Aussie Readers discussion

It is so odd how the same thing that drives you up the wall in one book, does not bother you at all in another.

Deborah wrote: "It is so odd how the same thing that drives you up the wall in one book, does not bother you at all in another."

There's not actually heaps of dialogue in this one or it probably would get to me...

Andrea wrote: "Marianne wrote: "The Rain Heron by Robbie Arnott but I'm loving it so much I can actually forgive this irritating quirk, this time..."

LOL I was reading it over lunch, and knowing you were also reading it, I actually thought to myself “Marianne won’t be happy with this lack of punctuation”. Personally, it doesn’t bother me. I’m really loving it too, so far...."

LOL, that's funny that you thought of me. But not heaps of dialogue, and the prose is so beautiful!

Days Without End has no speech marks, perhaps fitting because the narrative is that of an uneducated Irishman. The sequel, A Thousand Moons is narrated by a young Indian girl, better educated, and she does use speech marks, so it's not a trend Sebastian Barry is following...

My favourite book of the last 30 years doesn't have speech marks but does have a hyphen at the beginning of every speech passage. Works quite well.

Just realised I've never rated it, which is odd. Must amend that.

Trainspotting

February by Lisa Moore

I was looking forward to this one because of some great reviews but I don’t know now....

“Normal People” by Sally Rooney.

Normal People by Sally Rooney. Thanks for the info Biff. I also see it is listed for lots of prizes and its reviews are all over the place!

Here's another one - reviewed by a friend and she's warned fellow readers. The Pull of the Stars by Emma Donoghue

The Pull of the Stars by Emma Donoghue

Really enjoyable book but this aspect was a bit annoying!

Oh no!! Well I won't be reading this one now - thanks for letting us know Kim!

Brenda wrote: "Oh no!! Well I won't be reading this one now - thanks for letting us know Kim!"

I can recommend the audiobook Brenda. It was terrific and you won't even notice the absence of speech marks!

Thanks Carolyn - no you wouldn't - just normal speaking :)

Last Days in Cleaver Square by Patrick McGrath

Still Life by Sarah Winman.

I was looking forward to this but am now a little irritated from page 1 :(

I thought the 'fad' might have lost its fascination by now Marianne!!

I am over war stories and I never did like missing speech marks so this one will be a miss for me.

Phrynne wrote: "I am over war stories and I never did like missing speech marks so this one will be a miss for me."

Actually very little war in this one, the main protagonists happen to meet during the war, the rest is set fifties onwards, quite like Anne Tyler or Kate Atkinson. Such a good story, I can just about forgive the lack of quote marks.
This might be a good one to do in audio, if you can wait until October.

Marianne wrote: "Phrynne wrote: "I am over war stories and I never did like missing speech marks so this one will be a miss for me."

Actually very little war in this one, the main protagonists happen to meet durin..."

That sounds much better:)

Pamela wrote: "In the book I am currently writing. I have some lengthy speeches. I have found when I read simial passages myself I sometimes get confused (speech marks or not) where the dialogue stats and finishe..."

When a new paragraph begins, it should have opening quote marks to show the character is still talking. The previous paragraph doesn't require closing quote marks.

Having just found this thread, I feel compelled to add my two-bob's worth. I think eschewing quotation marks is just elitist snobbery. It's like the writer is saying ‘I'm sooooo good I don't have to follow punctuation rules’. The first time I ever saw this was in a Tim Winton book. I'll never read another. Previously, I'd enjoyed some of his works on audio.
If authors don't like the ‘chicken scratch’ look of double quotes, they can always use single. I'm actually considering making that change in my current WIP.
I suppose an author has the right to do what they like with their books. What really annoys me is that these books so often win major awards. If I was on the judging panel I'd disqualify them!

I'm sure that's why they win awards Thomas - they think they're better than others, so does the panel!! I won't read them either ;)

Brenda wrote: "I'm sure that's why they win awards Thomas - they think they're better than others, so does the panel!! I won't read them either ;)"

I really hate that notion. 'Wow this book is so difficult to understand - it must be brilliant!' Nowadays award lists are 'steer clear' lists for me!

Me too Krystal!! I learnt that some time ago :)

Marianne wrote: "Still Life by Sarah Winman.

I was looking forward to this but am now a little irritated from page 1 :("

This was the first book I have ever picked up that didn't have speech marks. I was so looking forward to reading it but couldn't get any further than the first chapter before I dnf. Everything just seems to blur in together without the proper punctuation. Glad I'm not the only one irritated by this!

If I'd tried it back in school my work would have been thrown in the bin. What are these authors trying to prove?

It's laziness Alex!

I think Thomas is right about the snobbery too, a sort of arrogance: "I'm so good, you'll just have to read it this way, I can't be bothered with convention" (note that I used quote marks ;)

Why would you make your work harder to enjoy?

My current read: A Good Winter by Gigi Fenster is another.

It's a shame as Still Life was one I was keen to read, but not now!

Interesting thread and relevant to me as a writer. I wrote a novel and it has no speech marks, a la Tim Winton and many other prize winning writers. As my book was accepted by a US publisher and I am an emerging writer, I had to submit to house style and have them added, even worse, DOUBLE speech marks. Australia has leaned for a long time towards minimising 'punctuation pollution' so this decision was a big thing for me. It just looks ugly, and it also changes the tone of the dialogue.

Irish writers such as Roddy Doyle and Colm McCann use the -- mark to indicate dialogue. Either way, if it's clear someone is speaking it shouldn't matter, In fact, some people report not even noticing (as some have commented above), which is a compliment to the writer (and shows they have done it correctly - if not done right it's a disaster for the reader).

You will always have traditionalists who don't want anything different, and writers pushing limits are obviously not for them, but to simply label it as lazy, is in itself a lazy comment attempting no understanding of why this is done. Dialogue is character and changes to how dialogue is punctuated affects how you read it in your head. There are many ways of presenting things on a page. This issue touches on just one of them. Punctuation is a topic to really rile the hackles of many people...although my English teacher advised me with this publication that 'punctuation is not a mountain you want to die on - rejoice that you are being published'. Tell that to the authors like Gustav Flaubert who would agonise half a day about putting in a comma, then the rest of the day about taking it out...I'm no Flaubert, but punctuation decisions DO matter.

Deborah wrote: "Kerri_M wrote: "Aaaarrrggghhh! The book I am reading has excess quotation marks. Around stuff that isn't speach, it isn't even thoughts!

"James signalled to the maitre d' who led them to a small ..."
Wow. To me this is like the writer who puts in extra apostrophes into plurals because actually, they don't know where they go at all and they'd rather risk putting them in then leave them out. This narrator/writer is so arrogant they have to even put their stage directions as dialogue?? LOL The shock is the editors/publisher allowed it? (or should I say 'aloud it'??) ho ho

Alicia wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Kerri_M wrote: "Aaaarrrggghhh! The book I am reading has excess quotation marks. Around stuff that isn't speach, it isn't even thoughts!

"James signalled to the maitre d' who led ..."

It was probably self-published.
I have a quotation I coined: ‘The best thing about self-publishing is that anyone can write and publish a book—The worst thing about self-publishing is that anyone can write and publish a book’

Marianne wrote: "Still Life by Sarah Winman.

I was looking forward to this but am now a little irritated from page 1 :("

That's such a shame Marianne. I loved Still Life and it's sad that that is affecting your enjoyment of it. Although I don't see the point of not having them, I guess I'm lucky that I didn't notice the lack of speech marks and never had a problem not knowing who was speaking. It might work better as an audiobook for you if the narrators are good.

You're right there Thomas.

Alicia wrote: "Interesting thread and relevant to me as a writer. I wrote a novel and it has no speech marks, a la Tim Winton and many other prize winning writers. As my book was accepted by a US publisher and I ..."
I could tolerate no quotation marks if it didn't pull me out of the story continuously. Unfortunately, it always does.
What matters more—how ‘pretty’ your writing looks, or how well it grabs the reader?

The most important thing to me as a reader is to be engrossed in the words, the pages, until the end. As you say Thomas, the few I have read without punctuation pull me out of the story each and every time until there's no sense of a plot at all.

Usually I can read a book without quote marks if once you get in the flow it makes sense. But Still Life really annoyed me, I couldn’t get into it because of the lack of punctuation. It’s the first I can remember it really affecting my reading of a book. I can read Tim Winton easily, the books of his I haven’t liked have been for other reasons!

Thomas wrote: "Alicia wrote: "Interesting thread and relevant to me as a writer. I wrote a novel and it has no speech marks, a la Tim Winton and many other prize winning writers. As my book was accepted by a US p..."

One of the points I was trying to make was about tone and character representation. It's not all about 'looking pretty' at all, although when you get used to minimal punctuation all the extra commas etc do look like a bird ran across the page 4 times...but each to their own. You buy what appeals to you ultimately at all levels.

Alicia wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Alicia wrote: "Interesting thread and relevant to me as a writer. I wrote a novel and it has no speech marks, a la Tim Winton and many other prize winning writers. As my book was acc..."

That's very true.
Congratulations, by the way, on getting a deal on your book. I hope it does well for you. Keep us all posted.

I just gave up on by Marion Halligan after about ten minutes. Wistful, deep and meaningful, POIGNANT as the back cover would have it....

But the complete lack of quote marks meant I had no idea who and what was going on. Was someone speaking? Was this a conversation...? It did my head in and I have a headache now.

Lol! Exactly Deborah! Quotation marks came about as a method understood by everyone to indicate that someone was speaking. They have worked beautifully for a very long time - why change it?

Krystal wrote: "Brenda wrote: "I'm sure that's why they win awards Thomas - they think they're better than others, so does the panel!! I won't read them either ;)"

I really hate that notion. 'Wow this book is so ..."

Yep, too clever by halves wins an award. Not onboard with that idea.
It pains me to see The Fog Garden by Marion Halligan here. She was my English teacher in high school and was a brilliant teacher.

Diana wrote: "Krystal wrote: "Brenda wrote: "I'm sure that's why they win awards Thomas - they think they're better than others, so does the panel!! I won't read them either ;)"

I really hate that notion. 'Wow ..."

That's sad Diana - an English teacher should know the benefits of quotation marks!

Diana wrote: "Krystal wrote: "Brenda wrote: "I'm sure that's why they win awards Thomas - they think they're better than others, so does the panel!! I won't read them either ;)"

I really hate that notion. 'Wow ..."

I'm flabbergasted that a former English teacher would write a book without quotation marks. What's next—no question marks, because we should be able to see that it's a question? No full stops?
I sometimes enter writing contests; maybe I'll edit one of my stories to remove all punctuation marks and see how it goes. They might think I'm someone famous and give me an award. LOL.

Haha! Go for it Thomas!

Thomas wrote: "Diana wrote: "Krystal wrote: "Brenda wrote: "I'm sure that's why they win awards Thomas - they think they're better than others, so does the panel!! I won't read them either ;)"

I really hate that..."

The missing question marks is already a thing, too - Sarah J. Maas is the worst for it! Drives me nuts!

Phrynne wrote: "Lol! Exactly Deborah! Quotation marks came about as a method understood by everyone to indicate that someone was speaking. They have worked beautifully for a very long time - why change it?"
So SO true!

Thomas wrote: "Diana wrote: "Krystal wrote: "Brenda wrote: "I'm sure that's why they win awards Thomas - they think they're better than others, so does the panel!! I won't read them either ;)"

I really hate that..."

Go for it! You can prove our point for us nicely.

Diana wrote: "Krystal wrote: "Brenda wrote: "I'm sure that's why they win awards Thomas - they think they're better than others, so does the panel!! I won't read them either ;)"

I really hate that notion. 'Wow ..."

That is really sad! I got two books by her out of the library, trying to flesh out my ACT reading list for a challenge. Both books sounded really good. I suspect the stories are good, but I just am not able to metabolise them without punctuation.

Desperately trying to find books set in the ACT for my yearly challenge, the local library got me another book by Marion Halligan



Given the cover, lacking a capital letter on the first name, the absence of quote marks was a dreary confirmation rather than a surprise. I could not finish it and it was not just the absent quote marks. There was something really odd about the writing which I could not define.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...