Women's Classic Literature Enthusiasts discussion

Discussion for "The Return of the Soldier". Please realize this is a spoiler thread.

Here are some reflections of World War 1 from the Royal archives. https://www.royal.uk/first-world-war-...

It does have some personal letters from members of the royal family describing the fight and conditions.

A couple more of what it was like and how the war still affects those today.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/a-cen...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwar...

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/201...

http://www.theatlantic.com/projects/w...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01n...

I've finally finished the novel. It definitely wasn't what I expected but it was quite powerful. I thought it was crafty of West to finish on a note reminiscent of the title.

This article about West and the novel is interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/books/boo...

Thanks for all the interesting links, Charlene.

A few questions:
- what did you think of the characters? Are they likeable? Do they need to be?
- what do you think of the debate at the end whether it would be better for Chris to know the truth or stay in his own world with no bad memories?

Thank you both so much for the article links! I really enjoyed the Royal archives and the Guardian article about West.

I think the characters are not likeable, but that makes them interesting so no, I don't think they need to be likeable. Kitty is easy to dislike because we get a simplified view of her. It takes longer to dislike Jenny. :-) And I had great sympathy for both Chris and Margaret.

As the Guardian article points out, Chris was certainly happier not knowing. Does this make it better? That's what you're left thinking about when the story ends. In violent and tragic situations like war, I suppose you never really know. The only thing better would be if it never happened.

Thinking about World War One (on the occasion of the centennial of the "Armistice" ) brought a couple of personal reminiscences to mind---one was of the veteran of that blood bath who lived up the street from my family,. He had been gassed by "les Boches" and was never the same after he returned home. The other memory was of how one of my spouse's Swedish-American uncles still had the tunic of his 'doughboys's' uniform, and the top button which had come loose. I sewed that button back on, and he donned the jacket that still fitted him well. I tried to visualize him as a young man who, like so many others, hoped it would be "the war to end war". That moment (in the Sixties) was one of the poignant moments of my life.
A couple of days ago, completely by chance, I happened upon a film on Netflix entitled Sunset Song. It turned out to be about the lives of people living and farming in a remote part of rural Scotland, in pre-World War One days. One of the principal characters, who had thought he would be exempted because he was working the land and producing foodstuffs, was conscripted, to his deep dismay. The war destroys him, first spiritually, and subsequently, actually. If you watch this film story, know that it is a tragic "slice of life" one, in one of the most sorrowful eras of history.

Mizzou wrote: "Thinking about World War One (on the occasion of the centennial of the "Armistice" ) brought a couple of personal reminiscences to mind---one was of the veteran of that blood bath who lived up the ..."

Those are poigmamt reminiscences.

Sunset Song is also a book if you're interested in reading it. It's very well-known in Scotland.

I thought the end was so sad for Chris himself. The women get him back, but now he is "cured", he'll have to go back to the trenches.

Different media, different war, but I can’t help thinking about the Julia Roberts show, Homecoming, e.g., the purpose of treating soldiers’ PTSD is to deploy them. Maybe it’s inevitable that those waiting for returning troops will find this outcome horrifying, and soldiers themselves see it as restoration of normalcy, in terms of what they had committed to do initially.

Camille wrote: "I've finally finished the novel. It definitely wasn't what I expected but it was quite powerful. I thought it was crafty of West to finish on a note reminiscent of the title.

This article about We..."

The Guardian article mentions that Chris and Kitty had an unhappy marriage. But I didn't catch that.

We know so little about Chris and Kitty's life. What we do know is from Jenny who viewpoint is skewed toward herself making Chris the happy home he enjoys more than Kitty does. Plus the death of Kitty's and Chris's child.

I really didn't find any of the characters likeable not even Margaret who I think we are suppose to have sympathy for. Kitty and Jenny were snobs (which I guess is the upper class downfall?).

Margaret had this all knowing attitude which can get annoying after awhile. That really didn't get along well with Kitty's personality.

Charlene wrote: "Camille wrote: "I've finally finished the novel. It definitely wasn't what I expected but it was quite powerful. I thought it was crafty of West to finish on a note reminiscent of the title.

This ..."

I didn't catch the unhappy marriage either. More the 10 years married with a child who passed. That would be terrible on anyone.

Somehow I felt Jenny was describing Chris as suffering from the child's death, but Kitty didn't seem overly bothered. I found this quite strange. Jenny is indeed skewed towards Chris.

I think the idea that Chris and Kitty weren't happily married comes in part from the comments Kitty makes at the beginning before Chris arrives. If I remember right, she seems much more concerned about herself than she is about Chris--excited about their life returning to normal more than excited to see a husband she loves.

Camille wrote: "Charlene wrote: "Camille wrote: "I've finally finished the novel. It definitely wasn't what I expected but it was quite powerful. I thought it was crafty of West to finish on a note reminiscent of ..."

but kitty goes into the (preserved) child's bedroom and cries at least once. I'm still not done, but recall reading this last night, and Jenny responding not one bit to Kitty's sadness. it's perhaps at the 65 - 70% mark. I think that a similar expression of grief happened early on, too, but I don't have the book in front of me to check.

Kathleen wrote: "I think the idea that Chris and Kitty weren't happily married comes in part from the comments Kitty makes at the beginning before Chris arrives. If I remember right, she seems much more concerned a..."

Just playing devil's advocate - does that mean that they weren't happily married? Isn't part of being happily married shared values and goals? Without knowing what Chris thought a marriage was about, Kitty's sense of happiness being getting back-to-normal rather than expressing missing him and true lurve doesn't tell us whether they were happy or unhappy together. I'm hesitant to say that someone who has waited at home for a spouse not certain to return shouldn't focus on normalcy, as opposed to enduring in a constant state of worry about a notification, indicates a lack of love. It must be unsettling/terrifying in alternating moments.

Question: what’s the significance of both Margaret and Chris having lost sons five years prior, each at the age of two? Margaret suggests that it’s as if each lived half a life. I don’t understand that at all, but I’m truly mystified at West’s choice to make each bear and lose a two-year old son, and that to similar illnesses. What are we to make of that?

Carol wrote: "Just playing devil's advocate - does that mean that they weren't happily married? Isn't part of being happily married shared values and goals?..."

I love how we can all pick up on different sides of this. :-)

We are getting the story from Jenny, a very unreliable narrator who has a thing for Chris so probably doesn't think highly of Kitty. I guess they could have been happily married, but the story is set up to show Kitty in a bad light, to show her shallow and unfeeling, isn't it? It's been a few months since I read it, but does anyone recall seeing any indication of them having a happy marriage in the story?

Kathleen wrote: "Carol wrote: "Just playing devil's advocate - does that mean that they weren't happily married? Isn't part of being happily married shared values and goals?..."

I love how we can all pick up on di..."

I don't remember really seeing any indication one way or another of whether or not it was a happy marriage. Could it be just our viewpoint over the past 100 years have changed as to what is a happy marriage? Jenny the narrator seems to really stress how much she works to make Chris a happy and comfortable home.

There's definitely something about Jenny with regards to Chris.

I think it was you, Charlen, who mentioned in the other thread that Jenny behaves as if she was the rightful wife. When he comes home, she is the one who spends the evening with him. Or when she goes with Margaret to the baby's room to get his favourite things as if she were the mother.

Kitty doesn't appear very understanding of Chris' issues, but I totally understand her. She's just discovered that great love affair her husband had (even if it was in the past, it can still be hurtful) and because of his amnesia her husband doesn't recognise her, let alone love her. It's heartbreaking! Her grief is munimised just like her grief at losing her child is.

I think the fact Chris and Margaret having sons draws a link between their lives even though they weren't together.

Charlene wrote: "Kathleen wrote: "Carol wrote: "Just playing devil's advocate - does that mean that they weren't happily married? Isn't part of being happily married shared values and goals?..."

I love how we can ..."

yes - you said what I meant - what is a "happy marriage" is framed by society, and we in 2018 may be focused on whether they are head-over-heel in love as an indicator. I'm not sure anyone in 1915 in their social class would have considered that factor either way.

Camille wrote: "There's definitely something about Jenny with regards to Chris.

I think it was you, Charlen, who mentioned in the other thread that Jenny behaves as if she was the rightful wife. When he comes hom..."

She also doesn't believe his amnesia is real or out of his control. It's as horrible as if she lived with someone bipolar and thought they were intentionally not sleeping and staying up for days on end. At the same time she's horribly wrong, I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to believe your husband is "not trying," especially after all the months of loneliness and suspended life. She's certainly a jerk, by my standards, but then we know he isn't faking it, and because we think she's horrid, the ending is especially awful.

I get that their loss of their sons gives them a shared grief, as group therapy for parents who've lost children would have. But pregnant at the same time, bearing sons at the same time and having them die in roughly the same way at the same time? That seems over the top and no doubt, the foundation for many a dissertation.

Here's an interesting article I found entitled, "Involuntary Cure," on West's ableism and Return of the Soldier. I confess I was confused about why Chris needed to be "cured" at the end of the novel since he wasn't confused about reality (in terms of what year it was, that he'd been serving in the War, his marriage to Kitty) at that point.

http://dsq-sds.org/article/view/3468/...

...One odd thing about the beginning of this passage [on pages 87-88] is that Chris does "know the truth"—that is, he now understands that there is a gap in his memory; he knows the actual date and the actual situation—that he has married Kitty and been to the war and that fifteen years have passed since he courted Margaret. He simply cannot remember the events of those fifteen years. But the passage insists that it is knowledge of the truth Chris is lacking so as to spiritualize his disability, or, to be more accurate, to unspiritualize it. By comparing the truth to wine as opposed to milk, Jenny's discourse infantilizes Chris; by asserting that he is excluded from "communion" she is removing him from the realm of the spiritual. Worse, the passage assumes not only that Chris cannot be dignified in his altered mental state but that God himself would feel contempt for someone with a psychiatric disability. The metaphor of "walk[ing] forever queer and small like a dwarf" translates Chris's memory loss into a physical disability that Jenny can similarly disdain. This prejudice against the "queer…dwarf" brings together sexism, sanism, and more general ableism in an image of unmasculine inferiority.

Very interesting article, Carol.

We need to keep in mind that mental illness at the time of the novel wasn't recognised and accepted as it is now. I think in that case it also mixes with the class issue and keeping appearances. "Curing" Chris becomes a must.

I came across this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gziw...

Thanks so much for that, Charlene! How pretty, and great details into how and why things changed.