Flights of Fantasy discussion

I read this yesterday. Awesome story.

Question is, are we just reading the story or a collection? And if so...there are about 2345 difference collections to choose from.

I just finished the story and I feel like my head just spun in a complete circle. Which is just how I like to feel after reading something like this. I love things like fate and paradoxes and such. Good story.

I'd be open to reading more. But my book had the one story only and I'd have to wait until next Saturday to get anymore from my library.

I think we should probably just do the one story... though I think it's novella length, yeah? (So it doesn't feel like a ripoff?)

That makes sense, Becky. Otherwise we'd probably never be able to agree on which collection to go with.

Glad you liked it, Nienna. I love a story that keeps you thinking after you've finished it.

Starting this one now!

I'm nearly finished with the Grossbart novel... Finally! So hopefully in some days I will start this one too!!

Started this today. It's definitely interesting so far.

I didn't care for it. *sigh* This always happens.

I liked it well enough if I was just looking at the SF thriller aspect, but if I thought about it at all, it just annoyed me. :(

So I just started it today - I'll try to get it finished up today.

I really hate having a different media in my head when reading a book/story.

MrsJoseph wrote: "So I just started it today - I'll try to get it finished up today.

I really hate having a different media in my head when reading a book/story."

What do you mean by different media? The movie?

Yeah, the movie.

I don't remember if I saw the movie. I think I'm going to watch it though, just to compare.

I really enjoyed the movie so the differences are a little jarring - which is why I prefer to read prior to watching, lol.

Yup. Me too.

I finished this this morning, and I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it's a quick thriller read, and I was definitely caught up in it. But I also found myself dissatisfied with the characters, and, while I think that Dick did something interesting, I thought it was...too contained(?). For example (view spoiler)[what effect did Precrime have on the society at large? We only really see the system itself and the former's military's reaction to it (hide spoiler)]. I don't know, I just found myself wanting a bit more.

Sinistmer, that's exactly how I felt. (view spoiler)[That was my big problem with it as well, and I was really disappointed that there was NO examination of any of the implications or moral or ethical questions pertaining to the system. (hide spoiler)]

Oh wait, that was it? Only the first 45 pages of the book? The rest are other stories? Oops... Then it did not move me very much....
I was reading on in the book and wondering how on earth all these different personalities all would come back into one story, but then... they don't!
Minority Report was fun, but nothing fantastic.

LOL Elise, I've done that before. Many times, unfortunately.

I judge books and short stories different. Something that would bug me in a book, I forgive in a short story. I did have a problem with the end though, (view spoiler)[ the killing and aftermath were anti climatic. (hide spoiler)] But I can forgive it.

I like the movie too. But I don't think I remember it.

I judge them differently too, though most of the time I actually judge short stories a little harsher than novels. I have read a lot of really amazing short stories and I feel like if you're going to write in that format, you need to be that much better to make the story work in a shorter form. In a novel, you have more room to ramble.

Becky wrote: "I judge them differently too, though most of the time I actually judge short stories a little harsher than novels. I have read a lot of really amazing short stories and I feel like if you're going ..."

Ooooh agreed! I do, too.

Becky wrote: "I judge them differently too, though most of the time I actually judge short stories a little harsher than novels. I have read a lot of really amazing short stories and I feel like if you're going ..."

Well said!

Though the issue I've seen a lot lately is giving them more room to ramble means they'll..ummm....use it.

I'm usually not a huge fan of short stories for these reasons, but I do appreciate it if I don't have to push through 999 pages of fluff to get to the point of it.

Fair point!

Chris wrote: "Though the issue I've seen a lot lately is giving them more room to ramble means they'll..ummm....use it.

I'm usually not a huge fan of short stories for these reasons, but I do appreciate it if I..."

This is very true.

This was one of the rare, if not the first, sci-fi short story I read. I'm much more into novels and series.

I wasn't impressed by the style. I understand it's a short story, but it felt too rushed. I didn't get any ambience or mood whatsoever. It felt as though Dick was in a hurry to get his idea out there.

The concept is interesting, and gains in relevance once put in its historical context.

I wonder how "tapes" fare when dealing in space travel =)

Finally finished! I'm still debating my rating.

MrsJoseph wrote: "Finally finished! I'm still debating my rating."

Kneejerk reaction, go!

Becky wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "Finally finished! I'm still debating my rating."

Kneejerk reaction, go!"

Like...2.5 stars is the kneejerk.

Current review (still in progress):

(view spoiler)[I'm still trying to decide how I feel about this read. On one hand...the story has a pretty fast pace that makes it easy to read. On the other hand...the ending is rather abrupt and did not feel satisfying. I have to wonder if the fact that I saw the Tom Cruise Minority Report flick made the story "less-than" for me. The differences in the story vs the movie are pretty vast - you can see the framework of PKD's "The Minority Report" in the movie but Minority Report has a drastically different storyline while still maintaining the same basic plot: Anderton being accused of murdering someone he doesn't know.

Philip K. Dick has written tons and tons of stories and books - most notably the twelve (12) stories that have been adapted to film. These films include major hits such as Blade Runner (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?), Total Recall ("We Can Remember It For You Wholesale") and A Scanner Darkly (A Scanner Darkly). While Philip K. Dick's work is renowned - this is the first time I've read any of his work. I'm not quite sure what I was expecting - though I greatly enjoyed the work of his contemporary: Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

I really can't say that I did not enjoy the read but I can say that I didn't fell very engaged either. There was a distinct...separation between me and the text that never went away.



I also felt that the world-building did not contain enough detail for me to understand the devastating wars that were mentioned briefly nor the current governmental and military situation(s). What did the war have to do with the existence of the Precrime Division? What made the government create (or allow the creation of) the Precrime Division? Were there any moral issues during the creation of and the running of the Precrime Division?

The moral aspects of the Precrime Division really bothered me as well. The majority of the story gives the impression that there were no issues or uprisings against Precrime BUT people were being arrested based on the "future" and had technically never committed the crimes they were imprisoned for. In addition to the would-be murderers and traitors who were imprisoned...what about the remaining would-be criminals that were arrested and/or fined based on information provided by the precogs?

"Much of their [the precogs] data is worthless to us - simply not relevant to our line. We pass it on to the appropriate agencies. And they in turn trade data with us. Every important bureau has its cellar of treasured monkeys.
-Philip K. Dick, "The Minority Report," page 73

All in all, I can see the brilliance of the idea and I enjoyed reading the original story that inspired the movie...but I can't say that The Minority Report makes me want to read additional work by Philip K. Dick. (hide spoiler)]

I want to discuss, but I have a call right now. So hold those thoughts. :D

:D

MrsJ: (view spoiler)[You say... "The ending of the story felt a little...hypocritical. One of the biggest issues in the story is that Anderton had no reason to want to murder anyone and once he knew about the murder plot the precogs showed he changed his mind based on that data. So why was the precrime department not shut down and/or modified?"

Well, the plot wasn't really against ANDERTON, necessarily, he was just the person with the power that needed to be out of the way. The plot/catalyst was really for the Army to reclaim their relevance, and to do that, it had to ruin precrime. They were banking on Anderton seeing the card, and NOT killing anyone, and thus debunking Precrime's ability to accurately function. They were aiming for society to rally against the practice of jailing people that havent' done anything (technically) based on evidence that even their highest figure could be wrongfully accused.

Anderton's loyalty and first priority is precrime. He thinks of that above his own needs, so even though he was ruined by the very thing he created, he still figured out a way to protect it. He made sure that it was still accurate and functioning as designed, and since it wasn't wrong, there's no reason to change it. (You know, leaving out ethics or morality.) (hide spoiler)]

Becky wrote: "spoiler"

True - but what about when (view spoiler)[ His wife pulls a gun on him to make him go back to the police? That - to me - showed he didn't care as much as he claimed. I think he only shot the guy because the majority report was out there already.

Or when he thinks that the tape showing the original minority report should show that the majority report was wrong? He thinks that he would be cleared except that he was being set up to begin with. (hide spoiler)]

I think it's interesting that (view spoiler)[the different reports accounted for the final action. I think..I got a little confused on that point (hide spoiler)]. My frustration is that we see almost none of the aftermath of Anderton's actions.

I totally meant to reply MrsJ, but then I got caught up with work (Pfft!) and forgot.

So, regarding that, I think (view spoiler)[He wasn't willing to kill his wife (who he had had a change of heart about) in that moment. And honestly, most of the story is him just going along wherever the plot took him.

He had to shoot the guy to generate the majority report, which caused it to exist for him to get caught up. LOL It's a paradox, but one that had to follow that path ONLY BECAUSE Anderton was so set on Precrime succeeding and continuing. If he didn't care, then the whole thing would have flopped from the beginning, because 1) the army would try to set him up with a false report, 2) he'd see it and realize it was ridiculous, so the precogs would have a majority report of him deciding NOT to kill - thus no report at all. (hide spoiler)]

Sinistmer, I totally agree. I wanted to know more about the non-plotline situation. What happened after, what society thought about it... etc.

I read it, loved it, moved on.

You know, I'm really glad we're talking about this - it's making me give the story a little more thought! Not sure if it's what you meant to do but I think you changed my mind about something.

(view spoiler)[So I've been going around and around in my head with this and rereading parts of the text - purely because I wanted to show you why I felt a certain way - and that's when I actually paid attention to the fact that there was no majority report. I was so disengaged by the time I got to that part.

But then - what does that do to the ethics/morals? If there was no majority report - does that mean that the system does work as designed?

Which totally invalidates most of my review, lol. So, does that mean that faced with the knowledge from the report - any criminal who would still commit that particular act (after being confronted with the data) would create another paradox like Anderton? Thus making it impossible to confront the criminal with the data - only arresting them?
(hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[Well, there both was and wasn't a majority report. 2 of the 3 reports said he'd kill... it was just for different reasons. So if you don't look at the details and are just looking for reporting agreement, it counts. Or if you dont care about the details.

But if you examine them, they are all minority reports." (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[To be honest, I thought that the second story was actually the second chapter. And just when the main character was introduced I was thinking that perhaps this was Anderton, but in disguise on another planet! I soon got confused and found out that The Minority Report actually stops after 45 pages. I would have loved to know what happened to Anderton after he had committed the murder. I could think of so many ways to expand this story!! (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[
I couldn't get past the fact that all reports should be something like Anderton's: all minorities.

The second that a precog foresees a crime, precrime learns of it. The following report is precrime acting, resulting in no crime, and the third report results in a crime because precrime didn't act because of the second report.

Or some similar paradox.
(hide spoiler)]

That is an interesting question, Eric - but (view spoiler)[I don't see that really being a scenario that would occur except very rarely. I'd think that in order for that to be the case, it would depend both on very tight timing and the 'criminal' knowing that their name came up, which would spur them to revise their decision to kill almost immediately.

For a regular person to have multiple minority reports, they'd have to know about the fact that precrime is coming for them. I guess you could argue that they should probably assume that to be the case, but then if everyone did that, there'd be no need for precrime to exist at all, because nobody would decide to commit a crime so that there'd be no risk of being preemptively arrested for it.

In my mind, there has to be a pretty big limitation of precognition. There are only 3 precogs, and they all are looking at the same crimes. Say they are able to predict 50% of all violent crimes, or something like that... It's a big enough prediction percentage to look extremely effective on paper, and people would be frightened of committing crimes, so they'd avoid even thinking of committing a crime, which accounts for the other half, right?

Anderton's situation only occurred because it all happened within like a day, so it was a close enough timeframe for the precogs to all see the same timeframe with different outcomes because he knew his name came up and was able to rethink his actions over the next day. (hide spoiler)]

(PS. I hope that makes sense!)

Thanks for the discussion - I'm inspired to look up this story again.

MrsJoseph wrote: "So I just started it today - I'll try to get it finished up today.

I really hate having a different media in my head when reading a book/story."

Me too. I like the movie a whole lot, and I like the ways it expands on the idea of pre-judged guilt. The book being a simpler look at the same concept just kinda bounced off me.