You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion

One of the group reads for April is Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro. Please discuss the book in this thread.

Clément will be leading the discussion.

In order to receive a badge you must:
1. have completed the book before or during April 2018.
2. discussed it in this thread. Discussion must be more than "I read the book and I liked it". Discussion requires something more substantial and analytical of what you read, for example, thoughts, opinions, impact it had on you, what was your favourite part, was it what you expected it to be like etc. You may also like to review the book and post a link to the review in this thread. Please refer to our group spoiler policy for further information.
3. Report that you have read AND discussed the book in the reporting thread (include a brief summary of what you thought of the book).

General Rules:
1. Please mark your spoilers with the spoiler tags along with mentioning what stage of the book you are at so other's don't get a nasty shock. Chapter numbers/titles are generally best as they are the same across all formats and editions. See our spoiler policy
2. The book may be combined with the Year Long Challenge, Topplers, and Monthly Challenges.

Happy reading!

Hello everyone and welcome!

If you want to use this book for your yearly challenge, I konw it fits the Gemini task, Copycat: Read a book from the dystopian genre, or set in the future. The word “Dystopia” needs to be listed as a genre on the main book page.
If you know other categories where the book fits, feel free to let everyone know!

I have read the first part already since I was unexpectedly free and not at home this morning. I will share my thought tonight since I am now busy and not at home!

I am looking forward to all of your comments!

I am also looking forward to this discussion. It is a book that creates polarizing opinions.

I will be reading this, and will hopefully start in three or four days.

I'll start reading it this week. I plan on slotting it in Scorpio-Anti-Venom: stand alone sci-fi. I've never read anything by Kazuo Ishiguro before so I am excited and hope I'll like it.

Here are my thought on the first part of the novel spanning from chapter 1 to chapter 9 (I discuss things in order of interest so not necessarily in the chapter order):

Prepare for very long post, I had a lot of things to say since I read 9 chapters in one go. Sorry ;)

(view spoiler)[First of all, I wondered from the beginning of the first chapter about the donors and carers roles. As it is a Dystopia and, maybe, in the medical theme, I jumped on the idea of organ donation. So, I continued reading with the idea that the students of Hailsham were cattle. This was later confirmed by Miss Lucy in a very direect speech to the children, which surprised me because of the way the staff was. She was my favorite of the staff for how direct she was. When we learned that she left the school I was not surprised since she seemingly went out of bounds (for a staff member).

Like I said, from chapter 1, I thought that the children were being as disposable entities. The fact that the school was isolated from the rest of the world, surrounded by a forest conforted my thoughts. Plus, there seems to be a lot of importance placed on health with weekly check ups and sexual education.

Education did not seem to be the main focus also. The students curriculum consists on Art class, some geography and health studies with no mention of science. I have to admit that I don't see the point of that yet. Art seems to be very important there and the main focus of exchange between students. Plus, some piece are brought to the outside world for exposition. Maybe to be a souvenir from the soon to be donor? I hope, this will be explained further in the rest of the novel.

I would like to focus on some characters now.

I very much like the Kathy point of view as she seems to be very aware of her surroundings. The jumping between the time at Hailsham and the present when she cares for Ruth, and the use of "I" made it feel like a real conversation for me. As a child, she always seemed to be mindful: help Tommy trying not to upset Ruth for exemple. This to me was the cause that made her stay as a Carer for so much longer than the other. Since, organ donation takes a toll of people,I felt like she would be very conforting to be around during those times.

Contrary to Ruth, who, as a child, was very self centered. I felt like she wanted to be the center of the group, creating lies (like the kidnapping situation) and using people, even if she wasn't aware of it. The situation with the pencil case where she rejected Kathy and the moment when she used her, later, to make up with Tommy were very telling to me. Those are the reason I, for now, don't like her very much.

Finally, Tommy is the one who changed the most of the main trio. For his temper temtrum in the beginning, he seems to calm down thanks to Kathy and Miss Lucy. Once again, I fell like Art was in the center of those changes, and once again, I fail to grasp the importance of it. But, in this context, the change of tone in Miss Lucy's speech near the end of Part I is very intriguing and I wonder how the Art aspect of the story will pay off.

The future of our characters seems very bleek. As Miss Lucy said, their purpose is to give their organs, which means that their life will be a short one. (hide spoiler)]

Here are some additionnal thoughts/theories regarding this question I asked myself: (view spoiler)[Where do the children come from? (hide spoiler)] If you don't want that, snce it might be indirect spoilers for the rest of the novel, don't open the next spoiler tag and feel free to read it when you finished the book!

(view spoiler)[First, after the confirmation of organ donations, I wondered one thing: where do they take the children? I have three theories for that:
- There exist in the outside world, breeding farm for the purpose of creating "spare children" for organ donation. That would be reinforced by the fact that like it was said during the sex ed part, sex outside of Hailsham is to make babies. But it would be countered by the same sex ed, because each and evryone of the children are sterile.
That when I thought about the next two.
-The children are created from scratch in laboratories which can explain why everyone is sterile and also why Madam, who collect art for the outside world seemed disgusted when the children were near.
-For the same reason, the children could be clones, which can also explain why Madam is disgusted, since one of the children could be her clone. But if, they need places like Hailsham to provide for organs, I don't think this is likely since, when I think cloning, I think of a copy of a person. Then the problem encountered would be the same in the children. (hide spoiler)]

TrudyAn wrote: "I will be reading this, and will hopefully start in three or four days."

Welcome, you will have plenty of time to read it. Plus, I don't think a lot of people started it yet. It's fine by me since I like to be ahead a little since I read slowly ;)

Vicki wrote: "I'll start reading it this week. I plan on slotting it in Scorpio-Anti-Venom: stand alone sci-fi. I've never read anything by Kazuo Ishiguro before so I am excited and hope I'll like it."

I stopped looking when I found the category I talked about. Yours is a perfect fit too. Thanks for the input!

I've read through chapter 3 so I haven't checked your spoilers yet, Clement.

Donations? (speculation in the spoiler)
(view spoiler)[Well, that is a choice term for it! We don't yet know what it is they are "donating" but I think it's going to be something more abstract than body parts. Creativity, ideas, memories, humanity. souls? Something that takes their life-force since they become less likely to be agitated after 4 donations. Or do they just die after 4 donations? (hide spoiler)]

Late 1990's
Why did the author choose this time period? I don't think it requires a specific time period. Is it to suggest that this may have been happening hidden, unbeknownst to the general public?

I do believe that the late 1990's is significant, Vicki. Just continue with the story and it will become clearer.

Janice wrote: "I do believe that the late 1990's is significant, Vicki. Just continue with the story and it will become clearer."

ohhoh *intrigued*

Vicki wrote: "I've read through chapter 3 so I haven't checked your spoilers yet, Clement.

Donations? (speculation in the spoiler)
[spoilers removed]

Late 1990's
Why did the author choose this time period? I d..."

I should have broke my spoilers a bit more since I read a lot in one go.

I'll second Janice on the importance of the 1990's. I am a little further than my first post, in the middle of chapter 13, and It is getting clearer ;)

Regarding your speculation about donation. It is a very interesting idea. It would fit with (view spoiler)[the emphasis given to art in Hailsham. The Sales and Exchanges between students would be a training of sorts. It would also explain why Madame comes and take some of the children's pieces of art. (hide spoiler)]

Why do you think Kathy was able to (view spoiler)[stay a Carer for twelve years? Do you think it is only because she is good at the job or is there another reason? (hide spoiler)]

I'm somewhere in ch 5 now.

Clément wrote: "Why do you think Kathy was able to [spoilers removed] "

Oh I hadn't thought about that. (view spoiler)[Maybe she doesn't have what they need? Maybe the donors are assigned to a specific person and her person hasn't required yet whatever it is they take. (hide spoiler)] everything is still a mystery.

Vicki wrote: "I'm somewhere in ch 5 now.

Clément wrote: "Why do you think Kathy was able to [spoilers removed] "

Oh I hadn't thought about that. [spoilers removed] everything is still a mystery."

Those are all valid points. I am intrigued by the situation as well. I hope we will get more about that after Chapter 5. Here are my thoughts about that question:
(view spoiler)[To me, I think of this situation in a benefit sort of way. The higher ups, like Hailsham board members for exemple, might saw the situation like a good opportunity to get more out of the Donor. Since they don't lose Kathy, her donation seems to be only delayed for her to care for others, there are no immediate drawbacks. (hide spoiler)]

I apologize if this was already posted. I had a confrontation between my computer and my cat. I think the cat won.

I have a couple theories why Cathy remained a carer for so long.

(view spoiler)[ I think there are more then one type of student. Those created for personal use and those created for profit. I think some were just made so their owner could sell off the bits.

I also think getting them to do art was a way of keeping them calm. If they were bored they could become curious.Curiosity could lead to revolt (hide spoiler)]

Renee wrote: "I apologize if this was already posted. I had a confrontation between my computer and my cat. I think the cat won.

I have a couple theories why Cathy remained a carer for so long.

I think there ..."

In those kind of battle, cats always win but I think its fine as I don't see any double posts.

If Vicki is still around Chapter 5, do you think it's safe for her to read that spoiler?

(view spoiler)[This is a valid point you bring up, especially for the place of art. When student "graduate" from Hailsham at the end of part 1, they are not forced to do art anymore and they do become more curious.

I wonder about the different types of student. I am around chapter 15 and they say that they speculate that they are created using prostitute, drug addittcs, etc, as models. I don't think they would be able to influence the personnality of the students that much. If you suppose that they ressemble the model, psychologically speaking, then the upbriging of the students play a major role in their development. So, to me any of the students could be either of the roles you mentionned. In that sense, they are their own indivial person and only their own abilities matter in that choice.
(hide spoiler)]

I will post two spoiler about chapter 10 through 13 and through 14 to 16 tomorrow since what I talked about is, for me, linked heavily to the event that happened there.

No spoilers here! :)

I read this book about a year or so ago, and at first I wasn't completely blown away by it. That's because it was my first time reading Kazuo Ishiguro.

I read it for the purposes of my English A Level coursework, where we chose a book from a list to read and write an essay of our choice on.

Once I started re-reading the book and really analysing it, I really saw the beauty of Ishiguro's work. He is so subtle in his writing; as if the characters don't want to admit what they know to be true, which seems to be a recurring theme in several of his books (I highly recommend The Remains of the Day).

I wrote an essay with the title: "Examine the view that human beings are 'lured not so much to the present, let alone the future, as to the past'.

Compare and contrast presentations of the past in Tennyson’s poetry and Ishiguro’s Never Let Me Go."

I chose this because of the nostalgic way in which Ishiguro writes. Analysing it and pulling it apart was so interesting and really gave me more depth and understanding of the characters and what they are going through.

Even if you haven't read any poetry by Alfred, Lord Tennyson (you should!), I think this topic is really interesting and I'd love to discuss it with anyone who is willing to listen! If anyone wants to read the essay or part of it (it got an A, a few marks off of an A* I believe; not boasting, just telling you that I did put a huge amount of effort into it and am proud!) then let me know how I can get it out into this Goodreads group as I'm pretty new to Goodreads and don't know the best way to do it!

I'm excited to see what other topics come up on discussing this book, as I really did enjoy it and just writing this is making me want to re read it and talk about it!

Ishiguro has a beautiful way of writing books that get more heartbreaking each time you re-read or re-think about them and discover each deeper layer of the story. That is true writing skill.

Welcome to the group, Charlotte. Your essay topic is quite interesting. Congratulations on getting a great mark on it. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts on this book as the discussion continues.

I don't think there is any way of posting or distributing your essay, if that is your intention.

Janice wrote: "Welcome to the group, Charlotte. Your essay topic is quite interesting. Congratulations on getting a great mark on it. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts on this book as the discussion..."

Thank you! Glad to be here :) Nevermind, I am happy to discuss the topic with anyone that wants to or brings anything similar up.

I think it says on your post that you rated NLMG with one star; if you did, could you explain why? I'd like to hear what you thought of it :)

Feel free to comment on what is already posted! I plan to put two spoiler tag on Part II since I finished it this morning. I love it so far! ;)

I am curious to hear what you have to say about the book!

And, before I forget, welcome to the group! :)

Welcome to the group Charlotte. Yes please do get involved in the conversation.

I am not reading this one with the group as I read it a few years back. I wasn't all that fussed about it and ended up rating it 3 stars I believe. I cannot remember huge amounts about the book now but I remember not liking the writing style and how it was narrated. It felt quite rambling when the narrator kept saying "before I explain this I need to go back and explain something else first". It drove me crazy. Also addressing the reader. I find this irritating. I want to be absorbed in a story to the point where I forget I'm reading. When this happens, it takes me out of the story.

Charlotte wrote: "I think it says on your post that you rated NLMG with one star; if you did, could you explain why? I'd like to hear what you thought of it :) "

My real life book club read it in 2009. The book elicited a strong negative emotional response from me. It made me angry.

I had to really think about what my rating system represents and decided that I generally rate my enjoyment factor. Did I enjoy this book? No. If I rated on the emotional impact (regardless of the favourability or negativity of that impact), I would give this 5 stars. This is the one book that I remember details even 9 years later. I have given 5 stars in the last year to books that I'm hard pressed to remember. It's also the one book that made me re-evaluate my rating system.

Of all the books my real life book club discussed, this one generated the most discussion. We all had similar reactions to the content.

I am just starting chapter 12 now.
Until just recently, I have found myself being frustrated by the writing style, struggling to keep the hopscotching timeline straight.
Arrgh, So many questions . . . (view spoiler)[ an entire section of populace raised for the purpose of organ donation, but why? And, I still have no idea where the children come from, are they bred or created? What is the "gallery," could it be a tribute to a "lost child," or is it a way of selecting donor subjects, or is it nothing more than an income stream for the schools?
If the reaction of Madame to the children is typical of "out in the world normal" to donor, then the carer/donor dynamic completely fits as normals would want to distance themselves from the donor portion of their lifecycle? (hide spoiler)]
Too many questions, not enough answers . . .

Sarah wrote: " ... I remember not liking the writing style and how it was narrated. It felt quite rambling when the narrator kept saying "before I explain this I need to go back and explain something else first". It drove me crazy. Also addressing the reader. I find this irritating. I want to be absorbed in a story to the point where I forget I'm reading. When this happens, it takes me out of the story."

I agree with you completely, Sarah. I am not enjoying the way the narrator is remembering her past to us at all.

I've just finished ch 9/part 1 and I hope it will be better once they've left school.

Clément wrote: "Here are my thought on the first part of the novel spanning from chapter 1 to chapter 9 (I discuss things in order of interest so not necessarily in the chapter order):

Prepare for very long post,..."

About their Education
(view spoiler)[I didn't notice the lack of science but you're right. I think they are only taught what will benefit them in regards to coping with their future. They must eventually see how unfair this world is for them. I think they're given the tools to express themselves with art and poetry so as to cope quietly on their own rather than inconvenience the normals with disruptive behavior. (hide spoiler)]

Speculation about Art (ch 9)
(view spoiler)[Also, I think Halisham is conducting a study on the students. The artwork is being taken as "evidence". There is probably discussion going on outside in the real world about the morality of using these people as organ donors. I don't know why they would have someone who is disgusted with them working with them though (Madam).

I think when Miss Lucy first told Tommy not to worry so much about art she was only thinking of it as a coping mechanism. Now she is too attached to the kids and see the artwork Madam takes as a way to put a stop to the whole donor program and regrets telling Tommy it was unimportant. (hide spoiler)]

I just can't stand this trio
(chapter 15)

(view spoiler)[Ruth is right, she is made from a rubbish model. She is so conniving I do not understand Kathy's loyalty to her and how on earth Tommy puts up with her.

When they were in Halisham it didn't bother me as much because I knew girls who behaved like that in junior high. It was irritating to read but was believable.

But now they're 17 and she is still treating them like garbage; actively coming up with new airs and schemes.
Kathy enables and supports her and Tommy just has no back bone. (hide spoiler)]

Other random things
(view spoiler)[Their freedom is surprising. Why don't they run away?

I was wondering earlier about their last name initials. I think it might be their model code. I don't believe that their models are druggies and convicts though. Or that their models are unique to them. They've probably taken large samples from fewer people to clone the same people over and over again.

It's sad to see them looking for possibles. They are orphans wanting to know where they come from. A lot of this is sad.

I wonder about the suicide rate among clones.

If people are being cloned for organ transplants what else are they being cloned for? (hide spoiler)]

Jenn wrote: "I am just starting chapter 12 now.
Until just recently, I have found myself being frustrated by the writing style, struggling to keep the hopscotching timeline straight.
Arrgh, So many questions ...."

(view spoiler)[Do you think the average normal person knows there are clones?

Maybe people think that organs are donated from the recently deceased.
They would need carers to take care of the donors since normal nurses/doctors wouldn't be able to. We don't really know yet what is involved with being a carer. I had thought it was just comforting the patient but maybe its more medically trained than that. (hide spoiler)]

Like you say, lots of questions still.

Janice wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "I think it says on your post that you rated NLMG with one star; if you did, could you explain why? I'd like to hear what you thought of it :) "

My real life book club read it in ..."

This is so interesting to me!! This makes me wonder how books should be rate then; because to me, a good book elicits a strong emotional response, whether good or bad; it has meaning, conveys a message, or has some other purpose (some books are just entertaining/take you away from reality). This links back to a discussion with someone I was having recently about what defines 'art'. When is something art? When is something a good book? There's no answer, only opinion, but it's a really interesting discussion to have.

All spoilers based on a finished book

I just finished, and have no idea (yet) if I actually liked it, or not . . . based on Charlotte's criteria I would have to say yes. I know I had major issues following the timeline through Kathy's memory recollections, but that did get a lot less jerky in the last third of the book. There are still a lot of unanswered questions, but (view spoiler)[ I think that is as much because the story is told from the perspective of a carer/donor, and Kathy herself didn't have all of the answers. (hide spoiler)]
Education (view spoiler)[ I agree that there were significant holes in the education offered at Hailsham, notably the complete lack of science, and the limited distance covered in the geography lessons. But, in retrospect, I believe that both come back to not teaching the cattle why they are tasty, or teaching them to fly - science would have only raised questions about their existence and broader geography would have teased them with a world they would never be able to see, and the local geography to prepared them to take on their roles as carers. While the art lessons did as Clement and Vicki said, keep them calm and focused, and provided Madame and Miss Emily with the means to support the school and educate the masses about their "students" humanness (hide spoiler)]
(All spoilers based on a finished book)
Vicki made an interesting observation (view spoiler)[ about Madame helping the students and yet still being disgusted by them, and I think there is little correlation between her comfort level directly with the students and her knowledge that there is something morally wrong with their treatment/mistreatment. It's only looking back remembering Kathy talking about her donors that kept asking for stories and details of growing up at Hailsham that made me really think about how bad others had it, that Hailsham was not the norm. (hide spoiler)]
Moral/Ethical (view spoiler)[ This book covers some major moral/ethical issues in my opinion. We already have transplant lists so long that we are dealing with black market organ donation (willing and otherwise), now this society has taken it to the next extreme of growing a solution. But, they are not just using a digital printer or growing the organ, they are growing a sentient being and convincing them that it is acceptable to harvest them. It is a matter of the lengths a society will go to for its own advancement, and the moral character of the individuals within that society. (hide spoiler)]

I've finished it.

I'm giving it 4 stars. I think I would give it 5 only I didn't like any of the characters which dulls the poignancy. I don't think it's particularly fair of me as (view spoiler)[they were raised in a different environment that may stunt certain growth (hide spoiler)] I know I also complained about the story jumping all over the place but I think it was true to the narrator and is how you often remember things/tell stories.

I'm not going into the other stuff just yet but one thing that just seems glaring to me. (view spoiler)[why would they take donations in stages? Isn't it prolonging their suffering. (hide spoiler)]

Vicky here is my theory (view spoiler)[ I believe that the donations were taken as a need arose. They kept them fresh in the clone (hide spoiler)]


Vicki wrote: "I've finished it.

I'm giving it 4 stars. I think I would give it 5 only I didn't like any of the characters which dulls the poignancy. I don't think it's particularly fair of me as [spoilers remov..."

Renee wrote: "Vicky here is my theory [spoilers removed]"
(view spoiler)[ I am in agreement. I know that in our reality there are different lengths of time (some quite short) that each organ can remain viable once the host is no longer supporting it. And, I'm guessing based on their intrigue over the boat that that reality has screwed up the technology of airplanes and helicopters, which would require a little extra planning with regard to location/transport? (hide spoiler)]

Whole Book Spoiler follows.

I read this book in 2012, with another group. I had a very strong reaction to it. Today I went back into that other group's archives and pulled up my comments from 2012. Here they are: (view spoiler)[ I read this book in a few days (June 20-24), and had a strongly mixed reaction. This is the review I posted then:

"I had very mixed feelings about this book. There was a lot I liked, including the point-of-view character's voice, and the way the story was told. I felt like the book was deeply flawed, though. To accept the central premise -- that a society was systematically raising clones purely for use as organ donors, keeping them mostly out of mainstream society, and subjecting them to organ donations until a donation proved fatal -- would require a view of human nature that is completely unrealistic. Are we supposed to expect that, aside from a handful of teachers and philanthropists, everyone agreed these clones were just not human? There was no public outrage, no group to stand up for them, no PETA equivalent for clones? And that the clones themselves were completely passive, and just did as they were told? Tommy clearly had a rebellious streak, but he apparently confined it to having a raging tantrum in an overgrown area. What about the doctors and nurses performing and overseeing all these donations? Do none of them see the clones as human, or have any qualms about removing organs from a "donor" even when the donation will most likely kill the donor? Or is not really "death" if the patient is only a clone? These clones must have been infants and toddlers before they were old enough for places like Hailsham. Infants need a lot of care. Surely some of their care-givers must have bonded with some of the clones. And, moral issues aside, this would be a fabulously expensive system. During the years from 16 to 20 or so (time spent at the cottages for our main characters), these intelligent, able-bodied young people were not expected to do anything to support the cost of their maintenance? The book raises many interesting moral and philosophical questions, but I felt like it did so in a context that was not credible. I kept waiting for the big reveal that would explain how such a world as this could exist, and I never got it."

After further reflection, I have partial answers for some of my own questions. First, I have read somewhere that the author was interested in exploring the concept of duty. In this respect, the clones have real-life parallels in suicide bombers and WWII kamikaze pilots. If a kamikaze pilot somehow survived his mission, it was considered disgraceful in Japanese culture. On the larger question of how society could tolerate this system, I realized Nazi Germany provided a real-life parallel. German law made Jews lesser beings, in effect defining them as not really people, and this allowed the Nazis to treat them as though they were not really human.

Clearly, I had a strong emotional reaction to this book. It is certainly thought-provoking. (hide spoiler)]

Casceil wrote: "Whole Book Spoiler follows."
(view spoiler)[As nauseating as it is to say - it is amazing/appalling what humankind is capable of when it is convinced it is in the right, with or without protests.
And, there wouldn't necessarily be any outcry from the clones themselves, as they were raised with very limited education, and nothing to tell them that it is wrong, just that it is. They have been taught that it is an honor to complete, and when they are getting set up for the fourth donation they are treated reverently, as if it's something to look forward to.
But, I'm also starting to wonder if there is a greater "normal" population elsewhere, and we are only exposed to this area as the story is narrated by a clone? (hide spoiler)]
It's a hard book for me to try to dissect, the injustice gets in the way and just pisses me off.

I'm going back to my cemetery of forgotten books to cool off for awhile.

Vicki wrote: "I just can't stand this trio
(chapter 15)

Ruth is right, she is made from a rubbish model. She is so conniving I do not understand Kathy's loyalty to her and how on earth Tommy puts up with her.

..."

Replying to message 24 and 25 since I have fallen behind. This will serve as my point of view up until the beginning of part 3 as there are a lot of point to speak about.
I am currently at (view spoiler)[the reunion between Ruth, Tommy and Kathy for the boat visit (hide spoiler)].

Education
(view spoiler)[I think the lack of exposure to science is directly due to their nature as clones. As we can see with Kathy, they seem pretty curious, so exposure to science might cause unwanted questions. I do think they have basic knowledge since Kathy talked briefly about math at one point. (hide spoiler)]

Meaning of art vs meaning of names
(view spoiler)[First, I do hope that Kathy get to meet Madam at one point in part 3. I think it would be a great discussion especially with the closure of Hailsham. I can imagine that behind the last chapter of the book.
I mostly agree to the fact that Art was used as a way of keeping the children in line. For exemple, the essay they were supposed to write was never handed in by Kathy. I think most student didn't do it. The second objective of art for me was to keep the children curious. After graduating from Hailsham they had a lot of freedom, with the way they treated Art at Hailsham, they would want to do more since, there, it meant behind selected for the Gallery.
One other use of Art might be to show the outside world that the clone were Humans. Indeed, it is reassuring for people to know that the organ they will get come from someone of the same species. The Gallery might as well be, in the same light as sperm banks are, an organ bank: anonymous Donors are presented and chosen through their creativity.
Meanwhile, the children were not given a last name. This, to me, represent the contrast between the outside world and Hailsham. Last name often tell were you "belong", your family. The clone don't have that since they are created. They do not belong in any family, except the one they make at school. It's almost like they are trying to make the children appear human to the outside world while trying to make they resign to their fate as tools, as Donor.
The last objective of Art to me I will develop in the next point. (hide spoiler)]

On freedom and manipulation
(view spoiler)[It might be farfetched but I think Art was also use as a mean to brainwash the children to they future. Being selected for the Gallery was a priviledge, it meant that your Art was the best. The selection of said Art was fairly random as Madam seemed to never came on a fixed schedule. Plus, I don't think she came to take their Art often.
This look like a donation to me: someone you don't know comes in, takes something that's yours because it's the best one to use for themselves. This is why I think Madam was disgusted when she came in contact with the children. Seeing the person behind the object can be difficult, especially in that case.
This is also why I think they don't run away. When they were told that their purpose was to give their organs, there was no revolt no questions asked. It seems like a normal thing to the children. Kathy said that this idea was slowly put in their mind over the year and I think Art is a part of that process. In that light, there is no need for them to run, they are exactly were they are supposed to be. (hide spoiler)]

The trio
(view spoiler)[I definitely don't like Ruth. It seems like she is always scheming to have her way without a care for her friends. Even as a Donor, she had to change Carers showing that she hasn't changed. I don't she was a good Carer herself with the attitude she displayed.
Kathy think too much about pleasing others. Even if she understand what Ruth did, she still became her Carer, and even then she still gave in to her with the boat visit. I don't she her story ending well. At that point, I don't think any of the clones will survive at the end of the story.
Tommy is too indecisive so it is difficult for me to understand what he is up to. Maybe I will have more insight after the boat scene. (hide spoiler)]

Moral and Ethic
(view spoiler)[In context, stem cells research exploded in the 1990s and we had the first clone in the name of Dolly. This book takes it further by using human clones for the purpose of organ donations.
Even today, transplant lists keeps growing longer and longer. In order to keep a steady supply of organs clones are used for harvesting.
The question for is this one: What makes a human, Human?
Can the clones be considered real or are they just a creation?
When reading the book, we can see that they are able to show emotions, they create groups and produce goods in the name of Art. Plus, as we can see when the trio goes to look for possibles, people don't seem to see that they are clones. Using those points their fate is very cruel.
But, I don't know if I would be able to say the same thing if I was in urgent need of a transplant. Knowledge and context are powerfull things. Would it really matter where the organs come from if it meant you would be able to live longer? Humans can be very selfish in the face of death.

The problem resides in the way the situation is brought. The clone are brainwash to accept the donation situation but the general public don't know that. They are cared for almost the same as a human child would. They have, later on freedom, even if false, to do what they want. In this situation, it is just killing someone for their organs.
If you just want viable organs out of the cloning process, what is the point of caring for the clone to that extent?
Is it, in that context, necessary for the clones to be able to think and act just like a human? (hide spoiler)]

Casceil (view spoiler)[ I found your reference to Nazi Germany very thought provoking. It made me think. Through man's history we have found many reasons to consider others less than we are. We enslave them and we murder them. I wonder if that was how the clones were looked at in this society. (hide spoiler)]

I've changed my rating to 5 star. The thing I keep thinking about is
(view spoiler)[the difference between raising the clones in a more humane environment like Halisham vs more of a factory farm style place. On the surface Halisham seems much better but then I think about how expertly and deliberately they were manipulated and indoctrinated. The use of taboos to keep them from questioning. Their willingness to die for this cause that they don't even understand makes me wonder, were miss Emily and Madam really any better?(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

I finally began reading the book yesterday, and am the end of Part one. Reading spoilers ahead of where I am doesn’t necessarily spoil a book for me. But, this novel has such atmosphere and so much foreshadowing, I don’t want to know anything in advance. So, I haven’t read any of the spoilers above.

My comments and questions, so far: (view spoiler)[

I like the straightforward writing style. Kath appears to be very observant but also quite passive. I wonder why the story is told from her perspective, rather than Ruth’s or Tommy’s. And is she an unreliable narrator?

I also like the subtle unwinding of detail. I can feel the story becoming darker and darker. Knowing that the book is of the dystopian genre, I was surprised to read of the characters’ use of Walkmans and cassettes. I expected the setting to be in the future.

Why is art of such importance? For what purpose does Madame remove the best artwork? Who is Madame and what is the cause of her fear/discomfort around the kids?

If the kids “know but don’t know” their fate, why are they so compliant? If they know they will ultimately be used as donors, what is to stop them from disappearing into general society once they leave Hailsham? (hide spoiler)]

TrudyAn , you are smart to avoid spoilers. I loved the shock of the stories twist. I hope you do too.


TrudyAn wrote: "I finally began reading the book yesterday, and am the end of Part one. Reading spoilers ahead of where I am doesn’t necessarily spoil a book for me. But, this novel has such atmosphere and so much..."

I’ve finished reading the book and have read the comments above. The book is both disturbing and thought provoking. I enjoyed the first-person narrative, and thought the pacing was great, with Kath slowly revealing more and more detail to the reader.

(view spoiler)[ It’s distressing that Kath feels fortunate to be allowed to be a carer for 11 years. She, like the others, unquestioningly accepts her fate. The population at large also fully accepts the situation (how did that come about?). At first I thought that Madame and Miss Emily were working towards ending the program, but even they were trying only to improve the clones’ experience.

The characters, for the most part, were unlikeable, though it didn’t detract from the story. The clones seemed to feel the full range of human emotion but this seemed to be unsettling at times. Their acceptance of their hopeless situation didn’t elicit the reaction one would expect (rage, hopelessness, despair). How much of a role did nurture (vs nature) play in this? What does it mean to be human? What is death?

I’m uncertain how much benefit the education program had for the clones. While this provided them with some purpose and a sense of self-worth, even a bit of kindness, was this for the benefit of the clones or to ease the conscience of society? Of course, there were also institutions that didn’t treat the clones as kindly. Just how much do members of society, as beneficiaries, know/want to know?

I am still having trouble fathoming that an entire group can have the knowledge of what their future holds, have the freedom to escape from it, but fail to do so. It’s also distressing to think that a society can turn a blind eye to such an atrocity (though of course history has shown that to be possible). (hide spoiler)]

I just started the book last night and got to the end of Part One. I could not put this book down. I think the overall mystery and the questions that kept popping into my mind really made me keep reading.

I've read some comments but on my iPad spoilers are removed so I haven't seen any details. I do agree that some of the characters aren't very likeable (view spoiler)[ but I almost feel that their upbringing had something to do with that. If you were raised for that sole purpose (donations) and in that manner I think it would have an effect on your personality. (hide spoiler)]

The jumping around in the storyline hasn't bothered me since many people tell stories this way as they are remembering things. I wonder if she also does this as she puts the past puzzle pieces together for herself.

So many questions still (view spoiler)[ about how Hailsham came to be created and how "students" come to be there. I think I understand what their purpose is in terms of donations and get what it means for them to "complete" but the reason behind it all is still a mystery. I'm also interested to know why they need to be carers before they begin their own donations? (hide spoiler)]

It's a snow day here so I'm going back to reading. Will hopefully have this finished later today. If my spoilers didn't work please let me know.

Carla wrote: "I just started the book last night and got to the end of Part One. I could not put this book down. I think the overall mystery and the questions that kept popping into my mind really made me keep r..."

Welcome! I hope you will enjoy it until the end. Regarding your questions, I can only say this for now: keep reading! ;)

I finished the book this week end but it was difficult to collect my though about it. This is a very interesting book and the one that made me think the most. Even though, like most people pointed out, the characters were for the most part unlikeable, I still enjoy Kathy's point of view. I gave it 5 stars.

Since we talked a lot about this book during the book-choosing phase, after finishing it, do you still think this book fits the medical theme?
I think the book still fits the medical theme, even though (view spoiler)[we almost nothing about the medical science behind the clones. The medical theme was an excuse to explore deeper themes. (hide spoiler)]

First, about the narration. For me, I like the type of narration use here. The jumps between fashback and present time didn't bother me and it felt like Kathy (view spoiler)[was telling us her story (hide spoiler)]. After finishing the book, do you think that we, as the reader, (view spoiler)[are supposed to be Kathy's Carer? To me, I supposed in the beginning, after learning about Donors and Carers, that we were one or the other. But, after the ending I lean towards the Carer (hide spoiler)].

I was pleased that we had more explaination about Art. Those couple of chapters might have been the most important of the book. (view spoiler)[After the explanation by Madame and Miss Emily, the tone shift quickly to give us quite a dark ending. I was for the most part right about the Gallery and why they use Art to keep the children occupied and prove to the outside world the humanness of the clones (hide spoiler)].

The talk about Art leads to important discoveries about Hailsham and (view spoiler)[how clones are viewed in the outside world.
Seeing how, in real life, people reacted to Dolly in the 90s, I was not surprised by the outside world views of the clones here. I find it quite horrifying that people need proof that the clones are indeed able to express human behaviour before finding it acceptable to harvest them to completion.
Talking about completion, I found it very ironic and sad that they use "complete" as the term to refer to their death after the last donation since it is the only moment in their lives where they are the least complete.

Seeing how miss Lucy was fired after telling the children that they were created for the purpose of donating their organs, the children were not supposed to know that until the end of their time at the Cottage (probably). Even though I am all in about the idea to use cloning to create organs, I think the methods used were no the good ones.
Hailsham was bound to close anyway even without the scandal as I don't think taht raising children whitout them earning any money is viable, especially when they are at the Cottage and are virtually "doing nothing" (hide spoiler)].

Seeing the evolution of Kathy and other Hailsham student was very interesting as well. (view spoiler)[Compared to the group dynamic that we see from Hailsham and the Cottage, it seems like it is when the students become carers that they are the most alone. We see the toll that it take on other students even though Kathy seems unaffected in the beginning. Seeing her relationship grow with Tommy was very bittersweet especially when reaching the end of the book. When she goes back to Norfolk, she seems to compare her memory of Tommy to the trash drifting in the wind before "driving off to wherever it was I was supposed to be". It was a very depessing end. (hide spoiler)].

Clément wrote: "Carla wrote: "I just started the book last night and got to the end of Part One. I could not put this book down. I think the overall mystery and the questions that kept popping into my mind really ..."

Thank you Clement. I didn't quite get finished last night but I'm almost there, and like you said, "just keep reading". Most of my
suspicions have been confirmed. (view spoiler)[The students are raised strictly to be organ donors, which is what I suspected all along. As well, once I learned about the possibles (people they were cloned from) I put that together with the date and connected it to Dolly from the 1990s. The debate during that time was fierce so I can see this story being an extension of the fear that people felt when they considered where this type of discovery could lead. (hide spoiler)]

I thought the explanation of the art was an important element. (view spoiler)[I figured it had to do with keeping the students busy and giving them some focus but didn't clue in to the fact that they were trying to prove to the rest of the population that these clones did in fact have the same human qualities (or soul) as everyone else. I'm not sure if this would make it easier or harder to accept that they were giving their lives for the regular population. (hide spoiler)]

I really really disliked Ruth's character by the time they were in the Cottages but that didn't change my opinion of the book. You can love a book without loving the characters. I think having a character that you feel strongly about either way means the author has done something right.

I'll post again when I finish the book.

Jenn wrote: "I am just starting chapter 12 now.
Until just recently, I have found myself being frustrated by the writing style, struggling to keep the hopscotching timeline straight.
Arrgh, So many questions ...."

I felt the same way at that point Jenn. I was enjoying the mystery of it but at the same time thinking, Wow I have a lot of unanswered questions for being this far along in the book. It does become clearer although you may not be satisfied with the answers.

Clément, just wanted to say you're doing a great job on your first time as discussion leader! I hope you're enjoying it :)

I agree with Peggy. This has been a very enjoyable discussion. Thank You Clement.

>Peggy wrote: "Clément, just wanted to say you're doing a great job on your first time as discussion leader! I hope you're enjoying it :)"

@Peggy and @Renee:

Thanks! I try my best I am glad to know that at least some people enjoyed what I had to say.
I think it would have been harder to keep up if I hadn't started the book a little before. I am glad I finished the book I was reading at that time at the perfect moment :)

Carla wrote: "Clément wrote: "Carla wrote: "I just started the book last night and got to the end of Part One. I could not put this book down. I think the overall mystery and the questions that kept popping into..."

(view spoiler)[This topic was indeed a huge one, but I do think it it more frightening that the people in the book need proof that they were human before deeming it acceptable to harvest them for organs.
You can clearly see the fear of the public with the incident that caused Hailsham demise. The work of the scientist on isolating specific genes could have been a huge help in preventing hereditary disease.

I also didn't like Ruth much but I think Tommy was a little relatable. His last tantrum before the forth donation was like the last struggle of a dying man to me. It was quite sad to see. (hide spoiler)]

Clément wrote: "Carla wrote: "Clément wrote: "Carla wrote: "I just started the book last night and got to the end of Part One. I could not put this book down. I think the overall mystery and the questions that kep..."

Oh I agree with you regarding Tommy. I felt that part was very moving. Overall I give the book 5 stars. It kept me reading and made me feel some very strong emotions and made me really think about the issues the characters were facing.

Only a few people have posted in the reporting thread so far. Don't forget to do so in order to get your badge!

I regret coming late to the discussion because there is so much to unpack in this book. I just finished last night.

First, I will add my praise to Clément for excellent discussion leadership! Thank you. I'm not sure I have much to add, but I'll try.

I read without benefit of any advance preparation aside from the description on the back cover, and the genre categories of science fiction and dystopian on the goodreads listing. As the story unfolded, I kept thinking of its parallels to (view spoiler)[ slavery and animal rights. Slaves were not considered fully human by those who exploited them and this was accepted by majorities in slave-holding societies (I'm thinking primarily of the U.S. South). Animals are used/eaten in almost every culture. In both cases, dissenters have raised objections in various degrees. One level of dissent seeks to improve the condition of the exploited. Slave owners might claim to treat their slaves kindly (in their view), refraining from whippings and providing more humane living conditions than other slave holders. Animal protections will advocate for humane living conditions before the livestock is slaughtered for food. Then there is another level of dissent, which is to argue the practice shouldn't exist at all. Abolitionists. Vegans. I think the difference between Miss Emily and Madam was on their level of dissent. Miss Emily sought merely to improve the lives of the clones; Madam's reactions of disgust and fear made me think she was a lonely abolitionist, knowing the system was irredeemable but powerless to do overturn it. (hide spoiler)]

Morality was such a dominant theme of the book that the absence of (view spoiler)[ nearly any reference to religious is puzzling. There was the scene of Kathy having a quiet moment in the churchyard, but no apparent activity at or interest in the church. Given the intense reaction from religious authorities on cloning, stem-cell research, euthanasia, etc., it seems Ishiguro must have made a pointed decision to leave that perspective out. Was the churchyard scene an indicator that religion is dead, a relic, in the clones' world? (hide spoiler)]

I'm also thinking of the discussion about ratings. I've generally been in the same place as Janice, downrating a book if I didn't enjoy it. Sometimes I've been impressed by the quality of the writing and viewed the book as a literary achievement, but held back a star because it gave me no pleasure. Most recently, The Underground Railroad fit into that category. I'm tempted to do the same here, except that I'm so in awe of Ishiguro's skills as a novelist that I just can't do it. 5.