Navigating Indieworld Discussing All Things Indie discussion

Alex wrote: "I think something to be considered on this subject is that agents and publishers are all trying to predict, or catch the tail of, the latest trend.

What they reject today, they might accept next m..."

That may be, but I would not write "to catch the trend." Be true to thyself. (Or whatever Young William said.)

“This above all: to thine own self be true, "

Carole wrote: "“This above all: to thine own self be true, ""

Yes, of course (;>)

Alex wrote: "I wasn't meaning that authors should work to catch a trend, I mean agents and publishers are looking for whatever they believe will be the next trend.

You could write an amazing vampire book, but ..."

No, I understood that, Alex. But there are authors who attempt to morph their styles and focus/genres to adapt to changing trends, something in which I've never been interested.

Theodore wrote: "Dale wrote: "Evelyn wrote: "Dale wrote: "Evelyn wrote: "Agents and publishers all over the world have a couple of model paragraph rejections that, if you are lucky, they send. It is rather sad that..."

That's one strategy, although I've heard that some places that accept simultaneous submissions are a bit less eager to actually accept them, since even if authors notify everyone, they could be preempted by someone else. I don't know how much that actually affects anything, but it's what I've heard.

Dale wrote: "Theodore wrote: "Dale wrote: "Evelyn wrote: "Dale wrote: "Evelyn wrote: "Agents and publishers all over the world have a couple of model paragraph rejections that, if you are lucky, they send. It i..."

Well, the alternative, as you've found, is to submit to one agent, wait two or three months (or whatever they stipulate), receive a rejection (or not), and start all over again. Wash, rinse, repeat. At that rate, you can only approach 4 of 5 agents a year without making simultaneous submissions, significantly reducing your chances of success as someone who's throwing your book "over the transom," as it were.

You pay your money and you take your choice.

Theodore wrote: "Well, the alternative, as you've found, is to submit to one agent, wait two or three months (or whatever they stipulate), receive a rejection (or not), and start all over again."

Of course. And I'm not saying one shouldn't do simultaneous submissions, only that one should (as you said) follow the rules for them and be aware that they may not always receive the same level of attention that serial submissions do . . . which generally don't receive that much attention to begin with. :-P

Alex wrote: "I think something to be considered on this subject is that agents and publishers are all trying to predict, or catch the tail of, the latest trend.

What they reject today, they might accept next m..."

I'd like to butt in at this point, with a question regarding timing. What if you're working on a book that you feel hits all the right nerves, is very NOW, but since it's not ready to be shown to anybody you have to bide your time?
The problem is, what if in the meantime the ship is sailed? Is there a way you can pitch a book when it's not finished? Is that even advisable? Say, you have a 'high concept' project that could 'inspire' a big publisher to have one of their hacks write their own version along similar lines. By the time you finish writing your book the story's an old hat...
Or is there a straight forward way to protect against plagirism like that?
Or am I just being delusional? ;) It's quite possible, I know. But I'd like to hear if anybody has any experience pitching an unfinished product.

I have no experience of that Magnus. I would imagine there’s nothing to stop a publishing house getting someone to write their own take on a submission from an unknown author.

I’m having a rethink. As I’m basically only seeing sales when I buy my own paperbacks I’m seriously considering putting my books back into KU. Even the 3p I used to get it better than nothing.

The only reason I went wider than KU in the first place was because the first two books in my pen name were erotica and someone told me it was nigh on impossible to get them accepted by Apple. (Of course, for some reason I managed it with no problems.)

If I was selling books on other platforms there wouldn’t be a reason to change. I’ve never made more than a few quid at this and at this stage I feel I have nothing to lose.

Anyone any thoughts on this?

I checked back on my old records- we made pretty much sold the same amount on KU as we did when we went wide. Right now I have one book on KU and it does about the same as the others. (only it has a lot more free reads.)

Either way, we were making serious bucks before they did the KU transition and it tanked once they went to the page read stuff.

I think mentally I'd fair better if I could at least see a page being read a month rather than nothing and only me buying my paperbacks. I'm waiting for D2D to finish delisting and then I'll do KU. Maybe I'll get more use out of the Amazon Ads. So far they just cost me money and no sales.

And I haven't shifted a single ebook in weeks whether wide or on Kindle.

D.J. wrote: "And I haven't shifted a single ebook in weeks whether wide or on Kindle."

alas, I know what that feels like, and I feel for you...

Magnus wrote: " What if you're working on a book that you feel hits all the right nerves, is very NOW, but since it's not ready to be shown to anybody you have to bide your time?"

Generally speaking, you need to have a completed work before anyone will even consider your proposal. However, if you've already published, your editor might be willing to talk to you about projects at the idea stage, or may even suggest ideas to you.

Out and out plagiarism isn't all that likely, from what I understand. Ideas can't be copyrighted, only the actual execution, but even so, it's not so much the ideas that grab editors. It's your writing.

Dale wrote: "Out and out plagiarism isn't all that likely, from what I understand. Ideas can't be copyrighted, only the actual execution, but even so, it's not so much the ideas that grab editors. It's your writing. ..."

I'm sure you're right and I'm just being silly. But consider the timing versus copyright 'thing' in high concept movies. Often two films with a very similar concept come along at the roughly the same time (say Armageddon and Deep Impact, or Despicable Me and Megamind,; there is a long list here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_films). It makes you wonder.

I'm surprisingly thick when it comes to the marketing of my books and have basically given up. I think unless somebody 'discovers' my stuff I'll go forever unnoticed. I spend weeks and months without shifting a single copy (and, yes, I know it's my fault). I used to try, I had some 15 4-and 5 star reviews one my first book when amazon came along and deleted them (to the best of my understanding because one of the reviews had been written by my wife).

Sorry, long, boring sob story that I didn't really mean to get into.
My point's this - I think my fourth book could change all that (provided I get the prose right, of course; the concept is pretty bullet-proof) but only by ways of a traditional publisher since I am stubbornly unsuited to the self-publishing business, it seems. And my respect to anybody who can make a living out of it. Well done, youse!
Rant's over, I promise ;)

Yes kudos to anyone who can make a living out of self-publishing. My aim is to make coffee money. I like to keep it realistic!

I am still waiting for three outlets to delist my 3rd book so I can throw it under the KU truck. I may get something from the Amazon ads if I'm exclusive to Amazon. (May, not will.)

I agree with you, Magnus. It's disheartening. Amazon wiped out so many hard-earned reviews.They shouldn't have done all of them- tho. Did they keep mine? They took all of mine down and then restored most of them after I proved I review only books I purchase.
I sent out books to reviewers, paid for shipping, paid for the paperback and they arbitrarily decided which they considered "real." I assure you, they were all real, earned and campaigned for.
I find the one book I did with a publisher at the number one spot for new releases. While I have done that with many of my self-published books for a few days, this one is sitting there for more than a month. They have asked me to post to my social media three days a week for four weeks and watch whether I am doing it. They have asked for my mailing list ( I shared what I felt I could with them) and although I won't see a royalty- That was my deal- I got paid up front, I am assuming it must be selling enough to cover their cost. They informed me the book is doing well with close to more than 100 (paperback) copies being sold- so that's the best any book I've ever done. I would never have done a book like this or the subject- so it makes me wonder if they have a formula of what will sell?

Carole wrote: "I agree with you, Magnus. It's disheartening. Amazon wiped out so many hard-earned reviews.They shouldn't have done all of them- tho. Did they keep mine? They took all of mine down and then restore..."

it's probably not quite what you wanted, Carole, after all the time you invested in this business, but still, congrats, right? You've worked hard, very hard for the success. Well done!

P.S.
Carole, I got so excited about your good news, I forgot to comment on your bad news... so they really deleted your comments? Yowser, ouch! Again something you'd worked for very hard. Incidentally I don't think they deleted your review of my second book (I think; haven't checked for a while). It was amazon.co.uk who deleted the reviews for my first book, though strangely enough they might still be visible on dotcom...

You can write them and complain. I got them to reinstate MY reviews but not the ones other people have given our books. It feels like they are not allowing new reviews to publish either. I sent out hundreds of paperbacks to our regular reviewers- while the first book in my son's series has maintained over seventy reviews (none have been added in months, even though the book is selling,) his other book can't get over 38- no matter how many I send out. It's strange- as thought they are frozen. If one shows up- they pull a different one off the site. His publisher indicated that 40 reviews is a magic number. Zon will start to promote the book once it gets over 40 and I can't seem to get it past that darn 38.
Alex, I am hoping they give me another assignment. Working with a publisher was like being in autopilot- however, they don't do royalties no matter how successful the book. I am hoping someone else will see if and give me a a better deal.

Interesting article on CS to KDP transition:

https://www.indiesunlimited.com/2018/...

OMG thanks, Ted. This explains why my sales tanked after the migration! My paperback sales were halved. It all makes sense- I'll have to make sure Brit checks all that information.

Carole wrote: "OMG thanks, Ted. This explains why my sales tanked after the migration! My paperback sales were halved. It all makes sense- I'll have to make sure Brit checks all that information."

Scares the hell outta me...I have not delved into the migration thing to this point...been waiting for them to do it, and then, intended to move in and clean up the mess.

BTW, good thing we voted at 7 am this morning. It's starting to rain...big storms expected to move in shortly with that front moving across the East Coast. Good that it's moving fast, but the winds are going to do a lot of damage I'm afraid, especially with the trees still leafed out.

Yep!

Carole wrote: "You can write them and complain. I got them to reinstate MY reviews but not the ones other people have given our books. It feels like they are not allowing new reviews to publish either. I sent out..."

Speaking of reviews, here's a blog piece I posted yesterday (I posted this elsewhere on the board, but it's relevant here as well):

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog...

Magnus wrote: "My point's this - I think my fourth book could change all that (provided I get the prose right, of course; the concept is pretty bullet-proof) but only by ways of a traditional publisher since I am stubbornly unsuited to the self-publishing business, it seems. And my respect to anybody who can make a living out of it."

Neither avenue is easy, they just require different kinds of efforts. Traditional publishing requires a lot of work to get picked up (if you do at all), and indie publishing takes a lot of promotional effort to get noticed (if you do at all). Most of us never hit the big time, unfortunately.

Hitting the big time is about the same as going to Hollywood and becoming a super star. Very few actually 'make it.'
Most writers I am in contact with end up feeling as an indie it's a supplemental income to their day jobs. We are pulling in enough with all our combined books that it could support someone (one person and barely). We use those funds to try and get notice and catch that 'lightening in a bottle.'
For me it has yielded one paid gig( the publishing job), for my son a small traditional publisher. He actually made more as an indie, but in order to get a film deal, they wanted him traditionally published. We'll see what happens.
On another note, I've gotten several speaking engagements where I received upwards of a thousand dollars per engagement. RL began the magazine and of course there are the blog radio shows. I believe there is a way to make a living with all of these things. I haven't figured it out yet.

So here I am with the bright idea (alas, not mine) of putting one of my ebooks into KU. Superb, except that I have to drag it out of all the other channels first. Kobo dropped it as soon as I asked their system to. D2D got on top of iBooks and a few others. There are three left that D2D are still delisting. I don't do patience. It's been going on for days. There I was expecting it to be instant. Groan.

D.J. wrote: " I don't do patience."

I sometimes do and sometimes don't. I'm sitting here with four drafts at Medium (one short story, one flash fiction piece, one writing article, and one religion article), three of which waiting for publications to publish them and the flash story for a challenge that doesn't start accepting entries until next week. Ugh!

I'm really impatient to find out how people like the short story, "Teleférico." I had a great fun writing it. But all I can do is wait...

I still haven’t figured out how you write for publications on Medium. Technically-what is the process? Is there a submission process?

Was it a reviewer that reviewed other books in the series? Three stars is okay- It's really better than all five star reviews- they say that it really is true.

D.J. wrote: "I still haven’t figured out how you write for publications on Medium. Technically-what is the process? Is there a submission process?"

Every publication has its own process, On their main page at Medium they will provide information about that process. It's mostly just a matter of writing a story and submitting it to them following their specific procedures.

If they accept your story, they'll add you to their list of writers and publish the story. After that, you'll be able to directly submit to them whenever you want. On the "new story" actions menu (the one with the "..." on it), there is an "Add to Publication" command. That will show you all the publications you've been accepted to write for. You pick a publication there, then go through the normal process to complete the story, except the "Publish" button will change to "Submit to Publication."

Alex wrote: "...but the reviewer said the book is not very believable, which I'm struggling to understand."

Don't worry about a single comment. Maybe that particular reader just doesn't get it.

I've had a few people say True Death was hard to follow because of the multiple points of view and flashbacks, but other people say it's just fine as it is. I took some extra care with that in Ice on the Bay, but to be honest I think it was just that some people are more easily confused than others. (I'm one of them in some cases.)

If after you get a number of reviews you find it's a recurring theme, then it would be something to consider, but probably not based on a single review.

Really? Try mine, nothing is believable in what I write. Agatha Christie would not have made it as an indie author.

Did they say what is unbelievable about it?

Towns in England been cut off by bad weather several times in the last few years.
I think five people were knifed to death in London last week.
A cheetah escaped from its enclosure into the deer enclosure in Howlett's the other month, there was hardly anything stopping that from getting out into public areas other than luck and some well placed keepers.
A couple of weeks ago the news reported sightings of a big cat loose somewhere in Scotland, turned out not to be a big cat, but it made the news.

What exactly is unbelievable about A Stone's Throw which is a work of, wait for it, FICTION.

You can tell I'm in a mood. And I'm still waiting for D2D to delist my latest from three places so I can dump it in KU.

lol

It's about as believable as a beluga whale in the Thames. No wait, that happened.

Email just in: "The KDP Select Global Fund for November is $23.6 million" Splendid. Of which I will receive exactly 0. Thrilled for everyone else. Grudgingly...

D.J. wrote: "Email just in: "The KDP Select Global Fund for November is $23.6 million" Splendid. Of which I will receive exactly 0. Thrilled for everyone else. Grudgingly..."

LOL Oh, gosh, D.J., I guess the Good Lord's plans did not include making either of us rich.

Beginning December 30th, and continuing through January 27th, I will be cancelling the KDP contracts for 12 eBooks and placing them on both B&N and Kobo.

Alex wrote: "Theodore wrote: "D.J. wrote: "Email just in: "The KDP Select Global Fund for November is $23.6 million" Splendid. Of which I will receive exactly 0. Thrilled for everyone else. Grudgingly..."

LOL ..."

That's where the books are going. I already have some books on their other site, some that were place there by another publisher I used, some by me...I'll leave them there. But the ones I spoke of above are going on KWL. In fact, they're already uploaded...just need to wait for the date KDP cancels and push the Publish button on KWL. Ditto, B&N...books already are uploaded.

I’m just experimenting with KDP again. I’ve never had no page reads before. I will be opting out when it expires. My Amazon ads have done nothing. Paid for promotion might get me a few sales but under half the amount the promotion costs. I shrug with disdain at the self publishing world right now.

Alex wrote: "Theodore wrote: "D.J. wrote: "Email just in: "The KDP Select Global Fund for November is $23.6 million" Splendid. Of which I will receive exactly 0. Thrilled for everyone else. Grudgingly..."

LOL ..."

Alex, tell me more about the Kobo promotions...I see nothing on their Website. Can you find it and post the applicable URL here?

I did find this, but I doubt it's what you were referring to:

https://kobowritinglife.zendesk.com/h...

Thanks.

Alex wrote: "Theodore wrote: "Alex wrote: "Theodore wrote: "D.J. wrote: "Email just in: "The KDP Select Global Fund for November is $23.6 million" Splendid. Of which I will receive exactly 0. Thrilled for every..."

Okay...I just did that. And yes, it does take a day or so for them to respond, but they eventually do. I have found them very helpful in resolving my problems.

Thanks.

Ted

Alex wrote: "Oh yes, they resolve problems well, they're polite and I have no issues with them, I just wish they were a little quicker at times.

Hopefully they'll get the promo tab sorted quickly for you. If ..."

I'll have to wait until at least mid-January. As of now, I only have six books on Kobo. By the end of January, the number will be more than 20.

I was thinking of going back on KU for the first three months of the year- because people give KIndles away as gifts. I was thinking it might be a good time to get some interest in the books. I'm not sure- if this is a good strategy, it's certainly a pain moving them off D2D to KU and then in March moving them back.
I know the trads don't put their books on KU- KIndles then are filled with free or inexpensive indie choices so 'Zon looks good and then they push the trad guy's books. I'm conflicted about it. Sales have been anemic for a year.

Carole wrote: "I was thinking of going back on KU for the first three months of the year- because people give KIndles away as gifts. I was thinking it might be a good time to get some interest in the books. I'm n..."

I can't offer any advice here, Carole. Frankly, I don't think it much matters. The problem is: marketing!!! If you make a big enough noise and can drive people to your books, it doesn't matter where they're posted for sale. It's getting them to click on YOUR books, wherever they may be found. SSDD (Same story, different day!)

I think you're right!!

I released my 4th book in September. My publisher and I both thought it would do really well because of the topic and amazing book cover. Have only sold a couple. None of my books are selling in large amounts like a lot of other authors reports. I do not have the money to pay for marketing and exposure like a lot of other authors do. This year I did win 2018 Female Author in Poetry for my 3rd book but that didn't help in sales. It's really frustrating since the few people who have purchased my books have really enjoyed them. Out of all of my books I have 7 reviews and none have been negative. I will not give up and I will keep trying. I just wish one day my publisher will say there is a huge increase in sales and my books are climbing the Amazon charts. I even did a 99cents sale for a week and only 1 person placed an order. Again it's disappointing but I am not giving up. Just needed to vent.

Welcome to my world Kimberley. Although you’re ahead of me. I do not have a publisher and I have never won anything. I sell very few books. I have limited funds for marketing. I only shift books if they are virtually free therefore meaning I’m out of pocket on the promotion and have no chance of earning the money back. I simply do not earn enough in my day job to throw money away like that.

It's gotten much harder to sell books, Kimerbly. When I began this enterprise eight years ago, there were tons of options to market your books. It didn't involve spending a fortune. I spent most of my money on illustrators and took marketing the books for granted. Reviews were easy to obtain, there were hundreds of sites to read and review for free, blogs tours were accessible, there were dozens of choices.
Amazon changed many of the rules. Once they went into the page read things to fill their coffers with money- it cut our profit by half. People figured out ways to game the system stealing from honest people trying to make a living doing this. Now, Amazon is filled with lots of free or inexpensive books for it's Kindle, care of indie authors, while the traditional houses scoop up the majority of the money.
I know many people are saying they're making big money out there- I think it's baloney. I think between the cost of marketing and building a fan base, it must be costing them most of the money they earn to maintain those numbers.
In your case, you need to brand yourself as a poet, and the easiest way I think is for you do do a podcast for poetry. You can produce a podcast for free. I don't know the exact rules with Blog radio, but it can be done.
You should do a weekly or monthly poetry half-hour, inviting other poets and let them read their poetry- you can advertise your books on the site, and squeeze in some of your own work and possibly build a following with that. Each of your guests should have followers who like poetry and may choose to buy your books. I think, right now, this is the cheapest way for you to expand your reach.

Kimberly wrote: "I released my 4th book in September. My publisher and I both thought it would do really well because of the topic and amazing book cover. Have only sold a couple. None of my books are selling in la..."

The only way I found to sell books over the last several years was to confine myself to KDP and run discount sales linked to promotions on Ereader News Today (ENT).

https://ereadernewstoday.com/

I used both their regular service as well as Book Of The Day. In some cases I sold well over one hundred books over the course of a week (I think the best week got up near 200 books), but of late, the best effort has been around 80 books. Mysteries sold the best, short stories and flash fiction not so much. My YA novel didn't do well. I'm not sure how poetry would do. Romance, of course, does best.

In all, as Carole says, given what you have to sell a book for these days (and mindful of the number being given away free), by the time you add up marketing costs, it's almost impossible to make a buck today in the indie marketplace.