SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Regardless of the story, has any villain ever been so charismatic that you feel you would join his/her army instead of fighting for the good guys?

I believe in the rule of law, so societies like the Empire in Star Wars would likely have had my support, up until they destroyed Alderaan.

In comics, I believe Magneto would have been quite compelling to follow, if I were born a mutant.

I doubt I wouldn't follow Jardir and the Krasian army in The Demon Cycle series. He's actively fighting to slay demons. How can you not get on board with that?

What other stories can you think of?

They're not really a villainous army but Robert Jordan's Aiel would be cool. Swords and face coverings and all. Assassins, desert people. Something really physical.

By the way, the 'charismatic' aspect. I'm more 'democratic' meaning a tribal approach, so the Army of the Dead, all things being equal. Tolkien. So again not pure villainy. I don't trust charismatic leaders. :)

First thing that came to mind was Jorg from Prince of Thorns... but then I thought about all his “friends” that he stabbed and yeah... maybe not.

I have a really hard time deciding what side I'd be on in Terra Ignota.

I think I'd join the OS faction. I just don't think I can be Utopian about it.

I guess unless I'd been the one to find Bridger...then I'm even less sure.

Star Wars is hard for me because I'm totally way more Sith than Jedi but also super not okay with space nazis? Like, small amounts of murder for the absolute well-being of others, okay. Vast amounts of just straight up choking someone out and then feeding their family to Sarlakks, let's maybe back up. Do we have a court system in this Empire? If not, I'm out like the guard rails in the design of every space ship.

I had this feeling once with the one-man-army of evil sheriff Lucas Buck in the short lived TV-series "American Gothic". He was without conscience, murdered, ruined peoples's lifes, and manipulated like hell. And I found myself rooting for him while constantly asking myself "how can you?!"

Phillip wrote: "Regardless of the story, has any villain ever been so charismatic that you feel you would join his/her army instead of fighting for the good guys?

I believe in the rule of law, so societies like t..."

This is the most well-reasoned argument in this vein I’ve seen. What did you do in the Army? JSOC HUMINT?

Me, I have issues with authority and I’m an extreme introvert. So, not a joiner. I am, in short, an outdoor cat. I guess I’d be more likely to join an organized crime association as an independent contractor.

So an information broker for the Kauls of Jade City.

A member of the loose association of wealthy Illuminati in the X-Men universe, the Hellfire Club.

The Men of Letters in Supernatural, except the evil side. (The good side if we’re flipping the question to “Good Armies.”) The MoL have a lot of autonomy, but get serious backup when needed.

Edit: after seeing the thread about the new Star Wars TV series The Mandalorian, I’d totally be a bounty hunter for the Empire.

One that isn’t going to get me killed.....

Trike wrote: "This is the most well-reasoned argument in this vein I’ve seen. What did you do in the Army? JSOC HUMINT?"

I'm an Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) officer. So, basically the complete opposite of everything you saw in that awful movie The Hurt Locker. "Still, the pay is good, and they let me work with explosives."

Sarah wrote: "First thing that came to mind was Jorg from Prince of Thorns... but then I thought about all his “friends” that he stabbed and yeah... maybe not."

Sarah, that sounds like my kind of book. Prince of Thorns is now on my to-read list. Thanks for the indirect recommendation.

Not sure. Does it have to be from a book

Thrawns empire from Star Wars. It was a book

Phillip adding anything by Mark Lawrence to your TBR is a great idea. He writes brilliant fantasy. His new series starting with Red Sister is brilliant. He’s releasing his first science fiction book next year.

Phillip wrote: "Sarah wrote: "First thing that came to mind was Jorg from Prince of Thorns... but then I thought about all his “friends” that he stabbed and yeah... maybe not."

Sarah, that sounds like my kind of ..."

Enjoy it! I loved that one. But Jorg is definitely not a guy you want to work for.

Jacqueline wrote: "Phillip adding anything by Mark Lawrence to your TBR is a great idea. He writes brilliant fantasy. His new series starting with Red Sister is brilliant. He’s releasing his first science fiction boo..."

Thanks. I'll have to peruse his wares.

Star Wars: I like Darth Vader a lot. What would the story be without him? But if I got a glimpse of the hierarchy he reports to, no, not them. The Jedi for me. They both use light sabers though and the fighting style (the best of it) is based on Samurai. Style of fighting is important! :)

M.L. wrote: "Star Wars: I like Darth Vader a lot. What would the story be without him? But if I got a glimpse of the hierarchy he reports to, no, not them. The Jedi for me. They both use light sabers though and..."

Thrawn was the best leader. He did not kill for the joy. He realized potential and nourished it

hm I forgot her name but in "The Girl with all the Gifts" is a scientist woman who wants to cure the story's zombie disease by uhhh dissecting children.....

I do not condone dissecting small humans but as the story unfolds and you see how bad the world has gotten without a cure I dont know if I couldnt be on the scientists side in that situation...

Jacqueline wrote: "Phillip adding anything by Mark Lawrence to your TBR is a great idea. He writes brilliant fantasy. His new series starting with Red Sister is brilliant. He’s releasing his first science fiction boo..."

Shh, Mark is a member of this group. If he hears you it’ll go straight to his hea— heyyy, hi Mark!

Ine wrote: "hm I forgot her name but in "The Girl with all the Gifts" is a scientist woman who wants to cure the story's zombie disease by uhhh dissecting children.....

I do not condone dissecting small human..."

So true. Desperate times, desperate measures. Pretty sure I couldn’t do it even then, though.

I mean, if I knew it was a baby Hitler or a baby Brett Kavanaugh, then yeah, hand me the scalpel, but otherwise....

Lol Trike 😂

He is a brilliant writer though.

Sarah wrote: "First thing that came to mind was Jorg from Prince of Thorns... but then I thought about all his “friends” that he stabbed and yeah... maybe not."

Thanks again for the recommendation. It took over a year, but I finally got around to reading about Jorg. Great to read from a distance, but no chance I work for him. In that universe, I would have followed the Prince of Arrows.

Jacqueline wrote: "Phillip adding anything by Mark Lawrence to your TBR is a great idea. He writes brilliant fantasy. His new series starting with Red Sister is brilliant. He’s releasing his first science fiction boo..."

True. I've now read Red Sister, Holy Sister, Grey Sister, Prince of Thorns, King of Thorns, and Emperor of Thorns.

I'm currently using my $1 KU subscription to read One Word Kill. If it stays as good as it began, I'll finish with Limited Wish and Dispel Illusion.

Glad you’ve been enjoying him Phillip! I still need to finish that series. It’s on my list for 2020.

Jacqueline wrote: "Phillip adding anything by Mark Lawrence to your TBR is a great idea. He writes brilliant fantasy. His new series starting with Red Sister is brilliant. He’s releasing his first science fiction boo..."

I must admit, I gave 'One Word Kill' a go and was quite impressed. I have now got 'Limited Wish' and will have to read it while I still remember the flow of the story (having the same problem with TV series nowadays, must be my age).

James wrote: "M.L. wrote: "Star Wars: I like Darth Vader a lot. What would the story be without him? But if I got a glimpse of the hierarchy he reports to, no, not them. The Jedi for me. They both use light sabe..."

Thrawn was more into Order, not the pure domination aspect of things

I would want to work for Gruu.
Does being a Minion count as being part of an Army?
For all the 'Despicable' things he does he is a pretty good boss. He knows all their names and even asks about their kids. I have worked for worse

There’s several charismatic leaders and stories I like. However, with some, mainly the Sith from Star Wars, or SPECTRE from the Bond stories, anyone under the leader is disposable, and the causes aren’t good. I’d have to go for following the Joker or Magneto. Their causes are somewhat better, and there’s less of a chance for getting killed for failure, and if you get killed, it’s more likely to be for disloyalty.

Allison wrote: "Star Wars is hard for me because I'm totally way more Sith than Jedi but also super not okay with space nazis? Like, small amounts of murder for the absolute well-being of others, okay. Vast amounts of just straight up choking someone out and then feeding their family to Sarlakks, let's maybe back up. Do we have a court system in this Empire? If not, I'm out like the guard rails in the design of every space ship. "


The Empire certainly made good points for order and security, and probably had an effective justice system. Especially when compared the the Old(or new) Republics style of every system having a voice, leading to nothing ever getting done and even emergencies being needlessly delayed(Episode I)
One of the Empires major flaws however is the fact that that security and justice was not applied equally, non-human species were generally treated as second class citizens at best, slaves(or killed) at worse.

As for villains, Does the Vampire Lestat count? Or to go back to Star Wars, Thrawn would be one I'd follow.

Tywin Lannister's troops seemed to have it pretty good

Told you Philip :) I’m waiting for my copy of Dispel Illusion to turn up. It’s released next Tuesday (New Year’s Eve) I believe.

His new trilogy is set in the same universe (but not the same people) as Red Sister and the first one, The Girl and the Stars, is being released in April or May. Can’t wait.

A Lannister always pays their debts...

Or maybe stay on Team Daenerys, she’s the Villain isn’t she?

Bruce wrote: "I’d have to go for following the Joker or Magneto. Their causes are somewhat better, and there’s less of a chance for getting killed for failure, and if you get killed, it’s more likely to be for disloyalty."

Depends on which version of Joker. Miller’s Joker killed minions just to test his chemicals. Nolan’s Joker killed them randomly and capriciously. In at least one Elseworlds comic Joker pretty much kills his allies and henchmen at random.

MadProfessah wrote: "A Lannister always pays their debts...

Or maybe stay on Team Daenerys, she’s the Villain isn’t she?"

Daenerys would work too but I don't see her as an original villain, just someone who became delusional over time

CBRetriever wrote: "MadProfessah wrote: "A Lannister always pays their debts...

Or maybe stay on Team Daenerys, she’s the Villain isn’t she?"

Daenerys would work too but I don't see her as an original villain, just ..."

I thought Game of Thrones too, but other then the White Walkers it has no true evil villain, just people who are not black and white, but shades of grey, much like real life each character has complexities, but I'm quite sure both Tywin and Daenerys saw themselves as the heros doing what was required

As always, please try not to spoil GoT or anything else in a thread that isn't clearly marked as having spoilers for that particular thing.

Phillip wrote: "Regardless of the story, has any villain ever been so charismatic that you feel you would join his/her army instead of fighting for the good guys?

I believe in the rule of law, so societies like t..."

Not full villain but more ambiguous: Shuos Jedao (Machineries of Empire series) and The Black Company. Monza Murcatto's/Nicomo Cosca's mercenary company (First Law world) was cool too. I love mercs. And of course Thrawn's a good option as well.