Nature Literature discussion

Ray wrote: "Sher wrote: "Ray wrote: "Not even Intelligent Design - Young Earth Creationism, which holds that the earth is about 5,000 years old - based on the Old Testament genealogies."

Ok. And I guess this ..."

"Capitalism is our salvation" oh my goodness. Ray-did I tell you I had lunch with a colleague in Alaska last month (Humanities professor), and I was talking about the possibility that humans could go extinct. He is religiously conservative and becoming more so as he ages--- but he basically told me - that was not possible. God would never allow humans to go extinct, because we are His creation. The problem with this view - in my mind- is that it releases humanity from accountability. And without any accountability to our natural world, we will go extinct. And yet, those with the view that humans are the center and apex of the universe, cannot even comprehend the possibility of extinction-- everything else can pass from the earth but not humans. It is this philosophical problem of dualism, which is much a Western idea, and it causes tremendous problems .... Okay, so maybe I have just identified why Humboldt's realization or what Thich Nhat Hahn calls "inter being" or web of Life or inter related diversity is so important.

I started this today and will be joining in on the discussion shortly! :)

Yeah! More people joining. How wonderful!

By the way, I am completely fine with people challenging my ideas about things. I love good debate. So as long as people are polite, I am okay with their questioning my facts or opinions. I think it makes for an interesting debate where both sides can benefit. I just might learn something. 😁 and there is no greater gift than knowledge. Isn’t that why Humbolt went off to explore? There are many humans out there who crave knowledge and I think it nourishes the soul.

Welcome Navi-- you are everywhere :), but I know you can do it! Join in whenever you like. I am on C 11.

And, in C 11 I get a hint as to why most of us have never heard of Alexander Humboldt! But I shan't give it away...:)

Ohhh! A cliff hanger!

Sarah wrote: "Yeah! More people joining. How wonderful!

By the way, I am completely fine with people challenging my ideas about things. I love good debate. So as long as people are polite, I am okay with their..."

I agree, but it becomes increasingly apparent to me that there is an agenda afoot to squelch all dissent.

On another note, chapters four and five intrigued me. The hardships of crossing the Llanos and travel on the Orinoco make modern existence seem tame and easy. The experiments with electric eels seem foolhardy by today's standards, but how could they have known. The narrow escape from curare poisoning also seems wild.

http://www.arkive.org/orinoco-crocodi...

That’s why I think of him as sort of like an Indian Jones but also a bit of Edison since Edison likes to electrocute animals and was doing so with his own experiments 100 years later. Maybe he didn’t read Humbolt? I’ve read a bit about Tesla but I don’t recall him electrocuting animals particularly.
Humbolt lived an incredible life and I must read on to find out why we don’t know too much about him. We certainly know a ton about Edison! All I can say is it was mighty tricky working for him if you didn’t want to get ZApped!

Indeed it was.
The thought occurred to me that the Alligators to which the author refers are probably actually caimans. The Spectacled Caiman is listed as a species found in the Orinoco Basin. http://www.arkive.org/spectacled-caim...

So far as I know, the American Alligator is only found in North America. https://nationalzoo.si.edu/animals/am...

I am now into Chapter titled "Europe." The description of his travels was brief. Cuba is barely mentioned, yet, according to the end matter, he wrote an entire book on Cuba. I am also intrigued to learn more about his observations of Native People. What was that manuscript, translated from a native language into Spanish, which he hand copied?

Yikes, I’m not sure. I’d have to go back and look it up & since I am listening not reading I cant skip back easily. This is why I am only getting actual books for next group read.

I'm about a third of the way in and am absolutely loving it so far. This is such a well thought out and beautifully written biography that I find myself completely absorbed in the narrative. Before reading this, I was unaware of who Humboldt was, which is such a shame. He should be taught in all schools especially for the influence he had in the way we think about nature. His ideas were definitely ahead of his time.

He was such an eccentric, passionate scientist to the point where it is comical. Humboldt went above and beyond in the name of science where he conducted electrocutions on himself, obtained the corpses of a farmer and his wife who had been killed by lightning to analyze them and conducting experiments during an earthquake. This passion and dedication is admirable!

I found the relationship Humboldt had with Goethe extremely fascinating. I think what really stands out for me is how prominent figures of this time period had passions/obsessions that went beyond their fields of profession. It seems like this level of curiosity is hard to find in the modern day.

Navi wrote: "I'm about a third of the way in and am absolutely loving it so far. This is such a well thought out and beautifully written biography that I find myself completely absorbed in the narrative. Before..."

Navi:
I like your observation at the end of your post about the possible lack of creative imagination is science today. My words, not yours. But, I feel it has to do with structure- we now have so much structure as to what constitutes good or right science. The 19th C is a fabulous era to study (for me anyway) because there was so much innovative thought. In so many areas new - flexible sometime crazy ideas were being hatched, BUT, those innovative ideas formed the foundation for later science-- look at Darwin for example. :) By the way - in our other group I just posted an interest in reading Goethe: A Very Short Introduction Goethe - some understanding of his contributions is key to getting his influence on European and American intellectual thought of the 19th C. I just mention this in case you are interested -- no pressure of course.

I know little about Goethe but want to know more! Faust is one of the most famous stories going and I want to read it.

I really want to read more about Goethe now as well, Sarah! I may try to fit Faust in this year.

I downloaded it from Audible.com but I think I want a print copy so that I can underline it. Plus somethings are good for reading and others for listening to and I think this might be the former category in order to really absorb the information. Maybe it’s just the way I process info, anyone else feel that way?

I find it especially difficult to listen to non fiction books on audio. You're not alone! I think I absorb more information through the written word than auditory.

Do you know of E. O. Wilson - the ant specialist? He's written books and articles about biodiversity, and I thought of Wilson when reading about Humboldt's contribution to our understanding of the natural world.

I've never of heard of Wilson. I may have to pick up a book of his! Thanks for the recommendation :)

But, I must say -- or I should ask you - what do you think about the fact Humboldt was predicting global warming/climate change in the early 19th C, and indeed it has happened, and warnings have not been heeded.

This was so interesting to me! It is truly amazing how much of pioneer/visionary Humboldt was in relation to his peers. To notice something like climate change/global warming at a time when the adverse effects were not easily as prominent as they are today takes a high level of awareness and empathy to the natural world.

While the first section on Humbolt's life was interesting, I think I took more from the latter section, the one on the people who built thier careers, economic philosophies, and social movements on the foundation that Humbolt provided. Learning about how he helped other famous figures (like Charles Darwin, Henry David Thoreau, and John Muir) to their own heights was fascinating and I very much appreciated not only being able to learn about someone new, but also more about individuals who were known to me.

It is good to know that this will be covered in the later chapters. I was hoping that it would! I really want to see how prominent figures melded their views with that of Humboldt's and whether the core ides changed or stayed relatively the same.

Sher wrote: "I like your observation at the end of your post about the possible lack of creative imagination is science today. My words, not yours. But, I feel it has to do with structure- we now have so much structure as to what constitutes good or right science.

This is very true! I also find that the scientific field today is a bit fragmented. Scientists tend to stay within their paradigm or fields of interest where biases become a subconscious part of their methodology. I think we need a more cohesive and unified approach but I understand how difficult that would be.

The 19th C is a fabulous era to study (for me anyway) because there was so much innovative thought. In so many areas new - flexible sometime crazy ideas were being hatched, BUT, those innovative ideas formed the foundation for later science-- look at Darwin for example. :)

The Victorian period is my favourite for this reason as well! There seems to be no field where there wasn't leaps and bounds of advancement taking place within it (literature, health and medicine, science etc). Truly a remarkable time!

By the way - in our other group I just posted an interest in reading Goethe: A Very Short Introduction Goethe - some understanding of his contributions is key to getting his influence on European and American intellectual thought of the 19th C. I just mention this in case you are interested -- no pressure of course.

I am definitely interested! I will post in that discussion thread.

I think there are areas of contemporary science less hidebound than others - particularly in the fringes of chaos theory, fractals, and astrophysics.

I am now into chapter 12 and I found myself wondering if Pablo Neruda had read Humboldt. Residence on Earth and the Canto General reflect Humboldt's view of nature. The Heights of Macchu Picchu reflect Humboldt's view of class and race. equality. The author said that Humboldt is much more popular in South America than Europe or the United States.

The comments about LeClerc at the end chapter 12 may help to explain why Humboldt is buried in history. Popular culture embraces a world view much more similar to that of LeClerc than that of Humboldt. Popular culture also holds formal gardens and cultivated field as superior to undisturbed nature - a view contrary to Humboldt's perception of nature as a vital force.
Also, Chapter 13 reveals why he never went to India. I will say no ore on that topic lest I state a "spoiler."

One things is for sure Humboldt went against colonialism when he observed "Colonialism is devastating to the environment." It's like us saying today that Monsanto's Round Up destroys families or destroys lives. It's a message that the powers do not want to hear. But, it is interesting that Humboldt made these connections.

I also thought the connection between Bolivar and Humboldt interesting and Humboldt's way of thinking and writing about nature influenced Bolivar's.

Humboldt also saw the direct connection between slavery, economics, and nature. This view was something Jefferson could never follow since he himself had many salves and freed very few within his lifetime, and slavery was essential to Jefferson's view of right economy.

Humboldt was considered to have "encyclopedic" knowledge of South America ..."The greatest authority on South American" living. If heads of state knew he views about economy and nature, perhaps his views were stamped out in N America, so that the economy would not be affected, or maybe it is just that he wrote so much about S America he was not as well read elsewhere or S America was not considered as important. I think I am finishing up C 12.

Sher wrote: "One things is for sure Humboldt went against colonialism when he observed "Colonialism is devastating to the environment." It's like us saying today that Monsanto's Round Up destroys families or de..."
I agree that his thoughts on colonialism may have led to suppression of his works. Also:

When thinking of how new scientific ideas are accepted among scientists, it might be good to look at Thomas Kuhn's book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6...

I'm slowly making my way through the discussion comments. Please bear with me!

Question:
For those of you who have read it or who are reading -- do you resonate with Humboldt's view and approach to nature? Is it important to experience nature to know it? Why?

How do you respond to this:

"Nature must be experienced through feeling."

Sher-

This worldview resonates deeply with me. I think it is so important to include our subjective feelings in our overall understanding of nature. In my opinion, science helps to understand the how and why but our emotional responses really help colour in our relationship to the rest of the world. There is something so transcendental and awe inspiring when you are out in the natural world that it seems silly to discount it because it is not "scientific".

Dayton, Tennessee, home of the Scopes Monkey Trial, is about an hour’s drive from my home in Chattanooga. The trial is reenacted at the Rhea County Courthouse each year.

Thank you for sharing this, Ray. I was unaware of the Scopes Monkey Trial. It made for some interesting reading.

I'm currently in the middle of Chapter 12. Do we know if Humboldt held any religious beliefs? I found the following quote about him having a fear of ghosts utterly amusing. It seems at odds with his scientific mind.

There were rumours, Friedrich Schiller told Goethe, that ‘Alexander couldn’t get rid of the spirit of his mother’. Apparently she appeared to him all the time. A mutual acquaintance had told Schiller that Humboldt was participating in some dubious séances in Paris involving her. Humboldt had always been afflicted by a ‘great fear of ghosts’, as he had admitted to a friend a few years previously, but now it had got much worse. No matter how much he cast himself as a rational scientist, he felt his mother’s spirit watching his every move. It was time to escape.

Navi wrote: "I'm slowly making my way through the discussion comments. Please bear with me!

Question:
For those of you who have read it or who are reading -- do you resonate with Humboldt's view and approach t..."

Yes - having worked as an environmental educator and park ranger for a good potion of my life, I find resonance with the need to learn from experience. I also took field botany classes at the undergraduate and graduate level, as well as an entomology class focused on field identification. I am quite familiar with the vasculum and plant press mentioned in the text as well with herbarium paper and collecting nets for insects, both aerial and aquatic.
A web search will yield pictures of these items.
http://herbariumsupply.com/?s=plant+p...

An early influence on me professionally, https://www.goodreads.com/search?q=St...

Ray wrote: "Sher wrote: "One things is for sure Humboldt went against colonialism when he observed "Colonialism is devastating to the environment." It's like us saying today that Monsanto's Round Up destroys f..."

Ray:
Thanks for sharing this book; It's philosophy of science and looks like it would be really helpful to read and thank about. It seems to support our Humboldts and Darwins. :) I've put it on my list.

Navi wrote: "I'm currently in the middle of Chapter 12. Do we know if Humboldt held any religious beliefs? I found the following quote about him having a fear of ghosts utterly amusing. It seems at odds with hi..."

Navi- Humboldt's mother seemed to be a deeply disturbing figure in his life. After all Humboldt would never marry or have relations even with women. Her coldness and lack of love -- everything about her and how she effected the boys psyche, must have haunted Humboldt his entire life. it's quite sad. This could have easily played a role in fear of ghosts, because - otherwise- where would it have come from culturally? Interesting point though and question.

Ray- Thank you for the links! I did not realize this was your professional background. I guess I thought of you as a writer, but maybe because that is what you have been doing since you retired. No wonder you are a member of Nat Lit and a long time member too!

Maybe it because of his upbringing and the belief in ghosts and negative influences of his mother that Humbolt became a naturalist disprove all the hokum that he got from his mother. A lot of us are motivated to do the exact opposite of our parents. It would explain also why he felt haunted by her, the poor dear.

Sarah wrote: "Maybe it because of his upbringing and the belief in ghosts and negative influences of his mother that Humbolt became a naturalist disprove all the hokum that he got from his mother. A lot of us ar..."

Yes, that makes sense! Goodness knows I am pretty much the exact opposite of my dear mother. :)

Sher. I try to be but a lot wears ofv

Everyone:
I finished C 18 --

So, Humboldt did go back to Berlin, and it was terrific the way he kept doing his work and spreading a comparative view of science and nature despite being in the restrictive and un-interested court .

Of note - the women who were able to attend his very popular lectures and learn in an environment that was acceptable to society at large.

He never made it to India -- sigh-- but he did get to Russia. I so enjoyed the story of his time in Russia -- again making the best of an extremely restricted situation. His last great adventure.

I did not realize anthrax was a natural substance! What a story traveling through an anthrax infected region -- closed up in the coach. And that coach wreck at the end of the expedition on his way home. Seemed like he had a charmed life surviving so many dangers. Being so brave and competent helped.


Russia was so different from his South American travels too.

Another surprise for me is Darwin being inspired to travel on the Beagle because of reading Humboldt's book!

This is link to the Gutenberg Project and Humboldt's great work of a whole world theory Cosmos.

Will give you a sense of his writing style, passion, and the immensity of his work and thought.

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/1...

Thanks for the link. I have downloaded and will look at portions of the book.
I also found the chapter on Russia interesting. Imagine wearing leather masks to avoid mosquitoes!
I have not yet read the chapter on Darwin, but it sounds fascinating.

I can't imagine it Ray! Leather masks-- wow that was well before synthetic mesh! :)

Checking in to see where everyone is in the book. I'm in part 5, and I have so enjoyed the section on Thoreau. I had no idea that Humboldt was influenced by Humboldt. It seem Thoreau's writing was transformed into a combination of the prose poems and observations we know of today. Humboldt wanted to travel the world, but Thoreau pointed out the same type of study and comparisons could be done in your home state. I thought this idea so lovely. And, yes, I agree--- we can learn so much by deeply looking in our own woods.

I can see that Humboldt lives a long life. Interesting how in his late years he corresponds with his S American traveling partner - I can't spell his name -- bon plum ??? But, the two men are reunited through words and memory in old age while their friends die around them.

I am glad to see that even in late, late life Humboldt is showered with visitors and interest by outsiders. And, yet we don't know of him today...

It’s truly amazing Humbolt’s reach and influence I had just started reading Thoreau and it is why I joined this group. He really had a profound effect on me. And now I see he had a profound effect on Humbolt who seemed to influenced some of the major minds of his day! All roads lead to Thoreau?

Thoreau said, "I have traveled much in Concord, yet his Cape Cod book is considered a foundation of travel writing." I have this book on Kindle https://loa.org/writers/224-henry-dav...
It includes Thoreau's five major books and a large number of his lectures, poems, and essays. Library of America is a nonprofit organization that publishes volumes which include all of an author's major works. I also have their book of Walt Whitman's works, which includes Leaves of Grass, Specimen Days, and correspondence. Their volume of John James Audubon includes his journals (Mississippi River Journal and Missouri River Journal), Ornithological Biographies, and illustrations from birds of America. I have that hardbound.

I have been busy with two major projects and just finished the Chapter on Darwin in our book of the month. Back to reading today.

Sounds good Ray. Nice to have you back in the discussion.

My copy arrived late in this month, so I'm getting a s-l-o-w start on this book. Will probably be reading it into July, so if there are any later-comers here, perhaps we can continue the discussion beyond June?

Shira said, “...can we continue this discussion beyond June?” I hope so, too and I will! It’s a lot of stuff to digest and think about.

Ray, good luck with your projects! I have read two of Thoreau’s books, Walking and Walden and have started on A Week on the Concord and.., and have even started rereading Walden. I’d like to read everything he’s written as it he seems to really speak to me, or at least Walden did. What is your favorite thing he wrote? Has he been a big influence on you like he was on Humboldt?

Sorry, everyone! I've been a bit busy the past few days so was unable to devote reading time but I hope to power through and finish in the next day or two. Will jump back in the discussion at that time! :)

Thank you Navi! We'll be happy to have you back.

Ray wrote: "Yes - having worked as an environmental educator and park ranger for a good potion of my life, I find resonance with the need to learn from experience. I also took field botany classes at the undergraduate and graduate level, as well as an entomology class focused on field identification. I am quite familiar with the vasculum and plant press mentioned in the text as well with herbarium paper and collecting nets for insects, both aerial and aquatic."

Ray:

How was your experience working as a park ranger? Whereabouts did you work (if you don't mind sharing)? You must have such an unique insight into environmental wisdom because of your professions :)

Sher wrote: "Navi- Humboldt's mother seemed to be a deeply disturbing figure in his life. After all Humboldt would never marry or have relations even with women. Her coldness and lack of love -- everything about her and how she effected the boys psyche, must have haunted Humboldt his entire life. it's quite sad. This could have easily played a role in fear of ghosts, because - otherwise- where would it have come from culturally? Interesting point though and question. "

Yes, childhood trauma could most certainly cause his irrational fear of ghosts or the "unknown". I was surprised to read later in the book that Humboldt was close to his brother. For some reason, I felt like there was a bit of distance between them. It's nice to know that he had someone in his family that he could rely on for some emotional support. He also had a great relationship with his sister in law (even though she thought he was quite the eccentric :) ).

Sarah wrote: "A lot of us are motivated to do the exact opposite of our parents. It would explain also why he felt haunted by her, the poor dear."

I am definitely guilty of this as well!

Sher wrote: "Of note - the women who were able to attend his very popular lectures and learn in an environment that was acceptable to society at large."

Oh I really enjoyed the part about his lectures!

A quote from the book:

By not charging any entry fee, Humboldt democratized science: his packed audiences ranged from the royal family to coachmen, from students to servants, from scholars to bricklayers – and half of those attending were women. Berlin had never seen anything like it, Wilhelm von Humboldt said. As newspapers announced the lectures, people rushed to secure their seats. There were traffic jams on the days of the talks with policemen on horses trying to control the chaos. An hour before Humboldt took the podium, the auditorium was already crowded. The ‘jostle is frightful’, said Fanny Mendelssohn Bartholdy, the sister of the composer Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy. But it was all worth it. Women, who were not permitted to study at universities or even to attend meetings of the scientific societies, were finally allowed to ‘listen to a clever word’.

- I cannot imagine an equivalent to this level of excitement for a science lecture taking place today! Traffic jams and all! :)

Sher wrote: "I so enjoyed the story of his time in Russia -- again making the best of an extremely restricted situation. His last great adventure."

I giggled to myself when Humboldt decided to take a detour just because he wanted to. By the time his organizer got the letter, there was no stopping him!

This is link to the Gutenberg Project and Humboldt's great work of a whole world theory Cosmos.

Ahh thank you! I'm definitely intrigued to pick up some of Humboldt's primary works.

I'm in the middle of Chapter 18. I cannot believe that Humboldt had such an influence on Darwin's worldview but he remains an mostly unknown figure.

A few quotes showcasing the similarities between Humboldt and Darwin:

Darwin modelled his own writing on Humboldt’s, fusing scientific writing with poetic description to such an extent that his journal of the Beagle voyage became remarkably similar in style and content to the Personal Narrative. So much so that his sister complained after receiving a first part of his journal in October 1832 ‘that you had, probably from reading so much of Humboldt, got his phraseology’, and ‘the kind of flowery french expressions which he uses’. Others were more complimentary and told Darwin later how delighted they were with his ‘vivid, Humboldt-like pictures

Both Humboldt and Darwin had the rare ability to focus in on the smallest detail – from a fleck of lichen to a tiny beetle – and then to pull back and out to examine global and comparative patterns. This flexibility of perspective allowed them both to understand the world in a completely new way. It was telescopic and microscopic, sweepingly panoramic and down to cellular levels, and moving in time from the distant geological past to the future economy of native populations.

Like Humboldt, Darwin recorded his emotional responses to nature, as well as providing scientific data and information about indigenous people.

Navi
I enjoyed the Russia journey very much, and going back to the Anthrax outbreak. In those days an outbreak of disease could be isolated - by not allowing people in and out, and because the region was so silted to begin with, but in modern days, we struggle with this. Airplanes and trade allow diseases to spread worldwide relatively quickly.

Navi wrote: "I'm in the middle of Chapter 18. I cannot believe that Humboldt had such an influence on Darwin's worldview but he remains an mostly unknown figure.

A few quotes showcasing the similarities betwe..."

Navi and all-- I am beginning to have a theory about Humboldt and history and why we don't know about him, and it's not because he mostly studied S America. I won't let the cat out of the bag-- everyone can keep guessing and thinking about this.

Sher wrote: "Navi
I enjoyed the Russia journey very much, and going back to the Anthrax outbreak. In those days an outbreak of disease could be isolated - by not allowing people in and out, and because the regi..."

This is something I find extremely fascinating. The negative role that globalization can have in aiding a virus outbreak is quite frightening when you think about it - especially with recent scares of SARS, Avian Flu, Ebola etc.

Sher- On a similar topic, there was a book published a few months ago that I absolutely cannot wait to read. It's called Animal Viruses and Humans, a Narrow Divide: How Lethal Zoonotic Viruses Spill Over and Threaten Us. If you're interested in reading more! :)

Sher wrote: " I am beginning to have a theory about Humboldt and history and why we don't know about him, and it's not because he mostly studied S America. I won't let the cat out of the bag-- everyone can keep guessing and thinking about this."

Oh! I'm intrigued :) I haven't formed a theory yet but will keep you posted!

One young pianist who had considered an invitation to play for Humboldt a great honour quickly discovered that the old man could be very rude (and that he had no interest in music whatsoever). As the pianist began to play, there was a moment of silence but then Humboldt continued to talk so loudly that no one could listen to the music. He was lecturing the audience as he always did and as the pianist played his crescendos and fortes, Humboldt raised his voice in tandem, always outdoing the music. ‘It was a duet,’ the pianist said, ‘which I did not sustain long.’

This made me laugh! :D