Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

just finished the book this morning on my first day back at work here in the US. I'm still processing it, but I would point out that the slogan in the prison that Work will set you Free is essentially an English translation of the German words on the gate into Auschwitz.

George wrote: "just finished the book this morning on my first day back at work here in the US. I'm still processing it, but I would point out that the slogan in the prison that Work will set you Free is essenti..."

Worked just about as well there, no doubt.

the intent is more or less the same, anyway.

Thanks for your comments, Mina. For me, the book really highlighted the "no way out" problem of institutional racism - Horus, for example, could choose between living in denial (and PTSD as you mention), afraid to embrace anything in his life and blocking the memories of his childhood, or seeking justice, which effectively ended his marriage and any chance for a free life.

I'd like to bring up a quote from the courtroom scene at the beginning. The prosecutor stated,

"The civil rights movement has taught us much. And if it has taught us anything, especially now in 1986, it has taught us that peace for us all is most important."

This seemed a bit apologist to me when I read it, particularly coming from the prosecutor (you all need to "go along to get along"). I was thinking how Jack Thompson and others in the civil rights movement might say that "peace" sometimes takes second place to justice. Or maybe a better way to say it: long-term progress sometimes requires a short-term disruption of "peace" (peace = status quo?). Anyone have thoughts about that? Is that one of the themes of the book, peace vs. justice? Complacency vs. confrontation? It seems that both choices have costs.

George wrote: "just finished the book this morning on my first day back at work here in the US. I'm still processing it, but I would point out that the slogan in the prison that Work will set you Free is essenti..."

Thanks for reminding us of that point, George (and good to have you back!). The Warden's philosophy was unnerving to me, how he fanatically took to heart the effects of torture and used them as a "roadmap", how he used Dickens' critique to strengthen his resolve. I would not want to be up against him in a battle of wills.

I finish the book late last night. I enjoyed the ending and I didn't think I would.

I think I would add redemption to the list of themes in this book.

Along those lines Michael. For me it was the examples of pittbulls and the dog fighting but it was very effective.

Rebecca wrote: "I think I would add redemption to the list of themes in this book...."

Yes!

yes!, as well, but it's a pretty long list of themes for such a short book. I found the use of magical realism so interesting in part 1 that I was initially irritated when the plot shifted away in part 2. I wanted more of Brenda and Sephiri and I wanted it now.

And of course, the warden and his chief minion are endlessly loathsome from their introduction. Certainly nothing Horus did is half so horrendous as the war scene with the Vietnamese women. if anyone belongs in this land of the undead, it's the warden himself. He seems a rather Miltonesque demon, much perfering to rule in his own version of Hell, perfected through his own experiences and his long studies of others' efforts in crushing souls. He doesn't seem terribly concerned over who he gets to play with as long as the US judicial system continues to provide victims. Which it does with utter indifference over their fate. So, for me one of the themes would be the descent into madness of the US judicial system since 9-11 with its ultimate rejection of the rule of law, due process, protections against cruel and unusual punishment, etc. The prison is a death camp by design, like Auschwitz. and no one really knows or cares, as these men are tossed into this modern oubliette or cares if any surface again. better if they don't really. But I felt compelled to read to the end to see how part 1 and 2 would be resolved in part 3.

George wrote: "yes!, as well, but it's a pretty long list of themes for such a short book. I found the use of magical realism so interesting in part 1 that I was initially irritated when the plot shifted away in ..."

Amazing post! I have been disturbed by the warden and uncle ever since I read the book, but I was having trouble explaining it. You nailed it! I will say that while things have gotten markedly worse since 9-11, the judicial system has never been fair to persons of color.

George wrote: "yes!, as well, but it's a pretty long list of themes for such a short book. I found the use of magical realism so interesting in part 1 that I was initially irritated when the plot shifted away in ..."

So true about the warden and the justice system, George.

And, as jo mentioned, this is not a story about autism. It's a story of imprisonment and, as Rebecca said, redemption.

What did you think of the ending then George?

Angela wrote: "George wrote: "yes!, as well, but it's a pretty long list of themes for such a short book. I found the use of magical realism so interesting in part 1 that I was initially irritated when the plot s..."

I keep going back to Auschwitz as it was the ultimate expression of the Holocaust, the culmination of efforts to improve the Final Solution, scientifically in many respects. there were many partial failures along the way. and I can't imagine putting up the death camp slogan on the prison to be anything less than an effort to connect the two institutions and the
systems that created them.

The US judicial system has never been remotely fair to people of color, which is why no one reading the book with Ferguson in the news can't help but be affected by it. We've had a period of time since the late 40s perhaps since we had reason to hope in other possibilities, some reason to believe the system was capable of reform. Since 9-11, the judicial system has rationalized violence, torture, etc. against enemies of the state. Congress and DHS have militarized the police forces in the US at every level, selling war surplus weapons and systems, providing military training which these local forces find more and more excuses to deploy. SWAT teams have been deployed in an amazing variety of circumstances, in situations that aren't remotely dangerous or related to felonious activities, much less violent crime. Ferguson is more or less a rational extention of that war like approach to law enforcement, not an aberration. but we have it displayed on our TV screens night after night, and it bothers us to see it, although it clearly doesn't bother quite a few.

anyway, I'm still processing the ending and how I feel about it. so much revolves around the various characters being unable to express themselves, to communicate with each other, leading to a variety of problems. Horus and Sepheri do not, cannot communicate directly but do manage to reach each other on a mystical non-rational manner. so, what does it all mean? hmmm... very interesting and emotionally engaging though.

Wilhelmina wrote: "I have tried to comment about the supermax prison in which Horus is incarcerated, but it is so bleak and horrific and evil that I am at a loss for words. "

The supermax prison gave me flashbacks of the Attica prison revolt in 1971. Governor Rockefeller in his class-conscious non-response, allowed the carnage to continue because the prisoners and the corrections staff were viewed as being of the same social class.

George wrote: "The US judicial system has never been remotely fair to people of color..."

...and the beat(down) goes on.

Sarah wrote: "Wilhelmina wrote: "I have tried to comment about the supermax prison in which Horus is incarcerated, but it is so bleak and horrific and evil that I am at a loss for words. "

The supermax prison g..." yes, it does.

Great comments, everyone!

If you haven't posted a question over at the author Q&A, be sure to do so. It looks like Morowa Yejide is dropping by early to answer questions as she has time!

The link is here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

spoilers for the entire book allowed from this point forward!

It sounds like people are itching to discuss the whole book, so unless anyone has a problem, I will open it up for discussion a day early. (If you're still finishing up, look away!)

Imprisonment and redemption seem like two important themes to talk about. I’d like to refer back to our working list of types of prisons:

"autism, gluttony, self-hate, inanition*, racism, vengefulness, and ...incarceration"

I would consider some of these self-imposed, while others – autism, racism, incarceration – are imposed by outside forces beyond the person's control. What is the difference between prisons we impose on ourselves and those that are imposed on us? What are the effects of incarceration on Horus? Of autism on Sephiri? Are they the same or different than, say, those of Brenda’s self-imposed prison?

I agree with what has been said about Part II.
This was powerful writing and one of the best pieces of horror fiction that I have read in a long time.
While reading this part - I thought this is better than "Scared Straight" as a determent for going to prison.
It also showed what a "blind eye" many take to make sure that profits/numbers are being met in the corporate world. Even more so when it involves "people" many want to be invisible.

Michael wrote: "It sounds like people are itching to discuss the whole book, so unless anyone has a problem, I will open it up for discussion a day early. (If you're still finishing up, look away!)

Imprisonment ..."

I think at imposing "prisons" upon ourselves is a survival technique - needed so we can "survive" in certain situations.

An interesting question on Yahoo Answers I stumbled across this morning you may find interesting.

Is it almost certain that the Boston Bomber will be spending his life in Colorado Supermax a fate worse than death.... HAHAHAHHAHA?

Here's something else of considerable interest on the question of the militarization of the police nationwide and in Ferguson in particular, Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Ferguson, MO and Police Militarization (HBO), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHI...

if you haven't seen it yet, you really should give it a look.

Thanks for the posts, George; the state of our prison system/law enforcement is such a nightmare.

Beverly wrote: "I think at imposing "prisons" upon ourselves is a survival technique - needed so we can "survive" in certain situations"

I agree with your point, Beverly, a prison keeps things in, but it also keeps things out.

What did you all think of Manden's prison? I thought the entire chapter entitled "Bastille" read like a metaphor for all of the mental prisons in the book. Here's a quote:

80% (Nook p.177) "And so the glass information booth, from which Manden administered small doses of power, was a fortress, bulletproof and impervious to injury and insult. And it was only when he was outside of the booth, like on the other days of the week, when he was on another post or special detail, that he was vulnerable."

Again, I keep thinking of the cost of all these "prisons" on everyone. At first, an emotional/mental fortress can protect you from terrible events, but what happens when the events are over, or you have grown up, or moved on, but the fortress is still there? This whole idea is very profound to me, that we can create walls to protect ourselves, but the protective walls can become impenetrable prisons that trap us if we are not careful.

21% (Nook p.46) "This feeling, which drifted to (Manden) every morning, was precisely the sort of thing that he did not like to think about, and that first swallow of hot coffee blotted it out."

24% (Nook p.54) "... (Manden) was unreachable even to himself, and he felt incapable of helping (Brenda) in spite of bearing witness to her self-destruction."

26% (Nook p.58) "Manden had only ever wanted to know what was wrong with (Sephiri) – or what was right with him that made him able to sweep a tiring world away."

This was more what I was trying to say earlier about Sephiri's isolation from the world. It can be seen as both good and bad. His being shut off from the world protects him from having to grieve the loss of his father, but the cost is his inability to connect with the people that are still in his life, like his mother and his uncle.

What's the takeaway from all this talk about prisons? Are the people in this book doing a good job negotiating their prisons, or are they lost? Do any of them find redemption?

Also, if you were planning on asking Morowa Yejide a question for our author Q&A, today is our official deadline for questions. Make sure to post yours here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Hello again, everybody. Looks like the discussion over here has quieted a bit; perhaps everyone has been reading the great Q&A with Morowa Yejide! I thought Ms. Yejide provided us with a lot of rare insight into her work and her process, and gave us a lot of food for thought. What a treat!

Looking over this thread, I see a lot of 4 and 5 star ratings. Does anyone want to talk about what they loved most about the book? For me, it was the loving way that Ms. Yejide looked so deeply into all of the characters. They were all broken and self-destructive in some way, and yet I felt compassion for (almost) all of them.

Could we talk a little more about magical realism - when is it effective, whether you think it was effective in this book?

I'm game, though I haven't figured it all out exactly...

I think I mentioned before that I like the idea of magical realism used as an analogy. For example, Horus and Sephiri meeting in the boat felt like a true reunion, and yet, it couldn't really be happening, could it? It seemed like the magic of their meeting was being used to express the earnest desire of connection between parent and child, father and son. In particular, a redemption from the unbearable loss of connection among generations of African American fathers and sons. Overall, I found the ending filled me with a sense of hope and joy, although there is a part of me wondering if this story is also supposed to be tragic: i.e., why is it that this beautiful reunion and sharing of hearts could only happen in a dream? It worked for me because I am such a believer in dreams as a way to shape reality.

One question I had was whether people considered the Land of Water to be magical realism? For me, I loved the world of the Octopus that Sephiri visited, but I pretty much considered that to be a representation of how his brain works, and not a magical world, per se. Sephiri's story only became magical to me when he started searching for the light in the closet and hearing the voice saying "Come here...". In fact, I thought that was a beautiful part of what Ms. Yejide did with both Horus' and Sephiri's mental journeys. Their worlds were already stretching the line between reality and imagination - Sephiri because of his autism, Horus because of his need to escape mentally from the nightmare of prison. Because of that, it was hard to tell where their imaginations ended and the magic began, which I think was the point. I thought it was done brilliantly.

Wilhelmina wrote: "Could we talk a little more about magical realism - when is it effective, whether you think it was effective in this book?"

Time of the Locust is an emotionally powerfully story and the use of magical realism in this story actually enhances the readers emotional connections to the characters.

I would certainly agree with that. In the real world, things seem pretty grim for just about everyone. What emotional relief they, and the reader, get is more in the magical realm. My real question as well is whether the reader is expected to take these events at face value as actual events experienced by Sephiri and Horus and the Mummy. it seems so.

Not sure if this will be my last question for the month or not; certainly if anyone else has comments or questions they want to add, please feel free.

I wanted to address something that showed up in Book One and came full circle by the end of the book. Here are the quotes:

32% (Nook p.73) "That was how he learned about the locusts of his dreams. 'Well, they only rear up when it is their time,' the dolphin said as they floated together on their backs looking at the cloud formations. 'They are the message carriers.'"

33% (Nook p.75) "A voice difficult to hear meant there was a choice to be made between realms of existence. The boy had been a part of their realm for many years, and he knew that this could mean that he would stop visiting forever. But he could not withhold the truth. That would break a universal law."

Both of these quotes seemed to imply to me that things come on their own time. I liked the cyclical nature of things implied by the locusts. Things incubating deep below the surface until the finally rise up for all to see. It seemed Ms. Yejide was hammering this home by making events take place 7 years after Horus' incarceration. What do you all think about the idea of things happening in cycles?

The second quote seemed important because each of the characters in the book seemed stuck in a rut, and the "voice difficult to hear" seemed to represent the idea of change. I certainly have experienced this myself when I'm mulling over a difficult change in my life. What do you think was difficult for each of the characters to hear? Did they end up listening?

I loved the idea of a time for change, percolating under the surface of things. Locusts are perfect for this - invisible until the time to emerge comes. The ending of this book, to me, is the fulfillment of that time - a time when the barriers between stark reality and magical possibilities thin and dissolve. There is enough mystery in the ending that we aren't entirely sure how the Land of the Air will be affected, but the changes are hinted at in Sephiri's smile. Just the hint of a promise of a better day.

This book clarified a lot for me in terms of my feelings about magical realism. For me, it works best in situations where no hope of change exists without it. That darkness is so thoroughly in control that no light can be seen. In such times, that hint of a quiet voice breaking through, as you said, Michael - in its own time and when it is heard by those willing to listen - changes everything. As the Octopus said, what follows is truth. Not facts, but truth. And we get to bear witness.

Thank you, Michael, for this great discussion and thank you, Morowa, for an unforgettable book that came at just the right time.

You're welcome, Wilhelmina! And thanks to everyone for participating this month! I thought we had a great discussion, and what a wonderful bonus it was to have a Q&A with Ms. Yejide!

Feel free to keep commenting now or in the future, since all these discussion threads stay open in case anyone has more they would like to discuss...

I wanted to offer my deep appreciation to you all for taking the time to read and discuss my book- which is a lot to ask in this busy world. I will carry your thoughts and reflections with me as gifts. All my best- Morowa

I add my thanks too. Ditto on what Mina said

Agreed! Thanks so much Morowa and Michael!

Thank you Morowa for your enormous contribution to our group. I hope to catch you at your next appearance in town. (I'll keep checking your website!)

yes, that was certainly a high light for me as well, thanks, Morowa.

Wilhelmina wrote: "jo wrote: "hi michael. i can't find the bit where rebecca expresses upset over brenda's endangering of her health. i think that yejide's description of the financial, time-management, and day-to-da..."

I know I'm late to this discussion, but this novel moved me so much I have to add to the already spot-on comments.
Yes, yes, yes to your comments about Brenda. I believe she was imprisoned by Sephiri's autism, the inherent racism surrounding her, and the resulting inanition. I would not ascribe gluttony to her since she is "hanging on by her fingernails". Her poor health is a result of her other prisons. I would say Stotsky & Eckhert were guilty of gluttony. They seemed to feast on the imprisonment of men.

Michael wrote: "I'd like to pose two more questions about Brenda's isolation before moving to a different topic. I looked over Part One to see that I highlighted two different passages:

10% (p22 on my Nook) - (A..."

Brenda's isolation shines a spotlight on how modern life tends to distance us even when we live so close to one another. People have so much going on in their own lives they can hardly look up and into someone else's. If they can, sometimes it's not enough & would fall short of what's needed (why Brenda rejected her church). I would imagine her neighbors experience an unconscious shame for their treatment of her which continues to drive the cycle of isolation. Brenda is fantastic in every sense of the word.

Michael wrote: "Well, it seems everyone got quiet the last day or so and when moderating a thread I never know if that is the current topic, the randomness of people's lives, or distractions by other world events...."

I commend you all for maintaining this discussion as the tragic murder of Michael Brown unfolded. Over 60 days later, we still have no justice. Someone posted on FB yesterday: "Everyone is getting arrested in Ferguson, except Darren Wilson." I'm writing this comment as I watch last night's episode of "The Daily Show". Bryan Stevenson, professor at NYU's School of Law has a new book to be released on Oct 24th titled "Just Mercy" about our incarceration system. He mentioned "America fails to talk honestly about the consequences of the myth that created (and perpetuated) slavery.... Our corruption by the politics of fear and anger over the past four decades has led America to have the highest incarceration rate in the world." We need these stories to force the conversations that are past due in this country.

The Q&A session with Morowa Yejide was very enlightening. Great questions & her work and process has inspired me to step up my own writing game. She's right about this group having the most astute individuals. We have the best selections and discussions. Thank you.

Thanks for taking the time to comment on the thread, Tiffany! You've made some good points, and I am enjoying thinking about this book and its themes again.

Wonderful comments, Tiffany!

wow interesting comments on this last page, and I just got the book today. Hmmm.

You're welcome, Michael. And thanks, Wilhemina. I hope you enjoy this novel as much as we all have, Adrienna.