SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Hello everyone!
Lately, I was thinking about what people here might think about chapters having (or not) names. By my (not so big) experience so far, it seems to be more common for chapters to be named in longer books, which makes sense.

What I'd like to know is: do people find named chapters more useful than just numbers? If yes, then in what situation? Do people tend to re-read just a portion of book sometimes when they believe they missed something at the first time and want to have a look again, for which it might help finding that exact spot?
Or, did someone encounter a chapter named so poorly it spoiled the next pages?

I don't think it's just about being useful - It's about setting a tone.

When books use named chapters it is because they are setting up a promise for a reader for what that chapter contains (look at Harry Potter series or The Book Thief for some practical examples of this).

When books use numbers it's likely because they don't want to name chapters for stylistic reasons (they really remind you that you're reading a book) or because they don't want to foreshadow what happens in the chapter itself.

Well, I think it can be useful at times. Like when I'm reading in late evening (or in train with not so long left before I have to get off), and the chapter hints that it's "calm before the storm" now, then I'll put the book aside now rather than doing that in the middle of action-packed part.

I never appreciated chapter names enough before I started reading ebooks and listening to audiobooks. It's much easier to find your place on another device when you have chapter names. I jump around a lot (from one device to another), and I can't always rely on it being automatically updated. I tend to fall asleep to audios, so it's nice to be able to start the chapter I last remember hearing.

I also like them while rereading, but I honestly don't think I pay much attention to them when reading for the first time, unless they're special in some way.

You may find that weird, but when I browse a book I may buy, I like to consult the table of content, to see if the author covered some aspects that particularly interest me. One example was when I was looking for a book on WW2 generals: I wanted to make sure that the author had included chapters on particular generals (Patton, Montgomery, Rommel). In that case, numbered chapters would be of no use at all.

DSM wrote: "or because they don't want to foreshadow what happens in the chapter itself. .."

Nailed it.

I like 'em. Whether for reference, or because they do set a tone, they're often in the books that I like. Fiction or non-fiction.

They do *not* have to be spoilery... they can be vague or metaphoric while still being useful for pre-reading or place-holding.

I think they're a good indication of a writer who is really talented and creative. If you can show me, in the table of contents, a sense of the story to expect, and intrigue me with the chapter titles, *without* giving too much away, I'm much more likely to read your book.

What bugs me is having chapter titles but not having a table of contents (this happens sometimes in fiction). I don't see the point, then.

Currently working on Sea of Rust and it has an interesting chapter naming: the main POV is an AI/Android and the chapters are based on binary code. Very clever - and helpful in establishing the world view of narrator!

Cheryl wrote: "I think they're a good indication of a writer who is really talented and creative. If you can show me, in the table of contents, a sense of the story to expect, and intrigue me with the chapter titles, *without* giving too much away, I'm much more likely to read your book."
That's actually quite nice approach.

Cheryl wrote: "What bugs me is having chapter titles but not having a table of contents (this happens sometimes in fiction). I don't see the point, then."
In physical books, yeah, might feel weird. For ebooks, if they are formatted properly, I think the ebook should easily read them as bookmarks and be able to direct you to headlines. Kindle does that well, even on word files I sent myself for study reference, but that's going a bit offtopic.

But if the ebook doesn't start the novel off with the chapter titles, you don't get the anticipation. Nor can you preview nonfiction as Michel wants to do.

Tomas. are you thinking about a novel? Do you have in mind whether it's ebook or paper or both?

In non-fiction I think chapter titles are rather essential. I'm far more likely to consult a table of contents before reading non-fiction than in fiction.

In fact, I never look at the ToC in fiction before reading. I also don't pay a lot of attention to chapter titles while reading. I mean I'll read the title as I come on it, but then forget what it is (at least in eBooks because the title does not show up on every page like it does in printed books).

I've never used chapter titles to find my place in a book. With printed books I always have book markers. And eBooks (99% of my reading) remember my place so I don't have to worry. I can't remember the last time it took me more than a few seconds to find my place.

All that said, you might think I don't like named titles but I actually do if the book warrants them. As DSM said in message 2, titled chapters add a sense of tone to a book. But that is not always necessary.

In my own writing I default to no chapter titles, and then add them later if I feel I need/want them. I tend to use them when the book has a lighter tone because the titles I prefer come with an inside joke--a cultural reference that somehow pertains to the story perhaps, or maybe a double entendre (non-sexual), or a phrase that references something in that chapter in an unexpected way. While, obviously, trying to avoid spoilers.

Done successfully they introduce a kind of game within the book between the book and the reader: spot the relevance of the title.

an odd mix are the Game of Thrones books - in the table of Contents they're Chapter 1, 2, etc, but when you open Chapter 1, it's the name of the POV character. I wish the ToC had both.

Y'all please recall this is in Member Chat, not the Author folder. If you'd like it moved, let me know, otherwise please keep the thread focused on other authors' works.

Cheryl wrote: "Tomas. are you thinking about a novel? Do you have in mind whether it's ebook or paper or both?"
I am asking about people's thoughts in general, though aimed more at full-size novels.

CBRetriever wrote: "an odd mix are the Game of Thrones books - in the table of Contents they're Chapter 1, 2, etc, but when you open Chapter 1, it's the name of the POV character. I wish the ToC had both."
Number + character name is what I saw several times, it has quite practical reason I'd say. And to that, name of character + name of chapter itself would probably look weird.

Allison wrote: "Y'all please recall this is in Member Chat, not the Author folder. If you'd like it moved, let me know, otherwise please keep the thread focused on other authors' works."
Created Author-PoV thread in the author folder for this discussion, hope that's okay?

I tend to not read chapter titles. To me, it's just an interruption to the story, not something that I need to stop the flow of the story to read. As such, I actually have a few pet peeves when it comes to chapter headings.

1) I dislike spoilery or overly "clever" descriptive headers. IE: "Chapter 3 - In which Mrs. McGillicutty's cat Miss Felicity Whiskerfeathers makes her debut into Society." Ugh. Just tell me the story. Why ruin it by making me imagine it for myself first? I really dislike this. And it doesn't seem to matter if it's accurate or if there's an unexpected twist or something.. it's the lead in that makes me pre-think the story that annoys me, no matter where the chapter goes from there. I don't want to have any preconceived notions of the story. I want to just ENJOY the story.

2) Chapter headings that are a continuation of the previous chapter. I find that Joe Hill uses this quite a bit, and it bugs me, even though I love his writing and style otherwise. IE: Chapter 3 will end abruptly and chapter 4 begins where the previous sentence left off. I just opened up NOS4A2 randomly to a perfect example:
"When Manx swatted through the batwing doors, coming for her, Vic shied away from him, squirming out of reach and ducking behind the big bulky Frigidaire, stepping toward the only place that remained to her, into

The Pantry

She grabbed the metal handle of the door and slammed it shut behind her."

But, as I tend to skip headers... I read this as "... stepping toward the only place that remained to her, into She grabbed the metal handle of the door and slammed it shut behind her."

Aggravating, because I inevitably have to go back and figure out what I missed. And eventually I'll adjust and start reading them as part of the story, but it just feels gimmicky, and makes me feel like I have a reading stutter or something, when every chapter I have to stop and reread parts.

3) POV chapters by character name. This is dependent on skill, I guess. As I mentioned, I dislike reading chapter headings, so if the chapter title is required to tell me who it is, and I actually have to check, then either the characters are too similar, or the author not skilled enough to write them so that I can tell who is who without needing to check.

So... anywho... the TL;DR version is: I prefer non-descriptive, numbered chapters. :)

Tomas wrote: "Allison wrote: "Y'all please recall this is in Member Chat, not the Author folder. If you'd like it moved, let me know, otherwise please keep the thread focused on other authors' works."
Created Au..."

I've combined them. This way we can keep all the comments and hear from others as well. Apologies to Graeme who had a writing-centric post that was deleted when this was not a combined chat. Please feel free to repost.

Well now that we can discuss writer's side PoV, I will add my thoughts in that too. Thing is that my own novel in the works is quite long (word says ~225000 words if I can believe it) and 58 chapters and I found it much easier to find a place in it by chapter names as I know that some parts might need a few more extra looks than others, or that I might need to check a specific point in the story that would be hard to find otherwise - even with me having papers with hand-drawn timelines.

And yes, it's challenging to come up with chapter names that are fitting, yet spoiler-free. More so for learning-on-the-go amateur like me...

Chapter naming can be a brain burner. Coming up with book and series titles is hard enough. I think you'll find many writers simply don't want the hassle. Lots of work with little reward. It's not like a reader will look at the chapter and stop reading because there isn't a chapter title.
That said, it does add a bit extra...something. A shiny to get a readers attention. Though I don't find it essential as a reader, I've read books where the chapter title made me keep going when I was ready to stop for the night.

Tell me about naming being hard. My files are still named "Project Eternity part0,5.docx", "Project Eternity part1.docx" and "Project Eternity part2.docx".

For me it’s six of one, half dozen of the other.

Lots of books combine numbers and descriptions as Becky mentions. That used to be rather common but less so these days. The Ketty Jay series does that.

In some books which have multiple locations and/or multiple POVs (and in SFF, multiple eras) the author sometimes notes that at the beginning of a chapter. Sometimes with a number, sometimes not. In those sprawling epics with many moving parts I find that sort of thing very helpful. I’ve seen that in Jack Chalker’s series, Tom Clancy novels, and even Joe Haldeman has employed it.

Something like this:

3. BERLIN - 1942
4. WASHINGTON DC - 1989

Or

11. Planet Zenon - Dr. Prollux
12. Planet Zenon - Commander Jeffries
13. Planet Marik IV - Gov. Kohlar

It helps to keep things straight for me.

Movies do it all the time. I recently rewatched Captain America: Civil War and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, and they used location identifiers throughout. CA: CW put giant bold words across the screen (LAGOS or QUEENS) while GotG named the planet (BEHR or EGO’S PLANET) and then had some sort of cryptic numerical galactic GPS underneath. The coordinates might mean something, but who knows? If they do, it’s just for hardcore fans who freeze frame them and work out where they are.

That latter gambit feels more like flavor to me rather than being helpful, much the way Star Trek’s “Stardate 9709-point-7” stuff does.

Tomas wrote: "Number + character name is what I saw several times, it has quite practical reason I'd say. And to that, name of character + name of chapter itself would probably look weird"

when you'e using the Go To, it would be useful to see:

Chapter 1 - Bran
Chapter 2 - Jon
Chapter 3 - Ned
Chapter 4 - Bran

so you could easily find the last POV of a certain character. Instead all I see in the Go To and ToC is

Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3
Chapter 4

CBRetriever wrote: "Tomas wrote: "Number + character name is what I saw several times, it has quite practical reason I'd say. And to that, name of character + name of chapter itself would probably look weird"

when yo..."

Frankly, this 'system' of chapter numbering and naming and others previously suggested/presented in this thread strike me as rather unimaginative and/or uninspiring. 'Chapter 4 - Bran', really? As far as I know, there are no hard and fast rules that prohibit writers from designating chapters in their books the way they wish. So, let the writers use their imagination and what they think would make their books more interesting to the readers. Readers want something new, original and entertaining, so, writers, prove that you have ideas! Find a way to make chapter names more than simple numbers! Make them eye-catching!

I don't read a book for the chapter names... I read it for the story. I want the imagination and creativity to be used there, not for something that I would rather skip over as unimportant.

I agree that the story is the meat of it, but chapters can be named in a way that makes the reading even more interesting and also more structured. Don't forget also that, in non-fiction books, chapters names can be quite important to help readers navigate the book.

Non-fiction, yes, I would agree. But otherwise, I skip them, and dislike it if I have to go back and read them.

Not saying that writers shouldn't write the way they want... Just, to me, personally, I prefer chapter titles that fade into the background to those that stand out screaming for attention. :)

Well, Becky, there is (hopefully) no one saying your approach is wrong and I started this discussion to see different opinions.
They should be just an extra tool for navigation, whether for the reader or writer, and definitely not mandatory to read, but if they are there, they should just as definitely have some depth to them - that's what I believe.

I've found it depends on the type of book. I like numbered chapters because they're easier to remember my place in the book with a quick reference, but I've seen named chapters that were effectively used. Harry Potter was mentioned and I think that's a great example of chapter titles that give you a feel for the book, and possibly foreshadow but rarely spoil. GoT I did like having the names...it was also super suspenseful (view spoiler)[when names stopped appearing in a book! (hide spoiler)] so that was kind of fun.

In Blackbirds, they added a sort of comic book feel, and often were small jokes or cutting comments in and of themselves. It took me awhile to adjust, but it definitely added to the tone. I wouldn't like, say Way of Kings to have chapters like Blackbirds, but it worked well for a sort of pulpy urban fantasy.

Michel wrote: "Frankly, this 'system' of chapter numbering and naming and others previously suggested/presented in this thread strike me as rather unimaginative and/or uninspiring. 'Chapter 4 - Bran', really? "

I'm talking about an already existing book that the Go To and Table of Contents just list
Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3
but when you go to Chapter 1, it's titled Bran (the POV character for that chapter)

When I'm reading chapter 25 and I want to check back for something in one of the Bran POV chapters, there's no easy way to find them.

Tomas wrote: "Well, Becky, there is (hopefully) no one saying your approach is wrong and I started this discussion to see different opinions.
They should be just an extra tool for navigation, whether for the rea..."

'Dept'. That was the word I was after to describe what a chapter name should bring. Thank you, Tomas!

I like chapter titles, as long as they know their place. They should stand beside the door of the new chapter and quietly usher you in, not stand in front of you blocking the doorway so that you have to stop and pay attention to them.

A good chapter title is like a book-cover; it should give you a frisson of anticipation, a pre-echo of what you're about to read, and then fade from your mind once you've started reading the chapter proper.

If an author can't deliver all that with a chapter title, I'd rather they just used numbers.

Chris wrote: "I like chapter titles, as long as they know their place. They should stand beside the door of the new chapter and quietly usher you in, not stand in front of you blocking the doorway so that you have to stop and pay attention to them. "

Agreed.

I am rather fond of chapter titles, possibly because the first books I remember reading independently were the Winnie the Pooh books, which had such delights as: "In Which Pooh and Piglet Go Hunting and Nearly Catch a Woozle". To be fair, most chapter titles I have read since then have a long way to go to live up to A.A. Milne's calibre!

Michel wrote: ".. Readers want something new, original ..."

The proliferation of books in long or unending series, and the endless repeats of the same old formats/themes seems to argue against that idea.

I'm all for handling chapters any way you like, but really, how many ways can you present a chapter? The options are fairly limited and have worked without a lot of variation for hundreds of years.

I can't see that a lot of innovation is going to happen, or that mucking around with chapters too much will enhance things. But if you want, sure, go ahead and try.

Sanderson does hilarious thing with chapter titles in his middle grade Alcatraz books. One in which the numbers are completely random and start being replaced by shapes (there are a lot of asides, and jokes for the alert reader). He outright admits to what he does in all other books which is: having the real chapter ‘break’ in the middle of a chapter, with a mini cliffhanger at the end of each chapter to keep people reading. 😆

Micah wrote: "Michel wrote: ".. Readers want something new, original ..."

The proliferation of books in long or unending series, and the endless repeats of the same old formats/themes seems to argue against that idea."

I was going to say the exact same thing. Word for word, even.


Micah wrote: "I'm all for handling chapters any way you like, but really, how many ways can you present a chapter? The options are fairly limited and have worked without a lot of variation for hundreds of years.

I can't see that a lot of innovation is going to happen, or that mucking around with chapters too much will enhance things. But if you want, sure, go ahead and try. "

Like!👍

The most creative use of chapter demarcations I’ve ever seen was in Logan's Run. He used numbers only, BUT he had them in reverse order, counting down from 10. It’s a brilliant gambit because it underscores the theme of time running out as Logan tries to escape. (view spoiler)[And it simultaneously foreshadows the ending, where he gets on a rocket headed for Mars. But you don’t know it’s also a launch countdown until you get to the end. For a book written in 3 weeks, that’s a pretty clever metatextual addition. (hide spoiler)]

The only other creative use of chapter headings that comes to mind is the use of quotes, usually from a made-up book. After a while they can get truly tedious and I routinely skip them, especially those long-winded ones like in Dune, which eschews chapter numbers or headings altogether in favor of long quotes. Creative and unconventional? Sure. Dry and dull? Yep. As Becky says, I just want to get to the story! Stop slowing me down with irrelevant nonsense!

Jack L. Chalker brilliantly subverted this trope in his Dancing Gods series, where every chapter began with a line from a book that laid out the rules of magic, like a Fantasyland law book or something. In those books he doesn’t number the chapters, but uses descriptions, a la Tolkien.

For instance, the first chapter heading is:

ENCOUNTER ON A LONELY ROAD
People taken from other universes should always be near death.
— The Books of Rules, XX, 109, 234(A)

One of the chapters in the second book starts like this:

ON THE CONVENTIONS OF UNCONVENTIONAL CONVENTIONS
It is permissible for a white magician to buy a black magician a drink, or vice versa, without poisoning it.
— RULES VI, 201(b)

Lizzie wrote: ...the first books I remember reading independently were the Winnie the Pooh books, which had such delights as: "In Which Pooh and Piglet Go Hunting and Nearly Catch a Woozle"...

Yeah, those Winnie the Pooh chapter titles really should have had spoiler alerts...

Well, there are three base ways:
-Number only
-Name only
-Both
which I think are the most prevalent.

Of course there are more options, as people mentioned, though probably less frquent:
number + name of character (for multi-PoV)
possibly date for diary-style books
and many more less frequent as people mentioned above.

Some of the Warcraft/World of Warcraft books have a logo of the faction after number as the "name of PoV character".

What can get a bit confusing on first look is what I encountered in my recent reads Blood Song and Tower Lord where the book is split into 5 (4 for second) parts, each having separate intro with different PoV (+ happening at different time) and separate chapter numbering.

Trike wrote: The only other creative use of chapter headings that comes to mind is the use of quotes, usually from a made-up book. After a while they can get truly tedious...

We should probably count our blessings that Tolkien didn't do this in LOTR; he could easily have added enormously long quotes from the huge mass of pseudo-mythology he'd accumulated by that stage. What a snoozefest that would have been.

Talking non-fiction - yes, I like the topic in the chapter to be clear at the start - and ideally there to be sub-headings in text books.
Talking fiction - not that keen - I tend to skip over them and also in sff over the little bit of text that some books have. Which then causes a problem if they are announcing a scene change. It isn't a conscious thing, just a reading habit of straight from the last sentence on the previous page to the first sentence of the same sized text on the next page.

Carro wrote: "TIt isn't a conscious thing, just a reading habit of straight from the last sentence on the previous page to the first sentence of the same sized text on the next page."

That's a good point, Carro. If the chapter titles/stuff at the beginning are more than flavor text, I like it to have something that makes me look at it longer--lower positioning on the page, some sort of graphic etc.

Michel wrote: "I agree that the story is the meat of it, but chapters can be named in a way that makes the reading even more interesting and also more structured..."

I agree. I guess it's a matter of taste... but maybe it's more a matter of the kinds of books we're reading. Maybe Becky doesn't like interruptions because she likes faster-paced stories... maybe I like creative chapter titles because I like bonus juicy stylings.

Cheryl wrote: "Maybe Becky doesn't like interruptions because she likes faster-paced stories..."

Not always, but I do like flow. And I don't like when the book gets in the way of it. :)

All of my novels are standalone, though they share a common thread. I use chapter titles and quotations for each chapter. I agree with the comments before that it can be challenging to title (and add a quote) that give readers a hint but not a spoiler, but I like the challenge.

I believe chapter breaks are an important part of a book. They provide a break in the action for many reasons. Some of the main reasons being: for the reader to look at the clock and decide if they need to sleep.(This is what happens to me), for the reader to reflect for a moment on what they have read, for the author to emphasize an important moment and leave the reader something to leave them thinking.

These are just a few of the many.

I believe that chapter names depend on the genre of the books if it is a fantasy book then including it might be helpful if you are confused on what is going on. If it is a more serious genre then I do not think it is necessary.

Daena wrote: "I believe that chapter names depend on the genre of the books if it is a fantasy book then including it might be helpful if you are confused on what is going on. If it is a more serious genre then I do not think it is necessary. "

I find it interesting that you just dissed an entire genre in a group dedicated to that genre.

Trike wrote: "Daena wrote: "I believe that chapter names depend on the genre of the books if it is a fantasy book then including it might be helpful if you are confused on what is going on. If it is a more serio..."

Plus dissing authors like Dickens or Dumas.

Daena, I note that you're new to GR and don't have many books listed yet. I'm going to cut you slack for being a a newbie and assume that you didn't realize that you were being disrespectful.

I am curious about what you were trying to express. Would you be willing to clarify?