SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

I think this discussion belongs in the language thread! :)

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Pancakes in Australia were more the flat ones like a French Crepe. Nowadays people are becoming more americanised and we also call the thinker ones pancakes. Unless they are small and then we call them pikelets.

Please continue this discussion in the thread I linked above!

And in Ukraine biscuit is what you'd call cake like this http://biscuit.com.ua/image/catalog/p...

Really, please move to the language thread. These aren’t things that are wrong, just national differences!

Ever notice that most sex scenes start with lots of attention to the woman’s nipples? I think most women don’t find that as titilating as men might think they do. I would suggest a little neck nibbling or something just for variety. Unless the books are being written primarily for men?

Porn movies are no different. A whole generation is growing up doing it wrong because they only learn how to from books and porn.

Abbie wrote: "Ever notice that most sex scenes start with lots of attention to the woman’s nipples? I think most women don’t find that as titilating as men might think they do. I would suggest a little neck nibbling or something just for variety. Unless the books are being written primarily for men?..."

I think we just learned more about Abbie than we were expecting to.

Although this seems to fall under personal preference rather than objective fact.

I would agree that most male authors who describe erotica or sex scenes have it wrong about what truly excite/stimulate women. What they write too often reflects the fantasies/tastes of men rather than those of women. They could use a talk or two with a woman who teaches sexuality. This may sounds trivial but the fact is that romances, flirting scenes and sex scenes actually are significant parts in many books. Let's get it right, guys!

Michel wrote: "I would agree that most male authors who describe erotica or sex scenes have it wrong about what truly excite/stimulate women. What they write too often reflects the fantasies/tastes of men rather ..."

I find sex scenes boring because they typically bring a story to a screeching halt, so I mostly avoid them, but this sounds simultaneously misogynist and misandrist. Women have a range of interests and predilections. I would never engage in anything remotely resembling the goings-on in 50 Shades of Grey, but that book was written by a woman and its biggest audience was women, many of whom are self-described as “conservative Christians”.

A friend of mine who is a professor of women’s studies says she equates sex with punishment (as an enjoyable experience, not a negative one), which is a thought so foreign to me that it feels alien. As in Klingonesque.

I suspect that whatever it is you like, regardless of your internal gender norms or cultural background, you’ll likely find someone out there who enjoys your same reindeer games, and that has nothing to do with your gender as an author.

Easy, y'all. I don't think it's contentious to say that there is a definite POV in most books and most people could use a bit more education in overcoming their biases or better exploring their fantasies.

Trike wrote: "Michel wrote: "I would agree that most male authors who describe erotica or sex scenes have it wrong about what truly excite/stimulate women. What they write too often reflects the fantasies/tastes..."

Trike, we were talking about bad sex scenes in books, not about women's general preferences and interests. I do respect a lot women and always treat them as equal, so calling me misogynist for giving my opinion about how badly sex scenes are written is really missing the mark. And I know that sex is not everything, very far from it.

Well, I can't imagine asking a female friend something like "hey, I'm writing a sex scene for a book, can you tell me what turns women on?" and as some writers are introverts, they might be in the same boat...
So, on that matter, I can understand that it's about the author's fantasies more than reality.

Michel wrote: "Trike, we were talking about bad sex scenes in books, not about women's general preferences and interests. I do respect a lot women and always treat them as equal, so calling me misogynist for giving my opinion about how badly sex scenes are written is really missing the mark.."

The way you phrased it in near-absolutes didn’t make it sound like an opinion.

Hey, there aren't points being awarded here. Kinkshaming isn't great, good point that there seems to be some "art imitating art" out there, there are a lot of great resources out there to learn more about erotica without having to cross boundaries, and speaking of boundaries, I'm drawing one here! We can talk about other funny things we've noticed about sex scenes, or other things we've seen be wrong, but let's not make this personal, comprende?

Tomas wrote: "Well, I can't imagine asking a female friend something like "hey, I'm writing a sex scene for a book, can you tell me what turns women on?" and as some writers are introverts, they might be in the ..."

I wouldn’t have any problem asking my aforementioned friend, but there is so much writing out there by women that you don’t really need to engage in real life conversation. (Thank god. People; ick.)

In my experience, women of my generation are far more comfortable talking about sex than the men of my generation. In fact, I mentioned this the other day while encountering some of my women neighbors during my dog walk. They had just put the kids on the bus and were standing around chatting. The conversation focused on some TV show (Other Way Fiancé something-or-other) and sex with foreign men.

I started laughing and they were like, “What?” I said, “All the men in the neighborhood talk about lawn maintenance, the weather and sports, while you ladies are full-on R-rated.”

Honestly, I've never read a sex scene that anywhere resembled the awkwardness of the real thing.

Micah wrote: "Honestly, I've never read a sex scene that anywhere resembled the awkwardness of the real thing."

“Honey, you look really nice.”
“Mom, I’m in the middle of something here.”

Trike wrote: "I find sex scenes boring because they typically bring a story to a screeching halt, so I mostly avoid them, but this sounds simultaneously misogynist and misandrist. Women have a range of interests and predilections. I would never engage in anything remotely resembling the goings-on in 50 Shades of Grey, but that book was written by a woman and its biggest audience was women, many of whom are self-described as “conservative Christians”.

A friend of mine who is a professor of women’s studies says she equates sex with punishment (as an enjoyable experience, not a negative one), which is a thought so foreign to me that it feels alien. As in Klingonesque.

I suspect that whatever it is you like, regardless of your internal gender norms or cultural background, you’ll likely find someone out there who enjoys your same reindeer games, and that has nothing to do with your gender as an author."

This is very true.

It's also true that a lot of sex scenes written by men for SFF (vice Romance) are written with a bit more of the male gaze. A lot of the goings on make me side eye quite a bit.

Honestly, it reminds me of a conversation I had with one of hubby's friends:

We were at a (bad) concert that he (friend) was enjoying. Friend says "Y'all got this all wrong! Take your girl to something like this and its instant foreplay! When you get home, BAM!"

I looked at him like he'd just kicked me. Then I told him. "NO! No, bad [name]. That is NOT foreplay [for women] and never let someone tell you so. That is romance which is a different beast entirely from foreplay."

Now, for some women, simply going to a concert could be foreplay. But for most of us, foreplay is a little more involved.


BUT. DON'T GET IT TWISTED.

Writing a sex scene is part technique and part art. And a LOT of women are shit at it as well. 50SG lady in specific. I mean, she's shit and a P2PFF writer who should have had the living shit sued out of her but whateves. Just...as a reader of BDSM, please don't invoke HER name when talking BDSM erotica, please? Just as a favor. ;-)

I read one sex scene (this was RH, not BDSM) that was so wrong and so convoluted that I tried to draw a diagram (stick figures, of course) to visualize it. Final verdict? 100% physically impossible.

Tomas wrote: "Well, I can't imagine asking a female friend something like "hey, I'm writing a sex scene for a book, can you tell me what turns women on?" and as some writers are introverts, they might be in the same boat...
So, on that matter, I can understand that it's about the author's fantasies more than reality."

Maybe not. But you sure could as women to beta read for you and tell you where you screwed the pooch regarding the sex scenes. That would do wonders.

And you can ask followers if you social media. You can ask real friends who aren't shy as well.

Micah wrote: "Honestly, I've never read a sex scene that anywhere resembled the awkwardness of the real thing."

Faking It

Has one of THE worst sex scenes (that was bad because authorial intent instead of bad writing) hands down. Its awkward and uncomfortable for alllll involved. The characters and the reader, lol.

Trike wrote: "I started laughing and they were like, “What?” I said, “All the men in the neighborhood talk about lawn maintenance, the weather and sports, while you ladies are full-on R-rated.” "

In my neighborhood, thats all most people talk about: lawns and home care

Except one person let their knucklehead grandchild + husband and baby move in for a while. THAT had the block chittering for months.

I think one of the main reasons why a lot of women read 50SOG was because finally erotica was in the mainstream and they could sit on a bus or train and read it. Everyone was doing it. It was the only one of its type out there and since there was a need for it then it became popular. Not my type of thing though. The BDSM that is not the erotica bit. Horses for courses though. Not knocking anyone who does like it that way. It would just be good if they could write about sex whatever way you like it better.

Tomas wrote: "Well, I can't imagine asking a female friend something like "hey, I'm writing a sex scene for a book, can you tell me what turns women on?" and as some writers are introverts, they might be in the ..."

Well, I wouldn't mind being asked, by a friend. And there's lots of material available. I think Michel may have overstated a bit, but mostly I agree with him. In books, a lot of erotic interludes could be handled with more grace and be more interesting.

For example, a lot goes into just how a guy would look at me, like he was really interested in all of me, grok?

Michel wrote: "I would agree that most male authors who describe erotica or sex scenes have it wrong about what truly excite/stimulate women. What they write too often reflects the fantasies/tastes of men rather ..."

This reminds me of a really funny video that I have lost the link to. A comedienne does a talk about men and women. She starts off by saying that children's bodies are sensory all over, but after puberty women are still like that but men's are concentrated... (of course it's humour and exaggerated).

Abbie wrote: "Ever notice that most sex scenes start with lots of attention to the woman’s nipples? I think most women don’t find that as titilating as men might think they do. I would suggest a little neck nibb..."

I just skip most sex scenes because, for example, the word nibbling you used makes me think of rodents. I find many word choices used in sex scenes are distracting like this. I prefer more left to the imagination. Also, I don't find that sex scenes do much to move the plot forward as a rule. Once I finished my teen years sex scenes were no longer interesting to me to read.

Trike wrote: "I find sex scenes boring because they typically bring a story to a screeching halt, so I mostly avoid them, but this sounds simultaneously misogynist and misandrist. Women have a range of interests and predilections. I would never engage in anything remotely resembling the goings-on in 50 Shades of Grey, but that book was written by a woman and its biggest audience was women, many of whom are self-described as “conservative Christians”.."

I agree. I'm all for sex IRL (my kids came the traditional biological way, but don't think I am against other ways--two of my brothers were adopted into my family and are just as much part of it as the bio kids!!!) but that doesn't mean I'm interested in reading it.

My only taste of 50 Shades of Grey was the essay in Dave Barry's You Can Date Boys When You're Forty: Dave Barry on Parenting and Other Topics He Knows Very Little About

This is not to say that I have gone my entire life without reading erotica. I learned many things at the ripe old age of 13 when we stayed at an abandoned logging camp and I found some old pornographic newspapers. Okay, closed while the trees grew back. There were caretakers. I come from a colourful background. We slept there a night or two when we were out on the boat. My dad knew the caretakers (plus the ones at the one we stayed at that was only closed for the dry season when I was about 18.)

My dad was not a logger (what we call them in BC), but had made house calls by both boat and float plane way back when so knew a lot of these people.

I had a friend who wrote romance novels with some pretty steamy sex scenes. I used to look at her and her husband and wonder....

Unfortunately I never asked her and as she passed away a while back, I'll never get the chance.

CBRetriever wrote: "I had a friend who wrote romance novels with some pretty steamy sex scenes. I used to look at her and her husband and wonder....

Unfortunately I never asked her and as she passed away a while back..."

Lube accident?

a cigarette smoker and cancer of the larynx which is a death I wouldn't wish on anyone

Cheryl wrote: "And there's lots of material available."

Do you mind mentioning some of the 'material'?

MrsJoseph *grouchy* wrote: "Maybe not. But you sure could as women to beta read for you and tell you where you screwed the pooch regarding the sex scenes. That would do wonders. "

I actually asked two women who write romance and who I talk with here on GR have a look just at the scenes while giving them a bit of background (so they don't need to read the whole tome) so that helps, yeah.

---
I've read a few books where the sex scene was done in a way that showed some more about the character's personalities so it wasn't 'for nothing'.

One more thing that came to my mind right now (though I guess that should go more into the game thread) is that someone had mentioned on a game forum how the devs silently stopped making the (in)famous 'platekini' armor and how the American 'guns great, violence okay, boobs bad' approach to games/movies contrasts with how a European sees that.

I can see into the future:


- There is a thread in the Authors folder about Writing Mature Content

- There is a new thread in the Chat folder titled Let's Talk About Sex

- This thread continues on the topic of books that get something wrong

There's actually a writing mature content thread deep in the author section where I was quite active back in 2018, so we can move there, I guess?

Yes please! :)

Trike wrote: "Abbie wrote: "Ever notice that most sex scenes start with lots of attention to the woman’s nipples? I think most women don’t find that as titilating as men might think they do. I would suggest a li..."

How many women have you asked?

If you want to keep talking about sex, let's do that in the thread linked above, thanks!

Being a science teacher for many years i often get amazed at how the human body gets explained incorrectly.

as well evolution theory. NO we wont grow long fingers because we use computers a lot

Kateb wrote: "
as well evolution theory. NO we wont grow long fingers because we use computers a lot"
True, but at one time I think that sort of thing was postulated, back in the dark ages of evolutionary theory and long before comptuers--I'll be darned if I can remember my source now, but it was in some history of science class. Well before the discovery of the DNA helix, etc.

Karin wrote: "Kateb wrote: "
as well evolution theory. NO we wont grow long fingers because we use computers a lot"
True, but at one time I think that sort of thing was postulated, back in the dark ages of evolu..."

Lamarckian inheritance? I always thought it was a shame that all the effort that people would put into learning math or running faster wasn't passed on. I've read a few old ('50s) SF books with that as a basis (maybe they count as fantasy now). More recently I've been seeing books with implants that that give people mental skills and knowledge acquired by their predecessors. That feels a bit like an attempted return to that view. There are also games that incorporate some of these ideas. Pokémon comes to mind.

Raucous wrote: "Lamarckian inheritance? I always thought it was a shame that all the effort that people would put into learning math or running faster wasn't passed on."

With epigenetics and such, Lamarckism has made a comeback in recent years. It’s not the classic example of the “giraffe stretches to reach leaves so baby giraffes have longer necks” but it’s definitely in the ballpark.

For instance, if your grandparents went through a period of plenty or a period of starvation, apparently that can impact your health, which then alters the genes and health of your kids and grandkids. Intriguing if true.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/41...
https://io9.gizmodo.com/how-an-1836-f...

and lamarck was around the same time as Darwin , so there is not excuse that it was a theory before Darwinism

Kateb wrote: "and lamarck was around the same time as Darwin , so there is not excuse that it was a theory before Darwinism"

A generation (or two if you consider when the wrote their magnum opuses) before and his contribution is not that small or negative.

Tomas wrote: "Well, I can't imagine asking a female friend something like "hey, I'm writing a sex scene for a book, can you tell me what turns women on?" and as some writers are introverts, they might be in the ..."

I was at a conference with Catherynne Valente, years and years ago, and she talked about the awkward conversations she had with her male friends (gay and straight) in order to write Palimpsest. So yea, it's awkward but an author who really wants to get things right will have those conversations.

Channel surfing the other night I saw the bit in Lord of the Rings where Gollum brings them rabbits. It has a weird mix of wrong and right.

This scene: https://youtu.be/JXuqJ4c1dxE

Sam calls the rabbits “conies”, which is thematically correct for that faux Ye Olde English. Coney Island in NYC is apparently so named because it was home to an abundance of rabbits.

But then he goes on about “po-TAY-toes” which is simply wrong for that world. The potato is a South American plant, brought to Europe by the conquistadors. So unless Middle Earth is in Peru, that’s a miss.

LotR’s influence means that lots of Epic Fantasy writers have been riffing off that scene. Subsisting on rabbits would lead to malnutrition if you’re not a hawk. We need to eat fat and conies are too lean. Eating rabbit can literally cause you to starve to death. Same goes for venison.

And I don’t know how cooking works with magic, but any kind of stew I’ve ever made has taken at least 2 hours. If you’re trying to cover ground, you’re not going to have the apparatus to prep a stew, nor the time to cook one.

...and now I’m hungry. Gonna go eat leftover Halloween candy now.

Trike wrote: "LotR’s influence means that lots of Epic Fantasy writers have been riffing off that scene. Subsisting on rabbits would lead to malnutrition if you’re not a hawk. We need to eat fat and conies are too lean. Eating rabbit can literally cause you to starve to death. Same goes for venison."

You know, I've heard that before - from a documentary I've saw about Eskimos. They were talking about lean vs fat meat. And speculated that if they had to eat like Americans - lots of lean chicken - they wouldn't make it through the harsh winters due to the lack of fat.

Trike wrote: "The potato is a South American plant, brought to Europe by the conquistadors. So unless Middle Earth is in Peru, that’s a miss."

Quit a few fantasy stories (which depict a world too similar to Medieval Europe) have potatoes, maize (corn), tomatoes or chili peppers and it always rubs me the wrong way. It is almost like Russian nationalists saying "we don't need America and their hamburgers, we can eat the food of our ancestors, potatoes and tomatoes" (true story)

Many a family survived the Great Depression here in Australia with a staple diet of rabbit stew. Rabbits were in plague proportions pretty much. My Dad says we wouldn’t survive another one because the government let myxomatosis and some other rabbit disease out into the population and there weren’t that many healthy ones left. Lots of sick ones though. Nasty.

Jacqueline wrote: "Many a family survived the Great Depression here in Australia with a staple diet of rabbit stew. Rabbits were in plague proportions pretty much. My Dad says we wouldn’t survive another one because ..."


I do wonder if the major difference is the type of weather (harsh, cold, etc). I mean, the Irish's main staple was the potato and they did well (until the famine, of course).

I am sad to hear about your rabbits. Why would the government kill them off??

The real question is why would the government kill them so ineffectually. There are some plausible reasons to limit the population of rabbits, but to just sicken the population is... foolish seems like an appropriate term. I mean, a large healthy population has to be better than a large unhealthy population.

They killed them off because they were overrunning the country. Eating everything and starving the native animals out. The climate was good for them. They came over on the First Fleet in 1788 and everything here was perfect for them and they bred like....well...rabbits. There is even a rabbit proof fence to try and stop them from getting into other parts of the country. Some seem to be developing an immunity to the viruses they gave them and I’ve been seeing a lot more healthy ones around lately. We have a few up at the farm. They seem to be getting back to plague proportions in some places. You can’t even have a pet rabbit in Queensland. It’s against the law. They’re classified as a pest. My daughter wanted a rabbit when she lived up there but ended up with a guinea pig instead.

I really wish the government would stop with this “let’s bring a virus in to kill them” or “oh dear we have a pest problem let’s bring in their predator” attitude. With the second one they had something in the sugar cane in Queensland so the powers that be brought in toads to eat them. Now the toads have overrun the countryside. Bloody cane toads. Poisonous nasty buggers that kill the wildlife that tries to eat them. And they’re advancing down the coast into the cooler areas. They’re just above where I’m living now. Haven’t seen any here yet thankfully. We’re encouraged to kill these toads if we see them. They do tell you humane ways to do it but most people don’t care.

There are also other bugs and diseases they’ve brought in to get rid of introduced plants and animals that have taken over that have themselves gone mad. Thankfully the rabbit viruses haven’t hurt done any harm except to the rabbits.

Other animals and plants have taken over as well. If we catch carp in our rivers it’s against the law to throw them back in. Most people leave them on the bank. Australians don’t like them as an eating fish and they’re considered an invasive species. They were put in the rivers way back and have taken over.

Also Indian Mina birds have the same deal. Won’t get into trouble if you kill them.

And there are heaps of plants that the first settlers tried to grow in their garden that took over in the perfect conditions. One is a form of Canterbury Bells that is now everywhere and we call Patterson’s Curse. Some call it Salvation Jane though. It kept growing even when the grass didn’t and kept the cattle alive. You know when the Patterson’s Curse is out. The milk tastes different. It does look pretty though. Massive paddocks that are a beautiful purple.

Blackberries got out and took over too. That I didn’t mind. A nice blackberry pie on a Sunday was a cheap easy dessert. But since it’s a noxious weed they spray any they find now and no more big yummy blackies along my fence anymore. Sucks.

They got the virus and got sick then took it to their burrow and died infecting the rest of them along with it. Mosquitos and fleas are the carriers. Myxomatosis is nasty. When the rabbits started getting immune to Myxo they brought in the Calicivirus in the 80s. The CSIRO link tells the story better than I can. The CSIRO are our Commonwealth/government science division.

And I was wrong about when they were introduced. It wasn’t on the first fleet but in the 1850s by some guy who wanted to use them for hunting.

The reason why we don’t let the rabbits stay all nice and healthy in large numbers is because they completely decimate the country. Not a blade of grass to be seen. When they are controlled the country returns to normal. A lot of Australia has minimal foliage for the local inhabitants anyway. With rabbits there is none at all. Also they eat the crops. We have enough trouble with kangaroos in plague proportions eating everything in sight without an introduced species doing the same.

Honestly it would be nice if the introduced foxes went after the bunnies instead of the lambs and the chickens. Another species that shouldn’t be here except for people wanting to hunt like they did back home.


https://csiropedia.csiro.au/myxomatos...