have to help. So when the situation came that Molly was not able to handle it and Papa had to be told what happened, Cynthia gets angry with Molly. Molly didn't reveal anything more than what she was at liberty to tell. She just wanted Papa to understand that she was not involved with Mr. Preston herself. It's not Molly's fault how obvious who it was that Cynthia was involved.

Cynthia is a flirt and really doesn't care about the men she flirts with. She says so herself. I think she really should go to Russia and be a governess. She can't love as a proper wife should. This she also says herself.

Gabrielle wrote: "..."and yet he could have stabbed her in certain of his moods" for me this doesn't mean that he really wants to kill her sometimes, this is the description of passion..

Yes, but it wouldn't be a happy marriage now, would it Gabrielle? I can picture plenty of shouting matches between the two and infidelity as well from both sides had it led down that road.

In this quote, there's maybe a regret from Cynthia not to choose Preston.

That quote comes soon after this line Gabrielle:

"For a moment Cynthia's wilful fancy stretched after the object passing out of her grasp,—Roger's love became for the instant a treasure;"

- so to me, it sounds like there might be a twinge of regret from Cynthia, in the future, about breaking off from Roger, not Preston. I don't think she regrets, not even for a moment, in seeing the back of Preston.

Joanne wrote: "So when the situation came that Molly was not able to handle it and Papa had to be told what happened, Cynthia gets angry with Molly. Molly didn't reveal anything more than what she was at liberty to tell. She just wanted Papa to understand that she was not involved with Mr. Preston herself. "

Yeah, talk about being ungrateful. Not only did Molly do her bidding to the fullest, she even had to endure her name being slandered in the process. Where's the thanks in that?

But actually Joanne, Molly does handle the situation with Preston on her own, quite admirably too for someone as inexperienced as she was.

She only admits the meeting with Preston when Mr Gibson questions her when he heard about the scandal from Miss Browning. Even then, Molly doesn't betray Cynthia; he figures who the actual culprit is (Cynthia) all on his own.

Sounds like I am not the only one to find Preston being portrayed in a more complex way in this section- not a one dimensional evil character. Although he is obviously unethical- using the initial monetary gift to Cynthia, Cynthia’s letters which include damning comments about her mother, unending attempted domination to go forward with their engagement- he is motivated by true love, such as he can experience it. In addition, his deep mortification at Cynthia’s current hatred for him is understandable. I would not wish him as a husband for anyone, however, given his handling of the situation and his satisfaction in the slanderous gossip about Molly because she had acted as an agent and ally for Cynthia.

I cannot see Cynthia being happy as a wife unless she finds a way to control her need for admiration from men and her use of flirting towards this end. She cannot seem to help from leading men on- Coxe, Henderson and of course Roger. She loves none of them, although she did reflect on what might have been regarding Roger, as has been noted.

Cynthia does possess a self-awareness that Molly seems to lack. Cynthia can define what type of person she is, as opposed to Molly who doesn’t have the same self-reflection. She is always looking outward- observing other people, reacting to other people, trying to determine how she can help the people she cares about. She has grown in these circumstances from the sheltered girl she was. Her courage in facing Preston and forming the successful plan of telling Harriet who will tell Lord Cumnor about Preston and Cynthia is admirable. She has also proven to have a moral code in not betraying the secrets others have shared with her as several have already noted.

Lastly, it’s pretty sad that the people of Hollingford who have known Molly as a kind, good person for her entire life are so quick to judge her for inappropriate behavior. Even the Miss Brownings are not entirely convinced her relationship with Preston could be innocent. Harriet steps forward as the true believer in Molly in this section- hurray for her!

Lois wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "..."and yet he could have stabbed her in certain of his moods" for me this doesn't mean that he really wants to kill her sometimes, this is the description of passion..

Yes, but ..."

I should have re-open the book before to answer you on the second part. However, I maintain what I think about Cynthia eventually marrying a man not strong enough to handle her...

"but it wouldn't be a happy marriage now, would it Gabrielle?" Maybe, Lois, maybe...
But, if Cynthia is the strong character I imagine (she's still young, now), she'll soon get bored with a too kind man and the result might also not be happy.

You know what, Lois? We should write the end of the book and see how all this could end for Molly, Cynthia, Preston, Roger and the others in five years! :)
I'm kidding... it's already written in my head! ;)

Linda wrote: "Sounds like I am not the only one to find Preston being portrayed in a more complex way in this section- not a one dimensional evil character. Although he is obviously unethical- using the initial ..."

"Cynthia does possess a self-awareness that Molly seems to lack. ... trying to determine how she can help the people she cares about."
Well thought, Linda!

Gabrielle wrote: "Linda wrote: "Sounds like I am not the only one to find Preston being portrayed in a more complex way in this section- not a one dimensional evil character. Although he is obviously unethical- usin..."I thought it was really great that Molly made him aware of his own sinfulness and forced him to become honest. She showed him how his behavior lacked the honor of a gentleman. There was no denying it. I think that for Preston to fall in love with Cynthia as a 16 year old when he was much older is border line deviance. Would 16 year old girls even be allowed to marry at that time? As Molly said, she was not old enough to be considered a woman who could make such promises.
Do any of you think he could be considered a sort of...pedophile is not the correct word...but I don't know what is.

Nothing suggests Mr. Preston is a predator, but he is in love with the beautiful Cynthia, and now she is jilting him. From his perspective she went back on her promise, and he does have reason to believe she was sincere, especially since she confirmed her sentiments towards him in numerous letters. The money he lent her irritates the situation even further. He is frustrated and expresses his frustration and at the same time wants to hang on. In the end he gives Cynthia up because he has to earn a living and can't afford to annoy Lord Cumnor.

Joanne wrote: "Would 16 year old girls even be allowed to marry at that time?"

Yes, Joanne; marriageable age for a girl was 12 years of age at that time (with parental consent) until it was raised to 16 year of age in 1929.

And, Cynthia made Preston promise to wait for 2 years, until she turned 18 years (coinciding with when she returns to England from France) which is why he wanted to keep their engagement a secret no longer once she returned.

Linda wrote: "Sounds like I am not the only one to find Preston being portrayed in a more complex way in this section- not a one dimensional evil character. ... Harriet steps forward as the true believer in Molly in this section- hurray for her! "

Great post Linda! All valuable points.

I'm totally team Harriet! So glad she had the good sense to know that something was amiss regarding the rumours around Molly. To think that she who has barely interacted with the girl in all these years would know more about her true character than the regulars. What a shame, eh. But then, what does a small village live for but for gossip and rumours.

I cannot see Cynthia being settled in a happy married life either. I feel sorry for whoever it is that ends up with her. She is fickle and flighty - I imagine her attraction to be something like that of Mrs Bennet's or Lydia Bennet's from Pride & Prejudice; a husband who is charmed by her initially but eventually one who won't respect her.

I sincerely believed and hoped when she said she wasn't the marrying type. Like you said, she knows exactly the kind of person she is, faults and all.

Lois wrote: "I'm totally team Harriet! So glad she had the good sense to know that something was amiss regarding the rumours around Molly. To think that she who has barely interacted with the girl in all these years would know more about her true character than the regulars. What a shame, eh. But then, what does a small village live for but for gossip and rumours."

Me too. At this point I think I like Lady Harriet best.

There is always a certain amount of glee involved when the mighty fall. Here Molly had an untarnished reputation and from one moment to the next she gets implicated in sordid affairs. Gossip feeds on half-truths and lies. The truth is unremarkable and dull, so even if it is given it is not accepted. It reminds me of the famous line in the movie (I don't know if it is in the book too) The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance,

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend"

Maybe Cynthia will be the one to make Roger see Molly as a possible wife.
Also I wonder if Cynthia was sending mixed messages in her previous attempts to break off from Preston.
Also in this or the last reading there was a comment about a widow that had been throwing herself at Preston. Would that have been Mrs gibson?

so now we know why Mrs Gibson did not want Cynthia at her wedding - clearly she had once believed Mr Preston to be interested in her, only to have him drop her for her beautiful daughter - she was not going to risk that happening again!

I just finished the reading in this section. The last chapter was so sad. The squire finally realizes he has wasted so many precious moments not talking to Osborne. Not having a relationship with his son. The squire finds out his son felt like he could not tell his Dad that he had a wife and a child. I understand that the squire made it impossible for Osborne to open up to him. But when someone reaches a certain age --- you need to own up to your decisions and take responsibility for your actions.

At this point in the novel, I was hoping Mrs. Gibson would redeem herself, even if it was just a little bit. But she remains narcissistic. She is even proud of Cynthia having all the engagements because it reminds her of herself.

Cynthia has grown-up and taken responsibility for her actions. She realizes she really does not love Roger and let's him go. she is easy to move on and become a governess somewhere in "Russia".

I have hope for Molly and Roger. Molly cares for Roger and secretly loves him. But since Roger was engaged to Cynthia she did not allow herself to acknowledge those feelings. So I figure something might have to happen for Roger to think more of Molly than his sister.

Molly was able to unburden herself with the two biggest secrets of the novel -- Mr. Preston and Cynthia's engagement and Osborne's marriage to Aimee.

Mr. Gibson redeems himself by believing in his daughter without all the facts. He finally takes a stand for Molly.

The big question remains -- is Osborne legally married to Aimee?

Gabrielle wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Cynthia arranges for Molly to secretly meet with Mr. Preston and ask for her letters back. Their clandestine meeting is interrupted by Mr. Sheepshanks.

Osborne pays a visit to see..."

It was not an ugly thought -- just the truth. :)

Lois wrote: "Gabreille wrote: "He would have been the good man (husband) to tame Cynthia's indecisions, and little falsities and her way of hoodwinking people. (I'm not sure of this verb; I meant "embobiner" in..."

Wished there was a like button for your comment!

I almost can’t take it any more! Molly’s life is so dull and it seems as though she walks through life with submission and self-sacrifice while all these relationship problems and this love from Roger is dangling in front of her eyes. Her father is even joking about her lack of affairs. I am awaiting her passion to burst in the last chapters.

Laurene wrote: "I just finished the reading in this section. The last chapter was so sad. The squire finally realizes he has wasted so many precious moments not talking to Osborne. Not having a relationship with h..."

You were "hoping Mrs. Gibson would redeem herself, even if it was just a little bit."?
How nice you are to believe that everyone is good! ;) That's very refreshing, Laurene. :)

Laurene wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Cynthia arranges for Molly to secretly meet with Mr. Preston and ask for her letters back. Their clandestine meeting is interrupted by Mr. Sheepshanks.

Osborne p..."

Thanks, Laurene, I feel better! :)

Charlotte wrote: "I almost can’t take it any more! Molly’s life is so dull and it seems as though she walks through life with submission and self-sacrifice while all these relationship problems and this love from Ro..."

"I am awaiting her passion to burst in the last chapters." Ah! Thanks, Charlotte! So do I!
Please, Molly, wake up and live!

Laurene wrote: "I just finished the reading in this section. The last chapter was so sad. The squire finally realizes he has wasted so many precious moments not talking to Osborne. Not having a relationship with h..."

I agree - so very sad, and so well portrayed by Gaskell without being sentimental.

Molly has spent her life trying to make life easier for her father, so it's not a big step for her to try and make life easier for everyone else. She gets weighed down by other people's problems. Even her father doesn't like how quick she is to do what someone else wants.

Gabrielle wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "I almost can’t take it any more! Molly’s life is so dull and it seems as though she walks through life with submission and self-sacrifice while all these relationship problems and..."
I think Molly has exhibited many moments of passion concerning Roger- bursting into tears, blushing furiously, her heart pounding. Her blind spot is that she doesn't consciously realize that these feelings are not for platonic concern about Roger, but stem from her passionate love for him. Perhaps part of the problem is that Roger had clearly stated earlier in the novel that he thought of her as a sister so that subconsciously for her own self-protection she clings to their bond as friends. Don’t know if that’s too much psychological interpretation for Gaskell.

Linda wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "I almost can’t take it any more! Molly’s life is so dull and it seems as though she walks through life with submission and self-sacrifice while all these relatio..."

Yes you're right, Linda. But what we'd like to read now, is the externalization of Molly's passions! :) But will Molly be able or dare one day to do it?

For discussion this coming week! Molly needs Cynthia or Harriet to shake some sense into her.

Gabrielle wrote: "Linda wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "I almost can’t take it any more! Molly’s life is so dull and it seems as though she walks through life with submission and self-sacrifice while all..."

Gabrielle wrote: "Linda wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "I almost can’t take it any more! Molly’s life is so dull and it seems as though she walks through life with submission and self-sacrifice while all..."

Molly is very wonderful, but overly-idealized, so perfect she cannot even acknowledge her jealousy. It is hard to read a very likeable, but not very believable, character like Molly. She is courageous in her own way.

ConnieD wrote: "...Also I wonder if Cynthia was sending mixed messages in her previous attempts to break off from Preston.
Also in this or the last reading there was a comment about a widow that had been throwing herself at Preston. Would that have been Mrs gibson? "

Yea, I think so too Connie; I think Cynthia was definitely sending out mixed signals to Preston. I feel like she did the same with Roger as well. And yes, I do believe Mrs G did at one time throw herself or fancy Preston for herself. Hence those rumours that one of the ladies mentioned at the Charity Ball.

Mrs G is quite a jealous woman, eh. She doesn't like sharing attention with her daughter or step-daughter for that matter.

I think it was respectable of Mr. Gibson not to press Molly to give up her (Cynthia's) secret. Mr. Gibson could already guess that it had something to do with Cynthia, but other fathers wouldn't be so considerate to their children. Molly is certainly the keeper of secrets in this story.

Kathy wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Linda wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "I almost can’t take it any more! Molly’s life is so dull and it seems as though she walks through life with submission and self-s..."

You're right, Kathy.

JJ wrote: "I think it was respectable of Mr. Gibson not to press Molly to give up her (Cynthia's) secret. Mr. Gibson could already guess that it had something to do with Cynthia, but other fathers wouldn't be..."

Yes, you're right. And it's because Mr. Gibson has always trusted his daughter. He knew Molly was innocent when the story with young Mr. Coxe happened, and so on...

I wonder if Molly’s life seems lackluster because we are judging it by contemporary standards. Molly reflected the more quiet rural life of the early 19th century. For her, a visit to the Towers or Hamley Hall was excitement enough. If she expresses any sense of dissatisfaction with her life it is not being as close to her father after his marriage to Mrs. Gibson or, of course, her jealousy of Roger’s attention to Cynthia because she feels it has diminished their friendship. For her, her relationships with the people she loves are of paramount importance and either provide her with joy or sorrow. Her expectations of life outside these relationships was different than ours. Just a thought.

Linda wrote: "I wonder if Molly’s life seems lackluster because we are judging it by contemporary standards. Molly reflected the more quiet rural life of the early 19th century. For her, a visit to the Towers or..."

Molly strikes me as a typical introvert. She is quiet, reflective, and a person who experiences life on a much deeper level then Cynthia and her mother who are far more superficial. So yes, the quiet pace of rural life suits her perfectly. When bad things happen, her natural inclination is to withdraw. She overcomes those inclinations here and there when the need arises, such as when she delivers Mr. Preston the letter. We today live in such a loud and extroverted culture we often mistake introversion for social ineptitude. But nothing suggests that Molly is socially inept.

Molly's introversion also makes her a perfect mate for Roger. His esoteric passion for science is something she appreciates as we have seen in earlier chapters. Question is, does he realize it?

In reference to Mrs Gibson's need for attention, I think of Lady Harriet. Mrs. Gibson can't stand it that Lady Harriet enjoys Molly and likes talking to her. We see this in several places in the novel.

Kerstin wrote: "Molly's introversion also makes her a perfect mate for Roger. His esoteric passion for science is something she appreciates as we have seen in earlier chapters. Question is, does he realize it? "

Yup, that's Molly to a T, Kerstin. :)

As much as we're supposed to root for Molly and Roger, I just can't get on-board with this romance. I can't help wondering if they are perfect for each other because her interests can be moulded to reflect his or because she is a people-pleaser that their marriage would be conflict-free and harmonious.

Joanne wrote: "In reference to Mrs Gibson's need for attention, I think of Lady Harriet. Mrs. Gibson can't stand it that Lady Harriet enjoys Molly and likes talking to her. We see this in several places in the no..."

It also demonstrates her inability to love. If she had a bigger heart, she wouldn't begrudge Molly spending time with Lady Harriet. To the contrary, she would be very much pleased for Molly having a friend who genuinely likes her.

Lois wrote: "As much as we're supposed to root for Molly and Roger, I just can't get on-board with this romance. I can't help wondering if they are perfect for each other because her interests can be moulded to reflect his or because she is a people-pleaser that their marriage would be conflict-free and harmonious. "

Cynthia has dominated the narrative to such an extend that everyone else takes second fiddle. That's what I come away with so far. Except in the beginning chapters when Molly was still very much a child, we don't get many opportunities to observe Molly and Roger together.