SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Are superhero novels (which I classify as a subgenre of SF) popular?

Most of them are Fantasy since they violate pretty much all known natural law. I don’t know about general popularity, but I sure like them. (If they’re about original superheroes rather than literature versions of comic book characters. I’d rather just read the comics in that case.)

My list: https://www.goodreads.com/review/list...

Sure, you can look at it that way. But IMHO science is the overriding factor. Most superhero concepts are based on science, even if the idea of, for example, yellow suns, enabling one to leap tall buildings in a single bound is rather....unscientific :D

Are they popular? I'd have to say unquestionably! In fact, the market is growing again quite consistently. They're also the basis of huge movements like webcomics and movie franchises.

http://www.comichron.com/yearlycomics...

Do you mean are they mainstream? If that's the question, I think they're getting that way. They're lagging behind videogames, but I'd say they're about as accepted as board games these days.

I think they are starting to get popular. I love superhero fiction. Like Trike, I prefer new superheroes. We get plenty of exposure to the comic book superheroes, so it's nice to have new stories in another medium.

I think Brandon Sanderson writing the Reckoners series will go a long way for making it more popular, because he's the first really big name to do a super hero series (unless you count the short stories by George R. R. Martin). It's still a relatively new sub genre, so I think we will see more in the future.

I'm not into the movies or comics at all, but I did get a kick out of After the Golden Age. That novel felt 'mainstream' to me.

Ghost wrote: "Sure, you can look at it that way. But IMHO science is the overriding factor. Most superhero concepts are based on science, even if the idea of, for example, yellow suns, enabling one to leap tall ..."

None of the science makes sense, though, which means it’s all Fantasy. That veneer of Science Fiction doesn’t change the impossibility of the underlying story, and impossible = fantasy.

Science is just used to justify the goings-on; it’s the proverbial spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down. Even the least educated among us realize that we live in a very technological society, so by saying “because science!” it makes the utter impossibility of the superpowers palatable.

I mean, in the Ex-Heroes series the Superman analogue, St. George the Mighty Dragon, got his powers from being hit by a meteor and doused in chemicals. In reality that combination of events would have resulted in a concussion and skin rash, not bestowed him the power of flight, super strength and the ability to breathe fire. Almost all superheroes are that level of silliness.

That doesn’t make them any less entertaining, but it sure isn’t anywhere near Science Fiction.

I love superhero novels because they usually have an end. Comics are great, but decades of stories bring a lot of soap opera elements. Original characters in a novel allow for a Doomsday level character without having to de-power him in later issues because a weaker character has to take him on.

I think there are elements of both Science Fiction and Fantasy in most superhero fiction, but most of it leans towards Fantasy to me. I think there can easily be purely fantasy superhero books, but there can't be purely Science Fiction superhero books.

There are some pure science fiction superheroes, but they usually fit in to a universe full of fantasy superheroes. In the Ex-Heroes that Trike mentioned, people get powers in a variety of ways, and there is even someone with a technologically advanced combat suit. So the suit is Sci Fi, but most of the others are purely impossible.

Bobby wrote: "I think there can easily be purely fantasy superhero books, but there can't be purely Science Fiction superhero books.

There are some pure science fiction superheroes, but they usually fit in to a universe full of fantasy superheroes."

Agreed.

I can’t think of a book which has a purely Science Fictional superhero but if we were to look at The Dark Knight as a standalone story where Batman exists in a world without any other superheroes, that could be an example of an SF superhero.

He’s using high tech gadgets and cutting edge materials, but nothing outside the realm of possibility. The Scarecrow uses a chemical that induces hallucinations while the Joker just uses military weapons. Two-Face stretches it a little bit because it kind of seems like his eye would fall out, but that’s about as close as we get to “impossible”.

But definitely once you stick Batman into a world where Superman and Wonder Woman exist, all of his sci-fi tech takes a backseat to Diana’s supernatural origins and Clark’s frankly impossible abilities, and it all becomes Fantasy.

I see most Superhero stuff as Fantasy. Unless it’s something like Guardians of the Galaxy which is set in space then I might classify it as Science fiction. Batman might fit into scifi (and the original Batman is on Syfy at the moment every afternoon at 2 here in Australia). And so might Superman since he is a being from another planet. There is a lot of science type stuff in Marvel but you have gods in there as well so overall it’s fantasy.

So in conclusion I’d say yes superhero is a sub genre of science fiction/fantasy and I love it. I’m not sure that more people are reading the comics or novels though but they are turning out in droves for the movies based on the superheroes. I finished Wonder Woman Warbringer this week and it was great. Not sure if I want to read the Batman one though I’m more a fan of campy, funny Batman than dark and brooding Batman. I grew up watching and reading the comics about Superman and Batman and the Phantom among others. I loved the Justice League. Never used to read Marvel but I love the MCU. Also loved Archie and I’m not sure about this new TV version of Archie but I digress since he’s not a Superhero.

Now I’m waiting for The Incredibles 2 to hurry up and get here. Oh and Avengers Infinity War of course.

Anyone looking for more superhero novels, this site reviews new releases: https://superheronovels.com

Is Jessica Jones SF or not? Don't remember any supernatural part.

What about Ironman? All of his super abilities comes from his suit of armor, so I would tend to classify him in the sci-fi realm rather than in Fantasy.

Michel wrote: "What about Ironman? All of his super abilities comes from his suit of armor, so I would tend to classify him in the sci-fi realm rather than in Fantasy."

On first blush, I would’ve said SF too, but the armor works like magic.

(I think I said all of the following in the Black Panther movie thread, so this will probably be a repeat for anyone who followed that discussion.)

In the comics, Iron Man’s armor works by author fiat. Sometimes it’s invincible (heh), sometimes not. In the movies, the rule is pretty clearly one of “powered armor = pretty good protection; unpowered = doooom.”

Tony only gets hurt when the power on his armor is low or off. In the first Iron Man film he gets shot out of the sky by a tank and augers in to rocky ground, creating a crater deep enough that he has to climb out of it. He is unscathed, whereas in reality he would’ve been turned into juice. In Captain America: Civil War, War Machine falls from a lesser height and makes a shallow impression in softer soil yet he ends up crippled. The difference is powered v. unpowered. That holds true throughout the movies.

During his first flight in the Mark II armor Tony got a bump on the head, when in reality he would’ve ended up with massive concussion and probably a broken neck. At least. Many of the falls and hits Tony and Rhodey experience should kill them outright, but we accept it doesn’t because “armor = protection”.

It looks like sci-fi but isn’t really. I think the proper subgenre for the Marvel movies is Hard Fantasy. The world has rules which are followed pretty consistently across all the films, but they wouldn’t work in our universe.

Silvana wrote: "Is Jessica Jones SF or not? Don't remember any supernatural part."

The Jessica in the TV series considered in a vacuum, probably. She does things like jump out of a third story window and that kind of strains credulity, but I can squint and call that SF.

Killgrave’s power is virus-based, and that one is problematic. I mean, it’s not entirely impossible and I suspect they based it on the fungus that turns ants into zombies. Problem was that his power to persuade people was almost instantaneous, and that part is impossible. A virus needs time to replicate in the body before it reaches a tipping point, and the immune system is fighting it every step of the way, eventually creating antibodies to neutralize it. In the comics his power is pheromone-based, which makes more sense. That would give you immediate effect. However, it limits his ability only to people in his immediate vicinity and it wears off. A virus gives him long term control and makes him a greater threat. It just wouldn’t work as shown.

Of course, she exists in a world that has magic, notably Iron Fist, so overall it’s Fantasy.

The comic book version of Jessica is straight up Fantasy, because she can fly.

Superheroes are the superhero genre, which doesn't have to violate laws of science or even, technically, not be mundane fiction. The hallmarks of the archetypal superhero are the crime-fighting, the code names, the superpowers, the flashy costumes, and the grabbag origins.

Especially the last.

If you have a series with powered armor suits, it's SF; with wizards, fantasy; with extraterrestial aliens living among us, SF; with shape-shifters, fantasy, but your superhero universe usually has all of them, even if it always has a metaorigin to link them.

I recommend The Cloak Society trilogy, the Wearing the Cape: A Superhero Story series, and Forging Hephaestus currently the only book in its series.

More here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/list...

Talking about superheroes....Did you see that Catwoman is the next in line for the DC icons series after Batman and Wonder Woman? Sarah J Maas has penned this latest instalment. I read Wonder Woman last week. It’s by Leigh Bardugo. I rather enjoyed it.

Thanks, Trike.
I forgot about the world she's in. Like non-Jedi led Star Wars novels are fantasy because they are Star Wars.

Well, I guess superheroes are almost always fantasy.

Having them be their own genre probably works most logically because they run by different criteria than fantasy. Your superhero wizard, for instance, often run on completely different and immiscible sorts of magic.

Mary wrote: "Superheroes are the superhero genre, which doesn't have to violate laws of science or even, technically, not be mundane fiction. The hallmarks of the archetypal superhero are the crime-fighting, th..."

Mary wrote: "Having them be their own genre probably works most logically because they run by different criteria than fantasy. Your superhero wizard, for instance, often run on completely different and immiscib..."

Ooh, immiscible, nice pull.

Superheroes don’t have to be SFF. Zorro, The Phantom, The Spirit, The Green Hornet and The Lone Ranger are just regular fiction, for instance, but they tick all the boxes for superhero: secret identity, code name, costume, hidden lair, etc.

I don’t usually distinguish between types of magic except for subgenres. Even then there’s no reason why a story can’t be both Hard Fantasy and Science Fantasy at the same time. The former just means the internal rules are consistent while the latter has that overlay of high tech.

Star Wars is Science Fantasy but not Hard Fantasy because each new creative team gives Force users new powers that have never been hinted at before. Same goes for the tech in that universe; it varies by author/filmmaker.

Mary wrote: "Having them be their own genre probably works most logically because they run by different criteria than fantasy. Your superhero wizard, for instance, often run on completely different and immiscib..."

Could they be considered Urban Fantasy, then? Tell me Harry Dresden isn't a "superhero wizard?" :-)

Would demons and angels be also part of Urban Fantasy?

Trike wrote: "Michel wrote: "What about Ironman? All of his super abilities comes from his suit of armor, so I would tend to classify him in the sci-fi realm rather than in Fantasy."

On first blush, I would’ve ..."

There it is, Hard Fantasy. I love it.

Peggy wrote: "Tell me Harry Dresden isn't a "superhero wizard?" :-) ."

He isn't a superhero wizard. Because he doesn't live in a superhero universe. Dresden-verse is all magic, all the time.

Peggy wrote: "Could they be considered Urban Fantasy, then? Tell me Harry Dresden isn't a "superhero wizard?" :-) "

Dresden doesn’t have any of the other tropes of superhero fiction.

Superheroes don’t have to live in cities, although most do. People = crime, and most people live in cities.

The Phantom lives in the jungle, as does Ka-Zar (and about 50 other jungle heroes). The Lone Ranger roams the open prairie (See also: Two-Gun Kid and a couple dozen others). The Raven and other First Nations heroes live on various reservations. Tomahawk was from a small village during the Revolutiinary War. Zorro lives in a small town; so does Squirrel Girl. Swamp Thing and Man-Thing live in swamps.

Mary wrote: "Peggy wrote: "Tell me Harry Dresden isn't a "superhero wizard?" :-) ."

He isn't a superhero wizard. Because he doesn't live in a superhero universe. Dresden-verse is all magic, all the time."

Would that be the difference between Harry Dresden and Dr. Strange?

I don't have strong feelings about this either way - the phrase "Superhero Wizard" made me think of Harry, who would totally dig being called a superhero wizard.

Yeah. Dr. Strange hangs out in a universe full of mutant powers, aliens with powers, guys in powered armor, guys with serum granted powers, etc. etc. etc.

Y'all, please remember that this thread was started to discuss the popularity of superhero novels. This is all fun, but I think the OP had an idea of what they were hoping to learn/debate, and maybe this isn't quite that ;-)

Allison wrote: "Y'all, please remember that this thread was started to discuss the popularity of superhero novels. This is all fun, but I think the OP had an idea of what they were hoping to learn/debate, and mayb..."

I will point out that Ghost also moved on from his original question and character-developed it. So we have the OP’s tacit go-ahead.

Besides, we settled the earlier question with a definitive “We don’t know.” The fact so many people are debating it seems to indicate that the answer is probably yes.

As for staying strictly on topic, good luck with that. A couple quotes come to mind: “It’s like herding cats.” — Anonymous, and “Get used to disappointment.” - Dread Pirate Roberts

Trike wrote: "Allison wrote: "Y'all, please remember that this thread was started to discuss the popularity of superhero novels. This is all fun, but I think the OP had an idea of what they were hoping to learn/..."

Yes, Trike, I know you prefer the natural evolution of threads. There are several threads that allow for that. But as a successful cat herder, dedicated magician of other's disappointments and a mod, I'll at least try to remind people what the point was after several days' wandering in threads that are more focused :)

Ghost, feel free to update the conversation with your other questions/thoughts having read this. I'll also set up a thread for the endless genre wars so that people can debate any book or genre they so choose.

I find that, often, when I really like a book or a movie or a TV show, it turns out it's got a "superhero" in it, even if it's not really in the superhero genre. Examples=Buffy, Supernatural, and Miles Vorkosigan (yes, he is physically weak, but his mental powers are enormous).

So, you see, my problem is finding books in other genres with a protagonist that has superhero charactaristics.

Discussion? Book suggestions? Or shall I quietly slink away?

Everyone prefers that. Which is why they always stray off-topic. It just seems fruitless to try and King Canute it.

But this one didn’t really, since the genre thing was implicit in the OP.

Kateblue wrote: "I find that, often, when I really like a book or a movie or a TV show, it turns out it's got a "superhero" in it, even if it's not really in the superhero genre. Examples=Buffy, Supernatural, and M..."

Don't slink away! You may want to start a "looking for recommendations" thread--I find some people who are great at recos don't dive into the genre rifts quite as much. And it'd certainly be easier to find if, as the one of the herded cats would like, this just becomes a free for all lol

Seems that most supers novels are aimed at a YA market (for the most part).

Are there any good new alternatives?

Ghost wrote: "Seems that most supers novels are aimed at a YA market (for the most part).

Are there any good new alternatives?"

The Wild Cards series and Prepare to Die! are pretty adult, not just in content but also with their themes. I’m pretty sure Devil's Cape is not YA.

Nothing wrong with reading books for the YA market Ghost Whistler. I read Wonder Woman Warbringer by Leigh Bardugo last week and it was really good.

I’m currently reading Throne of Glass by Sarah J Maas and it doesn’t read like a kids book but it comes out of the YA section of the shop. Same with Isobelle Carmody books.

There are actually a lot of YA books that you wouldn’t pick as YA books that are screaming up the bestseller charts and are being read by everyone. They’re far from being kids books. They’re adult books in a lot of cases.

Of course, I'm speaking for myself. I generally don't care for YA books. But then i'm not YA.

There are always exceptions :D

Are there any other suggestions for superhero novels not aimed at YA? I was real excited for a series, but quit after book one because it was yet another teenager superhero tale. I found an indie author who had a geriatric superhero team, but it also had too much plot armor for my tastes (though the humor was pretty good).

Anything closer to The Boys end of the spectrum without being THAT much?.

Forging Hephaestus by Drew Hayes

Hard Magic by Larry Correia is a bit less certainly in the genre but you might like it.

For Kateblue:
- The Book of the Ancestor series starting with Red Sister could also be seen as a superhero story, since the girls are selected for their inborn mutant superpowers (extra speed, etc.). It's also Fantasy and Science Fiction (explaining why would be a spoiler), but it's definitely not YA (even though it initially has children/teens as main characters), neither in themes nor in content. So anyone looking for that superhero feel should check it out.
- Moon Called, while Urban Fantasy, also has a superhero feel (you'll see what I mean) with werewolves and skinwalkers as superheroes protecting humans from villains, especially as the series progresses. It's definitely not YA; Mercy has more of a mama bear protecting her (adopted) cubs vibe for me.
- On Basilisk Station - Honor Harrington is definitely a superhero-type character (she's a genius tactician, modeled after Admiral Nelson).
- Haven't read it yet, but Trail of Lightning also sounds like what you're looking for. :-)

Thanks for the recommendations. Any more? I'm interested in actual superhero stories versus stories/characters with a superhero vibe. Secret identities, hidden lairs, arch enemies, are what I seek, but with more brutal punches and a real risk for death and trauma too. Dark fantasy superhero stories. I've come across a few; I'd like to learn more. Thanks.

Phillip wrote: "Thanks for the recommendations. Any more? I'm interested in actual superhero stories versus stories/characters with a superhero vibe. Secret identities, hidden lairs, arch enemies, are what I seek,..."

I have one with plenty of death and trauma, but it's also mostly comedic in tone. So there's plenty of dark things happening, but it's so ridiculous that the humor overpowers those things to some extent. The first book is The Rules of Supervillainy if you still want to try it.


The Wraith is the first book in the Superhero by Night series, which is a spinoff series that is very dark. I don't want to give anything away, but let's just say that this one is what would happen if The Punisher had super powers. The original series that eventually crosses over with this is the Full Metal Superhero series, starting with Arsenal. I will say that you will get more out of it if you read this series too, but it isn't vital. However, the very end of book 8 of the Arsenal books introduces the main character of the Wraith books, and then book 4 of Wraith and book 9 of Aresenal are crossovers. These books are all pretty short and have tons of action.

You might be aware of Ex-Heroes, which is a mix of a zombie apocalypse story and a super hero story. It's pretty dark as you would expect a zombie story to be, but I really liked how the super heroes were tied into it.

The Harbinger Tales is a book about 2 people who get taken to an alternate Earth and are inexplicably given super powers. That is a thing that happens periodically on that Earth, and the people there are prepared for it. It's not quite the traditional superhero story with the normal dynamics of villain and hero, but it still has a lot of those elements, and I think it is exactly the tone you are looking for. The first book works pretty well by itself, but the second book ends with a lot of things left unresolved. It definitely ends the major plot point, but the story is obviously not over and the 3rd book isn't out yet.

I just bought Superheroes Anonymous to add to my pile of books I won’t get to for years. It has sequels, Supervillains Anonymous, as well as others in that vein.

Bobby wrote: "Phillip wrote: "Thanks for the recommendations. Any more? I'm interested in actual superhero stories versus stories/characters with a superhero vibe. Secret identities, hidden lairs, arch enemies, ..."

Great recommendations. I've had a few on my TBR for some time.

Which hero is best suited to stop COVID-19? Taking away godlike characters such as The Spectre and Franklin Richards.

Beast, he's a legit doctor so he can make a vaccine.

I think that for a vaccine, we would want a character who can just create disease. I know they exist, though I don't remember any names.

Just create an attentuated form of it, and you have a vaccine without the lab.

Healing powers would also work.

Let's not forget villains. Mr. Sinister would be right at home with a problem like this.

I recently read After the Golden Age and really enjoyed it. It might be something you'd like.