Christian Readers discussion
End Time Events
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Was Jesus prophecy scripturally accurate according to almost all of the religious EXPERTS in Jerusalem? And yet it was.Prophecy is almost always messy and ambiguous AND accurate. So with that in mind...
Not much of a Thief In the Night if it's obvious, or predictable, or at the middle or end of the tribulation. And if someone's a preterist: then it all happened already - and there's really no prophecy at all.
There's no mention of a Church in the tribulation (just Israel). Where'd they go?
I read all of Revelation recently. I realized there is seldom a timeline (occasionally).The account jumps back and forth through time and history. Often repeating biblical events and scenarios.
But The End is the end: Great tribulation, Millennium, final rebellion, judgement, eternity.
This is indeed a "can of worms". If you get 100 great theologians in a room to discuss this, by the time you've spent twenty minutes your notepad will be full and you really will have 100 different points of view on various aspects of timing and events.I know people try to use "scripture against scripture" to arrive at an answer, but I go to ancient Hebrew understanding and expectations. You have to know the particulars of Jewish wedding. You have to know a great deal about the seven churches of Asia Minor. And you have to have a total grasp of Spiritual nuance and prophetic interpretation to have a coherent argument. I guarantee your argument, any argument will be met with blowback from a number of credible authoritative sources. I wish you the best, but I only engage in lengthy studies on this topic. Personally, I think the Left Behind series is close to Biblical trash.
Jennifer wrote: "I know I'm opening up a big can of worms, but my series is based on end times events and I want to make sure I get it as scripturally accurate as possible."I applaud you wanting to be as scripturally accurate as possible :D Seems to me though there are several views that are within the realm of orthodoxy. Meaning as long as you picked one of those and were faithful to how it's interpreted from Scripture you should be good. And it seems the pre-Trib view is most prevalent today at least in the US. So, that would be the least "controversial".
"I've read the "Left Behind" series, and I have to say that I do not agree with a lot of the events or timing lined out in the series. I believe it is not scripturally accurate enough according to Revelation and supporting passages."
Yeah, I read multiple books in that series, and I do think it has some issues.
Eric wrote: "You have to know the particulars of Jewish wedding. You have to know a great deal about the seven churches of Asia Minor. And you have to have a total grasp of Spiritual nuance and prophetic interpretation to have a coherent argument. "Very good points. I think there are many things that are very relevant that are missed, overlooked, or misunderstood because of lack of understanding of the Jewish perspective, culture, religion of the day.
I fully enjoyed the left behind Fictional series. They sure did their homework. But it was similar to a comic book version of the end times. (They didn't even include Donald Trump as the Anti-Christ. Sheesh!)
Mod
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things .
24 But in those days, after that tribulation , the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
I agree! All valid points! I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any major advice, lol.I'm already probably going to be burned at the stake for my view on heaven! That's the issue I was referring to earlier about the subject I've researching.
I'm pretty convinced we don't go to Heaven as soon as we die, still looking for convincing evidence otherwise, but That's a whole different can of worms all together!
Jennifer wrote: "I agree! All valid points! I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any major advice, lol.I'm already probably going to be burned at the stake for my view on heaven! That's the issue I was referri..."
Have you ever read The Great Divorce?
Jennifer wrote: "No I haven't. Never heard of it."You should then. An interesting concept of Heaven and Hell. A fictional supposing. It doesn't have your idea, about not going immediately after death, but it is different and interesting.
Alexandra wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I agree! All valid points! I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any major advice, lol.I'm already probably going to be burned at the stake for my view on heaven! That's the is..."
But I just looked it up and I'm going to get it! Can't believe I've never heard of it before... then again, I don't I've ever read any of C.S. Lewis before.
But I'm going to read this one!
Jennifer wrote: "I don't I've ever read any of C.S. Lewis before."What??!!
I'm sorry, we can no longer be friends. LOL
The Chronicles of Narnia is a must, but it's not quite the same going into it for the first time as an adult. Mere Christianity is really, really good. The Great Divorce I liked for the ideas, but it did take me a bit to get into it, and it's not really like his other fiction. His Space Trilogy: Out of the Silent Planet / Perelandra / That Hideous Strength is really good too, he mixes up Christian ideas in a Sci Fi story. But that took a bit for me to get into as well. Oh, and The Problem of Pain. Good stuff. I don't agree with everything he presents, but he does get you thinking, and makes good sense much of the time.
He does have some other stuff too, but I haven't read it (yet).
Anyway, The Great Divorce should give you some things to mull over regarding Heaven :D
Jennifer wrote: "I'm pretty convinced we don't go to Heaven as soon as we die, still looking for convincing evidence otherwise, but That's a whole different can of worms all together! "I have played around with the idea a bit that unbelievers may, at least sometimes, have a bit of a "limbo". Not purgatory.
As far as evidence otherwise for believers, how's this:
"But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:40-43
The rapture could be after the tribulation AND unpredictable if the “seven year” tribulation is just metaphorical.......
Alexandra wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I'm pretty convinced we don't go to Heaven as soon as we die, still looking for convincing evidence otherwise, but That's a whole different can of worms all together! "I have pla..."
Well, I have an answer for that one. This is another of those issues I've found. I truly believe that the comma is in the wrong place here. I think it should read "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."
The original Greek did not have punctuation, so it was later added. Why do I say this? Because when Jesus arose 3 days later, he told Mary that he had not yet ascended to the father.
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” - John 20: 17
If he wasn't in paradise, then why would he tell the thief that. I would much rather think that man later put the comma in the wrong spot than Jesus may have misspoken.
He does use the word "paradise" here, even in the original Greek texts and not "heaven". But when you look at the context of "Paradise", it is regularly interchanged with "heaven" throughout the New Testament. So you would have to assume that it is the case here as well.
But I am still digging on this subject. I have more evidence supporting rest until the second coming, and then Heaven, than I do Heaven now.
Jennifer wrote: "Alexandra wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I'm pretty convinced we don't go to Heaven as soon as we die, still looking for convincing evidence otherwise, but That's a whole different can of worms all toget..."Interesting :D
Jennifer wrote: "He does use the word "paradise" here, even in the original Greek texts and not "heaven". But when you look at the context of "Paradise", it is regularly interchanged with "heaven" throughout the New Testament."I'm really enjoying the great thoughts in this thread. Not to be a menace again, but language is important. You're right, here. I love the idea of the misplaced comma, but "paradisos" used by Luke was a walled, bordered, or constricted garden or court in common understanding. The thief would (did) end up in Jesus' secure blissful beautiful court!
My bigger issue is always the employment of the term heaven. Hashamayim as used in the creation and elsewhere is open space wherein ha'aritz, or matter, exists. God created 1) time, 2) space, and 3) matter. It was tohu v'bahu, without formless and devoid of operational meaning until he continued to act on it.
Outside our material space/time continuum, or when it is consumed, that which is beyond/above physical constitution will assume its place back in the spiritual realm.
This complies with all natural and physical laws EXCEPT the first law of thermodynamics, which would have to have been violated ONE TIME for everything to be established in its present form in April 2018 awaiting its final disposition according to those same laws. That says NOTHING about old earth/young earth, evolution, or Biblical historicity. But it lends itself to God's sovereignty and Scriptural inerrancy.
Technically, I don't think heaven is built yet. It's main city is sure not lowered down and occupied.But wherever Jesus IS: that's his kingdom and Paradise.
Eric wrote: "The thief would (did) end up in Jesus' secure blissful beautiful court!"Jennifer wasn't questioning that. What she's wondering is if he ended up there immediately, if we immediately go to Heaven upon death.
Rod wrote: "Technically, I don't think heaven is built yet. It's main city is sure not lowered down and occupied.But wherever Jesus IS: that's his kingdom and Paradise."
I agree with that. That's another point that makes me think that we are not in Heaven yet.
When Jesus was about to leave the disciples for the last time, he told them that he was going to prepare a place for them. So that he could "come again and take you to myself".
2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way to the place where I am going.” - John 14: 2-3
So Jesus says that He has to "come again and take you to himself". But as far as scripture says, Jesus was never physically seen again after that moment. The Holy Spirit descended after that.
It kinda gives me a new insight to what Jesus says after that:
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. - John 14 : 6
It kinda makes me think that there may be a slightly different meaning here that we haven't completely explored yet. Jesus is the only way unto the Father. We can not get there on our own. I don't think that just means spiritually as in a believing sense. I think it could possibly mean that our spirits can not physically get to Heaven without Jesus. Wherever Heaven is, we can not get there. Jesus has to come back and get us and physically take us to wherever it is. Of course, this is all just theoretical.
The few people that didn't see death like Enoch and Elijah, both were physically "taken". Something had to come get them to take them.
But again, just speculation.
One particular passage that I've been looking into a lot on this subject is Revelation 6 : 9- 11 and Revelation 7 : 9 - 10.
" 9 And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those having been slain for the word of God, and for the witness which they had. 10 And they cried with a great voice, saying, Until when, holy and true master, do you not judge and take vengeance for our blood, from those dwelling on the Earth? 11 And there was given to each one a white robe. And it was said to them that they should rest yet a little time, until might be fulfilled also the number of their fellow-slaves and their brothers, those being about to be killed, even as they. Revelation 6 : 9 - 11 (interlinear)
And this is yet again another of those places where most translations are slightly different from what the Original Greek says. The original Greek states "under the altar", whereas most others say "before the altar". (I think KJV got this one right though) But this again, can drastically change the meaning.
If it is "before the altar", that would imply that it is on the same level as the altar, just in front of it. Meaning the souls would be Heaven.
But if it is "below" the Altar, then they are not in Heaven. If we know that for us Heaven is up, then one would have to assume that we are "below the altar" here on Earth.
These souls are told to "rest yet a little longer". And these weren't just any souls, they were souls that had been slain for the word of God. So if they aren't in Heaven yet, then I would certainly think that other believers would not be also.
That's why in my original post, I stated that I believe the rapture is between the 6th and 7th seals. Because right after that:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7 : 9 .
Here are those same souls in the white robes, and they now appear in Heaven in great multitude. Before this point, the only mention of beings in Heaven other than the Father and the son, the 24 Elders in Revelation 4, the beasts, and the multitude of angels.
Again, in Rev 5, he restates those that are in Heaven:
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands. - Revelation 5 : 11
So, human souls are not specifically mentioned. Even the 24 elders. I suspect they may be Arch Angels, but again, just speculation. I have no scriptural evidence to support that theory.
That's just one other example of what makes me believe why we don't go to "heaven" until the second coming of Jesus. But I still have more! ;)
Jennifer wrote: "Rod wrote: "Technically, I don't think heaven is built yet. It's main city is sure not lowered down and occupied.But wherever Jesus IS: that's his kingdom and Paradise."
I agree with that. That'..."
Interesting. I'd quibble on a couple things First, our spirits aren't physical. So, while I understand what you're getting at by saying "I think it could possibly mean that our spirits can not physically get to Heaven without Jesus. Wherever Heaven is, we can not get there. Jesus has to come back and get us and physically take us to wherever it is." it doesn't really make sense. Perhaps "literally" would be a better word there. We do know we won't be given new physical bodies until the end, so until then, whatever happens to our spirits in the meantime, they are not physical.
And this, "If it is "before the altar", that would imply that it is on the same level as the altar, just in front of it. Meaning the souls would be Heaven.
But if it is "below" the Altar, then they are not in Heaven. If we know that for us Heaven is up, then one would have to assume that we are "below the altar" here on Earth."
I certainly would not make that assumption, and don't see that assumption is one that would "have to" be made.
But you've obviously given this a lot of thought and study, and it's interesting to hear what you're thinking about this. :D
You're absolutely right. "Literally" would be a much better word. I know that our spirits aren't physical. Poor word choice.My Bad!
The assumption of "Before" or "Below" the altar wouldn't have to be made except for the sole purpose of determining when we are in heaven. Only for this particular determination does it even matter "where" they are. But because that was my purpose, then the wording does indeed matter I believe.
Standing on its own, I don't believe that it is enough evidence to support my theory of not an immediate trip to Heaven after death, but when paired with the other pieces I have, I believe it does add to the puzzle.
But that's just my thoughts!
Jennifer wrote: "The assumption of "Before" or "Below" the altar wouldn't have to be made except for the sole purpose of determining when we are in heaven. Only for this particular determination does it even matter "where" they are. But because that was my purpose, then the wording does indeed matter I believe."But since you feel an assumption must be made for the purposes of your theory, you said 'one would have to assume that we are "below the altar" here on Earth."' and I don't see that at all. Unless you mean one must assume that in order for it to fit your theory.
If that's what you meant, then I am following you, although I think it's not good to make assumptions in order to fit a theory, but rather to study what it does mean and if it doesn't fit a theory then so be it. Or, if several meanings are possible from the context and language in that instance, looking to the rest of Scripture for what "must" or "might" be the right one.
I'm I following?
"Standing on its own, I don't believe that it is enough evidence to support my theory of not an immediate trip to Heaven after death,"
I don't think it's evidence of it at all, but I'm willing to listen to ya and try to follow what you're thinking, regardless of how right I think it is, or not :D And shoot, I could learn something. I'm willing to give consideration.
Have you thought yet about the issue of Abraham's Bosom, and where Jesus was and what He did the days between His death and Resurrection?
Mod
James 2:26 - "For as the body without the spirit is dead , so faith without works is dead also."
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I am not sure about the existence of Heaven yet... but I do know that immediately upon my being absent from the body (i.e. dead)... that I will be present with Jesus.
As long as I am immediately in the Presence of Jesus... I guess I don't care if it is called Heaven or not!
Alexandra wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "The assumption of "Before" or "Below" the altar wouldn't have to be made except for the sole purpose of determining when we are in heaven. Only for this particular determination do..."Yes you are certainly following! Thank you!
And I am completely open minded and am very aware of the fact that I may be wrong! That's why I love discussions!
And you are absolutely right. The word should not be twisted in order to fit a particular theory in one way or another. I don't believe that I am making it fit my theory, more as I am examining and pointing out how it does add to my theory. I'm not changing what it says, merely "emphasizing" if you will.
Robert - That passage is the only one that I have found that trips up my theory, and I have to be very careful with this one. Because like Alexandra said, I do not want to, nor do I intentionally ever twist the meaning of the word to fit my own theories. Moreover, I want to examine what it says and use it as it was meant to be used. I certainly DO NOT want to be the one to add to or take away from the Word of God!
This passage is the only one I've found that throws a kink in my theory. And so I've accepted that my theory is just that. I can't 100% say I believe that we don't go to Heaven immediately after death because of this passage. More like 90% belief we don't!
Of course I can explain why I feel this isn't 100% proof that we DO go to Heaven immediately, but I don't because I don't want to chance that I may be unintentially construing the word. Being right isn't worth that chance to me. I don't want to ever lead others away from the TRUE Word of God.
I will however present those theories for discussion! :)
Jennifer wrote: "Yes you are certainly following! Thank you!"Whew! good :D
" I'm not changing what it says, merely "emphasizing" if you will."
Well, since I've never heard any Biblical teaching about that phrase meaning what you're saying it means (to fit your theory), I'd quibble with that. But I'm willing to hear you out :D
Alexandra wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "Yes you are certainly following! Thank you!"Whew! good :D
" I'm not changing what it says, merely "emphasizing" if you will."
Well, since I've never heard any Biblical teaching..."
And please don't think I'm trying to prove anyone or any teaching wrong. I'm not saying that at all! Like I said before, I'm very aware of the fact that I may be completely wrong on this one. This is just some of the things I've run across during study and research and I think it makes for interesting discussion. Makes us think a little.
The good thing is, topics such as this do not determine our salvation or where we spend eternity so long as we believe, accept, and follow Jesus. The end result is still the same, eternity with Him in Heaven. Doesn't matter when!
Just curious... What are your thoughts on Hebrews 11 : 36 - 39? This is another of those passages that leads me to believe that it is not immediate, but it's likely because I've never heard any other explanation for it.36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned to death, they were sawn in two,[l] they were killed by the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, persecuted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect. - Hebrews 11 : 36 -39
Jennifer wrote: "Just curious... What are your thoughts on Hebrews 11 : 36 - 39? This is another of those passages that leads me to believe that it is not immediate, but it's likely because I've never heard any oth..."In the time I really searched the issue the only passage I found that affirmed (I had thought - not ignoring what you've now said about it) that we go immediately to be with Jesus (and assuming Heaven), at death was the thief on the cross. As far as I knew Scripture was pretty silent on the issue. Although I do think the issue of Abraham's Bosom and Jesus' time between death and resurrection may have some illumination, which is why I brought that up.
As far as a contrary view I haven't looked into it, so am just here to listen to what you have to say. I may poke holes here and there, but I'm not gonna try to present a view or debate yours :D
Absolutely! I'm looking into Abraham's Bosom as well.This is going to be an odd question... but did Jesus go to hell in the time between the death and the resurrection?
I ask because my husband and I both have this idea, but we have no idea where it came from. I can find no scriptural evidence of it. My only guess is that we have heard it preached or spoken on at some point, but neither one of us can figure out where we heard it. Is there any scripture that supports that or has anyone ever heard that?
Mod
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Philippians 1:21-25
21 For to me to live is Christ , and to die is gain .
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
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Why would Paul desire to depart and be with Christ , if he were not going to be with Jesus ?
If the "soul sleep" theories are accurate and that is what Paul believed... why would he want to die?
Paul was extremely evangelistic ! I cannot imagine him greatly desiring death and then sleeping for thousands of years... while he could be preaching the Gospel as long as he lived.
Mod
My response: The notion of Jesus going to hell comes from a couple of verses...
Ephesians 4:9 - "(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"
Revelation 1:18 - "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
The theory is that Jesus went to hell (descended to the lower parts of the earth) and took the keys of hell and death from satan.
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This is NOT a view that I hold to. None of the words translated as "hell" are used in Eph. 4:9... and it is assumptive to think there are literal "KEYS" that Jesus need to take from satan.
Jennifer wrote: "Alexandra wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "The assumption of "Before" or "Below" the altar wouldn't have to be made except for the sole purpose of determining when we are in heaven. Only for this particular..."Hi, interesting discussion. I would like to offer a couple of thoughts. It may be possible to be under the heavenly altar and still be in heaven. In chapter 12 the woman has a man-child in heaven that is taken up to the throne. The woman doesn't come to earth until 12:6 if the wilderness is on earth. I presume it is since the dragon comes to earth in 12:9 and persecutes the woman. So you can be in heaven and be taken up it seems.
The key to the souls in 6:9 might be the rest in 6:11 if it is the same sort of rest as in Hebrews 3 and 4. Revelation is full of figurative language so I remain open-minded.
Jennifer wrote: "When Jesus was about to leave the disciples for the last time, he told them that he was going to prepare a place for them. So that he could "come again and take you to myself".2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way to the place where I am going.” - John 14: 2-3"
For your research look up pollai monai, the Greek term used for dwellings, rooms or mansions. You will find it is like an apartment or "dormitory". The Latin equivalent used by Roman soldiers was a temporary barracks.
Evidently those who enlist get sent to boot camp for training for a thousand years before getting their assignment and following their leader into battle when he "returns with His troops."
I wouldn't call it Purgatory or Limbo. But it's not the Heaven some allude to.
Also, pay attention to where heaven is Heaven in the Bible. There is a subtle difference again in the original language. Good luck with your project.
Wait, luck is for pagans... I pray your project is "blessed".
Jennifer wrote: "This is going to be an odd question... but did Jesus go to hell in the time between the death and the resurrection?"No. The idea comes, I think, from phrasing used in the Apostles Creed, but what is meant by "hell" there isn't what we think of as Hell, but more Abraham's Bosom.
This is just off the top of my head, but as I understand it Jesus went to gather those who had died prior to His death, so collecting those who were His but lived/died prior to the act of Redemption. But no, they weren't in Hell. These would have been the saved from the OT, etc.
Alan wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "It may be possible to be under the heavenly altar and still be in heaven. "Yes. The common belief I was taught was that those believers it's referring to are in Heaven. Doesn't mean that's accurate, but that's a common idea, and until now I've never seen anyone suppose anything different.
Alexandra wrote: "Alan wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "It may be possible to be under the heavenly altar and still be in heaven. "Yes. The common belief I was taught was that those believers it's referring to are in Heaven..."
I agree. If the souls in 6:11 are in heaven, then what are the implications for the "little season" and the souls of 20:3-4? The little season is only mentioned twice in Revelation.
Alan wrote: "Alexandra wrote: "Alan wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "It may be possible to be under the heavenly altar and still be in heaven. "Yes. The common belief I was taught was that those believers it's referr..."
Very good question! I'm not sure on that one. I admit I still have a whole world of studying left!
Lots of fun stuff.I don't think Lazarus and the Rich man is necessarily a historical account. It might be a prophecy of 2 or more things and events with an adjusted timeline. (Since the man is judged and condemned to hell already.)
I've heard that Abraham's Bosom and the chasm between it and "hell" are not actually considered heaven and he'll, but are just a holding place until the final resurrection... kinda like purgatory I guess.of course I'm still digging into this subject as well, but as you say, it would seem that like you said, they would have had to been judged in order to determine which side of the chasm to be placed on. I am under the impression that all judgement takes place at the same time on the day of judgement, although I am currently listening to a book by Brian Godawa that may suggest otherwise.
Jennifer wrote: "I've heard that Abraham's Bosom and the chasm between it and "hell" are not actually considered heaven and he'll, but are just a holding place until the final resurrection... kinda like purgatory I guess.of course I'm still digging into this subject as well, but as you say, it would seem that like you said, they would have had to been judged in order to determine which side of the chasm to be placed on."
I haven't done an indepth study of it, but that's not how I understand it.
I understand Abraham's Bosom was the holding place for the righteous dead prior to the act of Redemption being fulfilled. So, no, they wouldn't need to be judged for which side they go to, anymore than any true believer now would. And there are two judgements, one for the just one for the unjust. Those who were to be saved from prior to the Resurrection would be in the same category as those who are saved after the Resurrection. Believers are not judged in the final judgement as to if they are saved or not saved.
After the Crucifixion Jesus went to gather the souls in Abraham's Bosom, because the act of Redemption for them was now complete. They were redeemed.
I could be wrong, but that's how I understand it.
Very good explanation! Will certainly be doing more research on it!
Jennifer wrote: "Very good explanation! Will certainly be doing more research on it!":D
Jennifer wrote: "Very good explanation! Will certainly be doing more research on it!"I think of that place as the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22) which Paul said is the mother of us all (Gal 4:26). It's like the barn where the wheat is gathered (Mat 13:30) at the end of the world (Mat 13:39,40).
Christian Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
The Problem of Pain (other topics)The Chronicles of Narnia (other topics)
Mere Christianity (other topics)
The Great Divorce (other topics)
Space Trilogy: Out of the Silent Planet / Perelandra / That Hideous Strength (other topics)
More...
There was such a great response to my previous question about "Lucifer" and the input was phenomenal! Very intelligent and source-based information!
So I have another question, and this one is research for the series that I am writing, so please do not hold back in your input and expose any holes in the theories I propose! I want to get answers from every view and why.
My question is: What are your views on the "Rapture". Do you believe in a physical catching up? If you do, what are your thoughts on the timing? Is it before, during, or after the "Great Tribulation"? Do you have any theories on the events that will take place?
I know I'm opening up a big can of worms, but my series is based on end times events and I want to make sure I get it as scripturally accurate as possible. I've read the "Left Behind" series, and I have to say that I do not agree with a lot of the events or timing lined out in the series. I believe it is not scripturally accurate enough according to Revelation and supporting passages.
My theory is that there is a physical "catching up" or rapture when Jesus returns and believe it takes place at the 6th Seal of Revelation or between the 6th and 7th seals, in that time frame. The seals are the "birth pangs" The 6th Seal is the beginning of the rapture, the 7th seal ushers in the Great Tribulation and God's wrath.
Any thoughts?