Our Shared Shelf discussion

Thank you for starting this thread. I think accountability is a great topic for this group especially with our last few books in mind.

thinking of some discussions that have occurred around Why I'm No Longer Talking To White People About Race and Heart Berries, I would like to add another thought to this discussion: are we as the current generation accountable for the actions of our ancestors? a little clarification: are we accountable for the actions of our race who died long before we were born?

I don't think we are. That's not saying we should disregard the actions of our ancestors. Quite the opposite, we need to acknowledge and learn from those actions. But how can you be held accountable for something you had no say in?

Ashley wrote: "Thank you for starting this thread. I think accountability is a great topic for this group especially with our last few books in mind.

thinking of some discussions that have occurred around Why I..."


As I've mentioned in other threads if by our ancestors you mean those who put us on reserves or in residential schools. Some of those people have died in this generation. Some are still living. I feel that even if our ancestors died before us we should still be accountable for fixing the problems they left.

Hmmm, interesting topic. I like it.

But i do have to wonder this, who gets to decide accountability? The last two posts bring totally different perspectives with differing viewpoints. Personally i agree with Ashley in terms of accountability regarding the past. I dont think that today's generation needs to be accountable for their ancestors, but we do need to learn from it. And by learning i mean EVERYONE needs to learn from it and not hold today's generation hostage because of it.

But clearly there will be people who disagree with that view.

" It is not your job to dismiss anyone's opinion because it is said in anger or just because it is not yours,"

So again who gets to decide that? Being a white straight male on here i often see generalizations regarding not only my race but my sex. Where is the accountability with false generalizations? We humans can be stubborn and steadfast in our stances often times without any wiggle room. I see very little accountability in those cases but simply choose not to engage in the conversations because of how polarizing it can become. See how problematic that can be?

I spend most of my time on OSS reading people's stories and their conversations. But at times some opinions and viewpoints make me shake my head out of frustration. There are often times a lot of finger pointing and not much understanding on both sides of the given topic. When it comes to accountability it should always be a two way street. So who gets to decide when accountability should be applied? Being a male in a Feminist book club does that mean that i should keep my mouth shut when i see things said about my race or sex? Not picking on you, just generally curious as to how accountability should be addressed not just in OSS but in society as well.

While i agree on principal about accountability i do notice that people try to cherry pick when and where they decide to either use it or apply it to other people.

Ashley wrote: I don't think we are. That's not saying we should disregard the actions of our ancestors. Quite the opposite, we need to acknowledge and learn from those actions. But how can you be held accountable for something you had no say in?

Hmmm. Could you explain what you mean be held accountable in this instance?

James wrote: "Hmmm, interesting topic. I like it.

But i do have to wonder this, who gets to decide accountability? The last two posts bring totally different perspectives with differing viewpoints. Personally ..."

You raise some very good points. The way I see it, everyone needs to be accountable for their own actions. You being a male in a feminist book club by no means means you need to keep your mouth shut. Feminism is about gender equality. It's as much about men as it is about women. If someone calls a person out on something they said, they should take that into consideration and weigh it with what they said and what they meant. If their words were misconstrued, then they should explain and work out with the other person exactly what each is meaning (I actually did this in a thread with one of the members when we each misunderstood the other, and it all worked out in the end. It also didn't take that many posts for each of us to understand the other). I think today there isn't enough self monitoring. We aren't willing to hold ourselves accountable for anything.

Pam wrote: "Ashley wrote: I don't think we are. That's not saying we should disregard the actions of our ancestors. Quite the opposite, we need to acknowledge and learn from those actions. But how can you be h..."

I mean that should we be blamed for the actions of those who came before us? I am talking largely about Native Americans being assimilated and then put on reservations, and, before that, owning slaves (and slaves were more than just black, those are just the only ones that really get recognized today). I'm talking about any and all conquests that have happened leading to how society is today. Any and all mistreatment from one peoples to another that lead to where we are today. Should the current generation be help responsible for what happened when they were not alive when that happened nor did they have a say in the matter.

Keith wrote: "I have always been of the opinion that you are can only be accountable for your actions, or the actions of others, where you have the authority, and can therefore be held responsible, to start some..."

That was very well articulated and I agree with you. I don't think we are responsible or accountable for the actions of those who came before us, but we should learn from them and we should strive to better the societies we live in.

I want to add to your last bit, "I am not sure whether it is a lack of humility, where we, as individuals, refuse to accept we are in the wrong, or a lack of accountability that causes some of the problems and clashes." I think it's a combination, and I think a lack of understanding one another is another factor in this. It's a large part of the reason I posed the question "are we accountable for the actions of those who came before us?" There is a lot of blaming of the descendants and demanding of the descendants to fix the problems of the ancestors. But the problems that have been left us can't be fixed by one side of the equation. Both sides have to work together to fix things. And part of that is working to understand one another and where each side is coming from.

Ashley wrote: ". I mean that should we be blamed for the actions of those who came before us? I am talking largely about Native Americans being assimilated and then put on reservations, and, before that, owning slaves (and slaves were more than just black, those are just the only ones that really get recognized today). I'm talking about any and all conquests that have happened leading to how society is today. Any and all mistreatment from one peoples to another that lead to where we are today. Should the current generation be help responsible for what happened when they were not alive when that happened nor did they have a say in the matter. .."

This is a privledge conversation, is it not?

White people have the ability to say - my ancestors (3-4+ people removed) did this, not me
Indigenous people as Krystal pointed out - my family was effected -within 1 person removed and are still being affected.

Neither group is wrong. Both perspectives are correct.

We keep saying things like we acknowledge and let's move on working together. But we have to first acknowledge that pain was given AND is still happening.

I'll give an example. Redlining.

Because of practices done from people in the 50's, African Americans live in improvised neighborhoods and we're denied funding to improve their lot. Homes alone affect your health (live too close together, live close to factories, or homes built before aspestos was banned or lead in paint befire it was discontinued), financial prowess (can't use your home as capital) and even opportunities ( can't get a high paying job if you don't have funds to purchase a car to drive there so you make with what's do)

The ripples of that injustice still affects the upperward mobility of multiple generations.

How does that affect you? Well... You now have blighted communities. Tax burdens that make us resentful. Illerate population. Gangs. Health issues so severe that that's where all your tax money is going to. Etc etc.

You and your family on the other hand may have been given a loan. May have had opportunities for improvement because banks saw the color of your skin and took a chance on you. Because your family had a working parent(s) who could afford to go to school for a better job than a trade or factory work. you had food in your stomach which allowed you to concentrate on your studies, to get passing grades, to show that education standards may be in your future.

Yes! You probably did work your butt off. Your family probably worked their butt off to get you where you are now. But somewhere you benefited from a practice that favored your family over someone else. You are on a step( 5 steps) up the ladder.

How can you begin to help the population get over it and come together to fix it if you don't peel back the layers and understand what happened was because of continuous favoritism.

And how can the current population get people to listen to them when the ones are responsible are dead? You are here. You can listen. And you can help them after you understand the whole complex issues- from where it started to how you benefited.

Because we're not asking that you donate $x or give up a job you had for a poc.

We're asking that while you acknowledge you didn't do this thing, that you look how you benefited from it. And look if the system in place still only allow you to benefit. Then if you really honestly want to help ... You start calling out those structural legislation and restrictions that continue to cause problems.

Pam wrote: "Ashley wrote: ". I mean that should we be blamed for the actions of those who came before us? I am talking largely about Native Americans being assimilated and then put on reservations, and, before..."

I understand what you're saying and I'm not arguing that we shouldn't do something to help change things. I'm not saying we are not willing to help. What I'm saying is it is hard to help someone who just wants to blame you for everything. I live in an area where Native Americans are the majority of our diversity. When discussion are attempted between peoples, anything that could possibly come from the discussions gets derailed by finger pointing and resentment instead of working toward understanding and making plans. I've grown up with resentment being thrown at me for being white and "look at the injustices of what happened to people because of white people." The arguments I hear are never about how things can be improved and what needs to be done to help. It is about blaming and finger pointing. That is where this question of accountability comes from. I am not responsible for the choices of my ancestors. No, that does not mean I should not work to better society today, but it also does not mean that I should be blamed for what has happened. We cannot make progress if real discussions of what needs to be done do not happen. We cannot make progress if the only interaction is an argument over who is to blame. Yes, white people of the past are to be blamed for what has happened now. I am not a white person who made that decision. I am a white person living with the consequences and getting berated by the resentful victims and descendants of those victims. What good does this resentment do anyone? How does finger pointing help anyone? How can anything be accomplished if we can't discuss the issues without arguing about who's fault it is?

My apologies.

I hear excuses when this sort of conversation comes up. " I didn't do that! "

What you're doing is starting a conversation/ a relationship on the defensive. "YES, BUT..."

And if you truly want to work on this... Truly want to put an end to this... Admit that fault happened and ask how you can help make it better.

Cause your inconvenience of being affiliated with slavers or the trail of tears is NOTHING compared to the agony of living through it and dealing with the continuous affect of it.

Pam wrote: "My apologies.

I hear excuses when this sort of conversation comes up. " I didn't do that! "

What you're doing is starting a conversation/ a relationship on the defensive. "YES, BUT..."

And if y..."

You're missing the point entirely. I do admit fault happened. I do ask how I can help make it better. I also recognize the fault is not mine. I understand and recognize there is continues struggle and agony. I recognize there are changes need to be made to better society. I recognize these changes need to come from both sides. The change on the other side is a simple one. Stop throwing resentment at white people for being white. How can anything happen, how can you answer the question "What can I do to help as white person?" if all you see is someone to blame for your position? The discussions derail because that question is not answered. The discussion is derailed because the only thing that comes from it is finger pointing.

You say I keep using the defensive, "Yes, but", and yet you do the exact same thing, by saying yes I experience hardship, but you experience more. And you know what? There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with you saying that, just as there is nothing wrong with me saying yes, there was fault, but that fault is not mine. You speak as if everything is clean cut, black and white. Something bad happened to People A by People B, so the descendants of People B will always be at fault. But it's not that simple. Nothing is black and white and nothing can be accomplished by one side fighting while the other waits for everything to happen around them. No matter what, there two sides and both sides must participate in the ways they can.

You talk about staring conversations/relationships, well what kind of relationships is built on one person doing all the work to make things right while the other yells foul?

You accuse me of not accepting facts while ignoring my words - ignoring that I am accepting the facts and offering more - and you disregard the facts I offer. You misconstrue my words, accusing me of not wanting to be associated with things like slave owning or the trial of tears. I never said that. I said I don't like being blamed for things I had no control of. Should I be associated with these things personally? No. And I'm not. But I am constantly blamed, personally, for the conditions of Native Americans today. And that's not right. Just as it's not right Native Americans have to endure those conditions presently.

If you want to look at history so badly, why don't you include the bigger picture. Look at any other culture that was conquered and how it ended for that culture. Those cultures are obliterated. The Native American culture was able to hold on because of the reservations. Was what happened right? No. Were the reservations a perfect solution? No. But what is a perfect solution? We need to work to make what we have now functional. We need to work to put things on an even playing field. We can't undo the past. We can't "make it right." We can only try to make what we have now better.

Ok:

We're both invested in this. So much so that we are replying to each other's comments at the same time the other person is posting. Difficult to hold a conversation on a website as is. But we have pretty much shouted over each other at the same time.

So I do apologize, I didn't see your comment #9 when I was adding/typing #10. I was summarizing my feelings from my comment #8.

My next comment will go over what you posted in #9. That way we can start over and both address what the other is talking about.

Pam wrote: "Ok:

We're both invested in this. So much so that we are replying to each other's comments at the same time the other person is posting. Difficult to hold a conversation on a website as is. But we..."

I apologize for getting heated. This is a topic very close to home. As I said, I live where the majority of our diversity is Native American, and I've seen the effects of the reservations as well as the differences between people raised on the reservations and people raised in the wider public.

I do seek to understand all sides and want to hear and participate in discussions regarding this, but I find it hard to do so when all I'm told is "it's all your fault" and I'm never given real discussion or perspective.

I will await your next reply and be sure to respond only with a level head.

Let me address the issues in #9.
- What I'm saying is it is hard to help someone who just wants to blame you for everything. I live in an area where Native Americans are the majority of our diversity. When discussion are attempted between peoples, anything that could possibly come from the discussions gets derailed by finger pointing and resentment instead of working toward understanding and making plans. I've grown up with resentment being thrown at me for being white

Living in these areas are no joke. I'm sorry you grew up in an environment that had a lot of issues that were dumped on you while you were still making sense of the world.

I'm a big proponent that children should be children. But children have an innate capacity to pick up on emotions and to witness actions that adults do not. And then worse, the do not have the capabilities to make sense of these items nor to act on it or communicate it.

Realizing you are no longer a child, but the product of that environment, I'm glad that you are coming to OSS and having this conversation from a place of inquiry and not outright dislike - which would be the norm.

The arguments I hear are never about how things can be improved and what needs to be done to help. It is about blaming and finger pointing. That is where this question of accountability comes from.

I see

We cannot make progress if real discussions of what needs to be done do not happen. We cannot make progress if the only interaction is an argument over who is to blame. Yes, white people of the past are to be blamed for what has happened now. I am not a white person who made that decision. I am a white person living with the consequences and getting berated by the resentful victims and descendants of those victims. What good does this resentment do anyone? How does finger pointing help anyone? How can anything be accomplished if we can't discuss the issues without arguing about who's fault it is?

You're absolutely right. Look how hard it was here for us to hold a conversation? And I'm not even a product of that environment!

My recommendations is to bring in a professional facilitator, ask for peace leaders to come forward (normally religious) or work with the non-profit or government entity that handles relations like that.

Has something like that happened in the past?
Or do you or someone else in your community have the desire to heal this rift? Reset the bone, as it were, so that the community can heal together and work together for the benefit of the community?

On the individual level: people are so very angry. You are for growing up in that world, they are for growing up in that world. It's a no win situation. Both sides are hurting. And the side is acting out.

So I think the next question if both sides are hurting than who starts the conversation? I think it's the one who has the power. They have to be humble. They have to make an effort.

You may be asking me why. It's because of the power difference.
(The next metaphor is not to say that either population is representative in the specific characters, but how to be good to something that is hurting and with a clear power difference, in no way is this a sign of anyone's maturity or capability)
If you have a child that is crying, disruptive and causing an altercation - you can yell at them. Berate them into being quite. But that's not going to solve the problem long term. I think you calm them down, help them to realize that they are being heard. And that requires you to sometimes remove yourself from the situation, to take a calming tone. To admit that things aren't perfect. And then start asking them what they need to make it better.

Grief counselors, for example, don't ask "how can I make it better" because the it is not something that can ever be solved or better. They instead ask "What do you need"

And I acknowledge that this is hard. Because you also have been hurt and have been in pain because of all of this pain.

so to you, I ask, as your co-OSS member, what do you need to get through this? What do you need to help you heal?

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I do not disagree that it is the people with power who need to start the discussion. I also recognize the majority of people with more power than myself don't step up to this. That being said, when I, personally, try to start these conversations in the real world, I'm met with backlash and resentment and told I don't have the right to try and understand that culture. It's not just with Native American issues (as we've been a little stuck on that topic). I love learning, I love learning about different cultures and I like having different perspectives to take into account when looking at the world's problems. When I try to find these different perspectives or start discussion with people who have first hand perspectives that are different from mine, more often than not I'm met with hostility. I'm told I cannot understand other cultures because I don't come from them. There is a resistance to teach me because I am "not one of them." It's to the point that in the real world I'm on the verge of terrified to start such conversations because of the resentment and backlash and the resistance to have discussions with a white person "who just can't understand."

In response to your last question, I need diverse people - poc, people who practice other religions, people coming from different cultures - to be willing to hold a discussion about those cultures - the good things, the bad things, the beliefs, the superstitions, etc - and to accept that I do not intend to judge. I come seeking knowledge and understanding. I have my own biases and those biases can be affected and altered by knowledge. I need the members of discussions to understand, just as you have in these last posts, that everyone has their own stories and experiences that have shaped who they are, what they think, and how they see the world. New experiences can alter those things. But repeated experiences of the same only reinforce those.

I try to be open-minded and to take others' perspectives into account. To do that, however, I need more than "your people hurt my people." I need perspective. I need conversations.

Honestly, I've spent a lot of my life looking for that. That's one of the reasons I love OSS so much, because it offers an opportunity for that. It also offers that opportunity with the benefit of not having to reply right away in discussions (as is what started to derail our conversations, as you pointed out earlier). This not needing to answer right away can translate to being able to walk away. Being able to walk away means you can walk away, calm down, and get to a point where you can think rationally about the topic (as you said). This something I need to work on, and I recognize that.

Circling back around to the original topic, with the added information of experiences such as mine where people who want to help better the experiences in society are being met with resentment and blaming, does the question of accountability really help situations?

I think at this point whether or not we should be held accountable for the events of the past is a moot point. I think the bigger questions now is does answering/debating/arguing about this answer, this accountability, really help?

I think there are situations that call for accountability. I think there are other situations that have focused too much on it. And I think that's the real problem. Where do you draw the line? How do you know when accountability is going to help a situation or when it's going to hurt it?

To further clarify a bit, because I realize how this might have also been misunderstood: when I talk about I am not accountable for things like assimilation or slavery, I mean I cannot answer for those injustices because I did commit them. I cannot rectify what happened, because I was not a part of it. I do not mean that I am not accountable for my actions today in how people are treated today. I can only be accountable for my actions. I can only be accountable for how my actions (or inaction) are affecting me and those around me. I can only be accountable for what I do with whatever amount of power I have and what I do with it.

I know i tend to ramble and I am now sitting trying to decide if what I've written makes sense or not... And if there's anything left to add to this particular post.

I would like to thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me and taking into account what I had to add rather than disregarding it as a white person's excuses (as is where my frustration comes from is an abundance of experience with that type of response).

That's a lot of pent up emotion and confusion.

We see this a lot on OSS with any sorts of divisions. Male vs female, mother vs child free, poc vs white. Hurt vs not.
Someone (Krystal?) Posted once that as a poc, it sometimes it's exaugsting to have to explain yourself and your ideals all the time. (My words now) That after awhile you either feel like a rat in a lab expirment or you feel like people are constantly asking you to prove your worth. That by being different you're instantly judged as being different and this subject to being questioned.

So it's this very thin line, right? Are you a person first or are you a token? Are you the mouth piece for your entire community or are you just one person with faults passions and quirks entirely your own?

So a lot of people under those conditions just don't want to educate any well intentioned individual.

The only thing I have seen that works, that keeps people from having their hackles raised and on the defensive is to listen. And if you have questions to pose general questions.

The two glaring times this doesn't work is when someone wants the full complete history and manifesto or when questions create defensive answers. I.e they aren't very respectful or does more to extole the brilliance of the questioner than the answer.

Outside, outside people have to trust you/ know you first. Right, like if you meet friends of a friend, you don't ask for their entire life story that minute. You ask simple questions and then as your relationship grows as you do more things together you can ask harder and harder questions. For community or groups, you have do a little leg work. Read up on their history, watch their films, read their newspapers. Follow the problems they face. Then with that knowledge you can hopefully find others or strike up conversations online with that community too.

Here on OSS, a lot of posters do a good job with adding reference sites and other resources with each book we read to give a larger picture. And we're fortunate to have a number of people from different countries and backgrounds all willing to engage.

Does anyone have anything else to add?

I want to add something as both an Indigenous person and a POC, while I have experienced white privilege because I am very "white" skinned thanks to my mother, I want to point out that I have the advantage of seeing the issues from both the point of view of the nationalities mentioned prior and being white. My problem is that people think that white man put Indigenous people in residential schools hundreds of years ago, that's absolutely false, our last residential school in Canada closed in 1997 so in this generation! Segregation ended in 1960 in the US and Canada, later still in Europe. So these things happened one generation before us, in our parents generation, some of us in this group are actually old enough to remember segregation happening. I am old enough to remember my cousins who lived on reservations being taken from my family members. Nothing happens but a merry go round because white people refuse to accept that these grievances happened in OUR lifetime SO YES we all need to be held accountable. Did you know that if you don't live on a reservation in Canada even though you are recognized by your tribe, half the time you don't get your treaty status (a birthright that was given to us by Pierre Trudeau in 1975), Did you also know that under Stephen Harper's government my children who are 3rd generation will not get treaty rights at all and are not entitled to them unless they are 100% indigenous? This is recent, he got voted out in 2015. That is THIS GENERATION. The reason indigenous people especially get really angry at white people is that they refuse to acknowledge that systematic racism is still happening, so yes you are accountable! Until you can accept that this is happening and the reasons why it's hurting us so much, we can't have any good or reasonable discussions. Until white people are willing to face the fact that this isn't generations old, nothing can go further. Understand that your privilege to say but I didn't do that and I shouldn't have to apologize for what my ancestors did, is what harms the narratives.

Pam wrote: "That's a lot of pent up emotion and confusion.

We see this a lot on OSS with any sorts of divisions. Male vs female, mother vs child free, poc vs white. Hurt vs not.
Someone (Krystal?) Posted on..."


Yes, I did post that it's exhausting to feel like a rat in a cage going around in circles and to have to explain why we feel the way we do.

Keith wrote: "I have always been of the opinion that you are can only be accountable for your actions.."

Indeed.

I think that as far as accountability goes within the OSS community, it is less about being accountable for your thoughts/opinions, which is a rather obscure branch of accountability. Who is right and who is wrong? But it is more about accountability with regards to how we treat one another and how we react to people who say they disagree with us.

Because of the online platform used by OSS we face the dilemma of sometimes forgetting that we are talking to real people. We need to remember that we are accountable for how we speak to one another. That is not to say that we all need to be at peace with one another. Anger and frustration are reasonable reactions. But rudeness and name calling are not.

The other side of things is that if you post an opinion you need to be prepared to have others disagree. You are again accountable for how you react to that contradiction. Descending into childishness is not a constructive form of debate. Discuss whether it may be a misunderstanding and try to resolve it. If someone expresses that something is offensive/hurtful it is up to you to take responsibility for that. Be accountable for the things you say. If you didn't mean it the way it was taken apologize and then clarify. If you don't understand how it was offensive/hurtful, try to find a way to understand. Empathize.

As for accountability outside of OSS, that could almost be a thread unto itself. I have to say that Pam's #14 and #15 comments are the ones that resonate the most with me on that topic.

This was thrown together in haste as I have limited time, but wanted to get my thoughts down while they are fresh in my head. At least the basis of my thoughts. Here's hoping they're intelligible.

~Krystal wrote: "I want to add something as both an Indigenous person and a POC, while I have experienced white privilege because I am very "white" skinned thanks to my mother, I want to point out that I have the a..."

Krystal, I am very sorry for the way indigenous people have been treated, both here in Canada and in the US. I voted for Justin Trudeau because he seemed to be promising that things would improve. I'm not sure how much they have improved so far.
I only learned recently that the last residential school closed in 1997 and was horrified. I'm not sure how to keep up with what is happening now. There is very rarely information on the news.
What is needed now, and what can I do?

Marking space because I wanna write in here later.

~Krystal wrote: "I want to add something as both an Indigenous person and a POC, while I have experienced white privilege because I am very "white" skinned thanks to my mother, I want to point out that I have the a..."

I did not know there were incidents that recent. When we learn about it and when it is discussed in schools, it is discussed and taught as something long passed.

great thread current trend in feminism is, quite rightly, to hold others to account for there actions only fitting we should all take responsibly for our own. perhaps it is time to look at anonymous accounts. For me this is the problem why I think some people feel free to attack others.

ln any case we should all have accountability at the forefront of our minds whenever we comments particularly on OSS which is the home of civilized discussion. UN could learn a lot form us in honest but fair debate

Leslie wrote: "~Krystal wrote: "I want to add something as both an Indigenous person and a POC, while I have experienced white privilege because I am very "white" skinned thanks to my mother, I want to point out ..."

If you hear of stories regarding indigenous people speak up and make it known, just one week before the accident involving the children in Humboldt a baby died on a reservation in Alberta due to overcrowding in their reservation, not enough housing, not enough clean water, not enough to eat. But we didn't hear about this because stories involving Indigenous people are often not made national news, it's sad. Does it take away from what happened in Humboldt? No, but these stories should be at the forefront. When indigenous people complain about companies like KinderMorgan on their lands, call your MPs and your MLAs to make clear that you stand with the peoples of BC and encourage them to negotiate talks with the Band leaders. Justin Trudeau has been vilified in media, I voted for him too he's done more than prior PMs but it's still not enough, he's being put in a very precarious position right now because of KinderMorgan. The Alberta Government says that if the people of BC don't agree with the pipeline going through then they will pull Royalty money from first nation reserves and their equalization payments to the provinces. Volunteer with Indigenous Friendship Centers. If you hear people making comments that indigenous people are "just lazy drunks" remind them that colonization made it this way, and also that not all indigenous people are like that. There are many successful, hard-working indigenous peoples and the ones that you see on the street are a product of their traumas, usually becoming addicted because either they've watched their own family members be this way growing up or they are addicted because of the trauma they experienced in Residential Schools. Raise awareness of the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Children there are over 4200 of them, help educate people that we've rejected the inquiry because we were promised an equal part between tribal chiefs and our Cabinet ministers but our representation was only 2 people from one Tribe. Call your MLAs and MPs and tell them you want better representation. The only way to help is by acknowledging that systematic racism still happens and educating those around you on things that are racist in context. That is how you help, you be a voice and you don't stay complacent.

Ashley wrote: "~Krystal wrote: "I want to add something as both an Indigenous person and a POC, while I have experienced white privilege because I am very "white" skinned thanks to my mother, I want to point out ..."

I know ad that is very much part of the problem. So when your teachers teach you these things you tell them that their facts have been skewed, print off articles if you have to, show your teachers how you can help raise better awareness to indigenous culture. With open narratives and everyone doing their part the narrative can change and it can be positive. Part of the reason I talk about this so much is that I am accountable for helping people understand the problems of my culture, the oppression we still feel. So when I say we are accountable, we are ALL accountable, indigenous, POC and White people alike. No one is blameless, we all have a part in changing the narratives.

~Krystal wrote: "Ashley wrote: "~Krystal wrote: "I want to add something as both an Indigenous person and a POC, while I have experienced white privilege because I am very "white" skinned thanks to my mother, I wan..."

I'm actually just about out of college now, but I'm going on to be a math teacher.

Do you have an suggestions on how I could incorporate this type of education into my future classroom?

I will be sure to speak with any coworkers about how the information is presented and look into more accurate representations of the facts to offer.

Good evening!

This is an interesting thread, thank you Emma! :)

Accountability... I feel that we are, of course, accountable for our actions just like Keith mentioned. Maybe I will be tough but I believe that everyone is accountable for her/his actions. Then comes indulgence. Are we willing to forgive someone's ignorance? Does it mean that ignorance allows to be not accountable? Is someone's motivation has to be considered and how?

Should we say to someone who was borned priviliged person because of his/her ancestor's bad actions, that she/he is accountable for something he/she did not decide and did not create/do? That would be unfair.
Should we say to someone who was borned with a legacy that does not favour her/him, that is a shame but that's their ancestor's fault not their bad so they are not accountable and we cannot ask them to change? That would be unfair as well!

In that case, I have the feeling that being accountable for our ancestor's actions does not really matter, what has be done cannot be erased and everyone must remember those discriminations and mistakes because that is part of our history. Those memories have to be taught and use as safeguards. I am really sorry if I hurt someone's feeling that is not my intention at all but if I do so, I will take responsability for that. I feel that at one point we need to move together side by side, work hand in hand no matter our ancestor's bad. Maybe some of you will say or think, "easy to say when you are a white straight male who was borned in France and was priviliged because of your gender, skin, nationality (social background? Well middle class, is it a chance, I let you make your own opinion about that)", you are probably right. The majority of my close friends are international (Columbia, Rwanda, Russia, Mexico, China, Côte d'Ivoire, Spain, Italy, Brazil etc...) from different social backgrounds and different minorities. Some of them lived wars and genocides, nice gifts from colonizations. However, every single time we discuss about that we all agree that the issues have to fixed and accountability of people before us does not truly matter in the process of fixing the problems. Then one can say, but still, some people are doing wrong things, what if you witness that something wrong is happening? If you decide not to act do you think you are not accountable?!!! If I do not act, I will have my part of accountability, but keep in mind that in a system if the majority does not move the person who will move may put herself/himself in trouble or sacrifice herself/himself if there is no support, and sometime people who told you they would support you are absent. If you are an anonymous your action may be useless. Sometime you are just powerless (sadly, and believe me I hate that so much!!!) but sometime your action can have little impact ;) Usually doing the right things is exhausting because when you look at the direct environment around you, you realize that nobody cares. However, sometime you see that your behaviour starts to have an impact on others and they start to change and sometime you discover that other people are also trying to do what is right and this gives you motivation and it warm our's heart :)

How is it related to OSS. Sometimes we see or are part of stormy discussions and I do not think that it is that bad as long as there is no violence. I mean, everyone can disagree with someone or be upset or anger at someone else. This is part of life, and I think this is totally fine. However it involves the respect of someone else's opinion. The "duty" to reassess ourselves. The abilities to say "I am sorry, I was wrong, I apologize if I hurt you I did not mean to." and to forgive as long as we do everything to not reproduce the mistakes we did. In the end, to do our best to not reproduce our mistakes and to not hurt again someone is the best proof of being sorry.

Then is it fair to do spend energy and time for fixing our ancestor's or neighbourg's mistakes? No it is not, but it has to be done if we want the future generations to have a better life and on that point I have the feeling that everyone is accountable.

Sorry if my words were tough :s

@Lewis: wink at you, I am mostly ENFJ with a significant part of ESFJ and a piece of ENTJ ;)

Ashley wrote: "~Krystal wrote: "Ashley wrote: "~Krystal wrote: "I want to add something as both an Indigenous person and a POC, while I have experienced white privilege because I am very "white" skinned thanks to..."

As a math teacher, I'm not sure how you would incorporate that into your future classrooms per say but I do encourage you to do as you say and talk to your future co-workers about how to better incorporate this type of information into their subjects and studies. Or you could do a school-wide Indigenous culture week, where you incorporate different food, cultural experiences and maybe have a bandleader come and speak to the students about their culture.

~Krystal wrote: "Leslie wrote: "~Krystal wrote: "I want to add something as both an Indigenous person and a POC, while I have experienced white privilege because I am very "white" skinned thanks to my mother, I wan..."

Thank you very much for your reply, Krystal. I have never allowed bigoted statements to go unchallenged, whether about indigenous people, black, Muslim, Jewish, or Japanese, all of which I've heard.

My last marriage actually took place in the 'native cultural centre' here in town. Now I am 75 and somewhat lacking in mobility, so I'm not sure what I could actually do there physically.

However, I could contact my local paper and demand that they report news from the two local reserves. I don't read MacLean's magazine, but do they report on issues affecting indigenous people nationally? I will see if I can find out online.

I live in a very Conservative area. Our MP and MPP are both conservative. I suspect I would be brushed off if I called either of them, but I can still try.

That is a real tragedy about the baby who died shortly before the Humboldt tragedy, and you're right - I hadn't heard of it. I think it's disgusting that any people who are not white are treated as 'less than', in any way.

I have known a number of impressive indigenous people; when I lived in Toronto, my good friend Theresa was in law school. I have been in a 12-step program, and have met a big variety of people there. All of us, no matter our background were there for the same purpose.

I have read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee which really shook me - it seemed almost unbelievable.

I think it's way past time for civil rights for, and national awareness of, indigenous people.

I will see what I can do. If you have other suggestions, I would be happy to hear them.

Thank you again!

Florian wrote: "Good evening!

This is an interesting thread, thank you Emma! :)

Accountability... I feel that we are, of course, accountable for our actions just like Keith mentioned. Maybe I will be tough but I..."

Hi Florian ! : )

As an INFJ, we seem to have a compatible personality type. ; )

Leslie wrote: "~Krystal wrote: "Leslie wrote: "~Krystal wrote: "I want to add something as both an Indigenous person and a POC, while I have experienced white privilege because I am very "white" skinned thanks to..."

I do believe that McLean's has done a number of reports on different indigenous issues including the water crisis on Attawapiskat First Nation who still have no potable drinking water after nearly 20 years. That's a sin, it's more than a sin its a disgusting injustice that people have to live like that. And awareness still needs to be raised. We need our media to take this kind of thing seriously before drastic measures like what Teresa Spence Did in December 2012 for 6 weeks that ended in January 2013. It should never have to come to that, and while things are changing like I said, they are changing slowly. It shouldn't be slow change.

Emma wrote: "In another thread, a member mentioned that she thought we should discuss accountability. So here goes!

It seems like people are often lashing out at others in OSS discussions, even more than I thi..."

Hi Emma thank you for starting this thread, as it is something I've been wanting to address, though unfortunately I couldn't add to the conversation before.

James if you feel safe to do so than you should call people out on their generalizations.

Keith and Pam well said.

Logan thanks for pitching in, accountability in OSS is what this thread was actually intended for.

"But it is more about accountability with regards to how we treat one another and how we react to people who say they disagree with us. "

Krystal you are right we need to take accountability for what is going on now. A lot of people don't seem to realize or simply ignore the fact that segregation is still rampant, it's just given a different label and hidden out of sight.

For anyone wanting to learn about some of the horrible situations people of color are facing especially in america then I recommend going threw TED Talks and watching some of the videos that talk about them, as not only do they raise your awareness but they also and be good examples of what you can do to change things.