Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

Our December discussion will be There There by Tommy Orange. If you would like to lead the discussion, please let me know. Thanks,

The WaPost selected the best books of the year (only 10 books) and There There was on it! Good job, Tommy Orange!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphi...

Tommy Orange wrote a piece on what Thanksgiving means to the Native American in the Washington Post Book World section. Unfortunately I can not post the link because the Post has blocked my ip address after too many monthly perusals.

here you go: https://www.washingtonpost.com/entert...

Thanks William, this was an excellent read. I read There There earlier this year and loved it. I won't be rereading it but I will follow the discussion.

I read There There just recently and I look forward to the discussion!

The New York Times Book Review has chosen There There as one of the ten best books of the year. Well. What are you waiting on?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/29/bo...

December 1st and the discussion starts today.

Have you read the book or currently reading it? Waiting on library copy? I read a library copy several months ago and now need to get a copy for the discussion. For now we can discuss the prologue which was unlike any prologue I read previously. Any thoughts?

Also, if someone has a copy and can tell me how the book is divided(chapters, parts, sections etc...) I can set up a discussion schedule.

I read There There several months and was quite taken with the book. I will have to find my notes for this wonderful book.

I was quite taken with the Prologue!
It was well-written and definitely one of the best prologues that I have read. I remember that I was quite excited about and thought the voice was strong and powerful and definitely left an impact.

I like it so much I read it again after finishing the book.

Beverly wrote: "I read There There several months and was quite taken with the book. I will have to find my notes for this wonderful book.

I was quite taken with the Prologue!
It was well-written and definitely o..."

Powerful is certainly the operative word there, Beverly. I didn’t quite know what to make of it myself. Some found it quite provocative and questioned the placement of it in a prologue. On the contrary, I found it clever, inventive and ingenious and forced me to immediately probe further into some of the things he brought up.

Thanks so much, Sunita! I was gonna make a trip to the library in this all-day torrential downpour in Atlanta to pick up the book for that. I can wait til Monday now.

I just re-read the prologue again from the sample on Apple ebooks. It’s divided into three parts:
-Indian Head
-Massacre as Prologue
-Urbanity

Indian Head:
Raise your hand if you’re old enough to remember the Indian Head Test Pattern advertised on tv until the late 70’s?

“If you left the tv on....you’d see the Indian, surrounded by circles that looked like sights through riflescopes. There was what looked like a bulls-eye in the middle of the screen, with numbers like coordinates. The Indian’s head was just above the bulls-eye, like all you needed to do was nod up in agreement to set the sights on the target. This was just a test.” and this,

Our heads are on flags, jerseys, and coins. Our heads were on the penny first, of course, the Indian cent, and then on the buffalo nickel, both before we could even vote as a people — which, like the truth of what happened in history all over the world, and like all that spilled blood from slaughter, are now out of circulation.

Massacre as Prologue:

Happy Thanksgiving!
"They took everything and ground it down to dust as fine as gunpowder, they fired their guns into the air in victory and the strays flew out into the nothingness of histories written wrong and meant to be forgotten. Stray bullets and consequences are landing on our unsuspecting bodies even now."

Urbanity

Don’t recall hearing the term Urban Indian before “There There.”

“An Urban Indian belongs to the city, and cities belong to the earth. Everything here is formed in relation to every other living and nonliving thing from the earth.”

“know the downtown Oakland skyline better than…any sacred mountain range…the sound of the freeway better than we do rivers.”

I’m gonna love re-reading parts of this book. I may go out in the rain after all!

My library copy's due Dec 4, so I started reading on Thanksgiving weekend, & wow was that perfect timing for that Prologue! Impressive start to the book. (Impressive book as a whole too. I finished it quickly.)

Discussion schedule:

Prologue * Dec 1st-4th
Remain * Dec 5th-10th
Reclaim * Dec 11th-16th
Return * Dec 17th-22nd
Powwoww and entire book open Dec 23rd

Beverly wrote: "I read There There several months and was quite taken with the book. I will have to find my notes for this wonderful book.

I was quite taken with the Prologue!
It was well-written and definitely o..."

I just read the prologue and I completely agree. Wow! I especially appreciate Orange's discussion of urban Indians and his perspective on what makes an Indian. As someone who works deep in the heart of the Yakama Nation, it's super interesting to hear a voice that speaks to the issue of defining what qualifies as "Native enough." Even in small towns on the reservation where the vast majority of people are Native, I notice divides among Indians based on how "Native" people are (e.g., whether they go to longhouse or a Christian church, whether or not they powwow, whether or not they participate in traditional activities like fishing, hunting, and gathering). Part of me thinks that divisions such as these just further weaken Native communities, but another part of me wonders if the acculturation that seems to accompany urban life is what weakens Native communities. Is Orange right? Does "the land [move] with you like memory"? Has "being Indian... never been about returning to the land"?

Either way, I'm super excited about reading this book and look forward to our discussions!

I also thought the Prologue was excellent. When I was teaching elementary school music, I used to send out this article, Why I'm Not Thankful for Thanksgiving by Michael Dorris, every fall and every fall the Kindergartners would still dress up and host a Thanksgiving meal. I cannot find an original date for the article as it was written for a school publication, but I believe it was in the 80's. I found the Prologue an excellent reminder right before Thanksgiving.
I loved the book and look forward to discussing it with everyone.

I loved the Prologue and keep looking for the themes brought up in the prologue to be echoed throughout the novel. Haven't gotten far in the novel yet, but am working on it.

Karen Michele wrote: "I also thought the Prologue was excellent. When I was teaching elementary school music, I used to send out this article, Why I'm Not Thankful for Thanksgiving by Michael Dorris, every..."

I'm replying to myself because I forgot to finish my thoughts;)

The fact that two Native authors (and other authors of color) can write about these same issues almost 50 years apart and the current political climate of the country have accentuated to me how naive I have been to think some problems have been improved upon or even solved.

Our discussion of the first section Remain begins today. Has anyone read this section and have views on it? What do you think of Tommy Orange prose in these first couple of chapters?

Also, what other Native American writers have you read? I forgot to mention that in our early talk on the book. Erdrich and Alexie come immediately to mind but there are certainly others. Who would you recommend? Has anyone read Silko before?

I just finished listening to this, and all I can say at the moment about this book is wow! And I liked the emphasis on storytelling and the stark, horrifying nonfiction start to the book.

Columbus wrote: "Also, what other Native American writers have you read? I forgot to mention that in our early talk on the book. Erdrich and Alexie come immediately to mind but there are certainly others. Who would you recommend? Has anyone read Silko before?.."

Not Native American but Native Canadian (Indigenous), these were fantastic reads:

The Break by Métis Katherena Vermette

Split Tooth by throat singer Tanya Tagaq (if you can get it in audio, it is read by the author and interspersed with her throat singing.) Truly haunting.

Medicine Walk by the late Richard Wagamese

Nobody Cries at Bingo by comedienne Dawn Dumont (a female, Canadian, version of The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian, funny account of growing up on a reserve).

Monkey Beach by the award-winning Haisla and Heiltsuk writer Eden Robinson

Green Grass, Running Water by American/Canadian Thomas King

The fabulous graphic novel The Outside Circle: A Graphic Novel

Louise wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Also, what other Native American writers have you read? I forgot to mention that in our early talk on the book. Erdrich and Alexie come immediately to mind but there are certainly ..."

Oh man. Thanks, Louise. I’m about to check out some of these now. Wagamese is the only one I’m vaguely familiar with and not sure why him or what for. But the name sounds familiar.

Columbus wrote: "Wagamese is the only one I’m vaguely familiar with and not sure why him or what for. But the name sounds familiar.."

Perhaps for Indian Horse? But I liked Medicine Walk better. One Native Life is very good too. It's a book of ruminating vignettes.

Catherine wrote: "I loved the Prologue and keep looking for the themes brought up in the prologue to be echoed throughout the novel. Haven't gotten far in the novel yet, but am working on it."

I listened to it in audio and told myself that I will need to re-read it, slowly, while taking notes. There is lots to find in there if you go looking.

From notes....

REMAIN

Toney Loneman - Fetal Alcohol Syndrome; deals drugs; mother currently in prison; meets Octavio with plans to hold up the Powwow.

Dene Oxendene - High schooler Dene applying for a grant to document other Native Americans telling their personal story. Not the stereotypes that often is perpetuated to the public. He wants to inherit this work from his uncle Lucas who has a terminal illness.

Opal Viola Victoria Bear Shield - Opal and her half sister Jacquie lives with their mom. They have different fathers. They move from place to place until eventually ending in Alcatraz (alcatraz has housing). Mother dies. Jacquie is pregnant.

Edwin Black - Obese, half-white, half-Native American. Finds his real date online through Facebook research. Father is Cheyenne Indian. Jobless but has masters degree in Comparative Literature. Mother gives him a job as an intern at the Powwow.

I found that 3rd chapter (about Opal Viola's childhood, including her family's time at Alcatraz during the occupation by Indians of All Tribes) very powerful. The conversation with the teddy bear! :-O

The use of the teddy bear was great! I loved the contrast of its words with the feelings a teddy bear evokes.

Were you aware that Alcatraz had housing?

I found this so interesting for some reason:

After the prison stood dormant for six years, Native American activists occupied Alcatraz.
Following two previous brief occupations, a group of nearly 100 Native American activists, led by Mohawk Richard Oakes, took over the island in November 1969. Citing an 1868 treaty that granted unoccupied federal land to Native Americans, the protestors demanded the deed to Alcatraz in order to establish a university and cultural center. Their proclamation included an offer to purchase the island for “$24 in glass beads and red cloth”—the same price reportedly paid by Dutch settlers for Manhattan in 1626. Federal marshals removed the last of the protestors in June 1971, but some of their graffiti remains. When the National Park Service recently rebuilt an Alcatraz water tower, it made sure to repaint the red graffiti that read “Peace and Freedom. Welcome. Home of the Free Indian Land.”

Well, they occupied Alcatraz not had traditional housing. There wasn’t a lease or anything. Haha.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occup...

also, Canadian authors Sky Lee
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...
and
Lee Maracle
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lee+maracle...

This novel is particularly exciting for its appearance in mainstream media reviews. I also really love its contemporary language and characters. It will help to bring the recognition of Natives ("only whites use the term Native Americans" - I'm paraphrashing) into the present so that non-Natives do not see them only in terms of the past stereotypes.

I can't remember which character it was, but I think Edwin Black (?) mentioned liking A Tribe Called Red. Here's one of their YouTubes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAEmj...

Also, I recently read James Michener's novel Centennial - about the history of the town of Centennial, Colorado - and he mentions how in the late 1800s or early 1900s the many tribes from the western states gathered annually in Oakland for a huge powwow. I don't have the book handy to verify the dates, and I can't seem to find any information about the history of the Oakland powwow online (but then, that's not surprising if you consider how the First Nations people have been ignored and disappeared by everyone else all along).

RECLAIM

Bill Davis - older Vet, did 5 years in prison (San Quentin)for a stabbing, works at the Coliseum in maintenance.

Calvin Johnson - works at the Coliseum. Bipolar. Brother to Maggie and Charles. Owes money to Octavio who plans to rob the Powwow.

Jacquie Red Feather - Opal’s half sister; has a daughter (Jamie) with Harvey who she happens to see at the conference she attends.

Orvil Red Feather - Jamie’s son and Jacquie’s grandson. He lives with his great-aunt Opal. Has two other brothers. His mom shot herself in the head when he was 6.

It seems to me that Dene Oxyndene's project is very similar to what we are actually reading - people's stories about what it's like to be Indian in Oakland.

Also, thanks Columbus for listing the names of the characters in each section, it's very helpful. I have flipped back and forth several times trying to remember names, and connections between characters.

I still don't understand the business with the spider legs.

I googled the spider legs after finishing the book. It's something that happened to the author! :-O

Joelle wrote: "I googled the spider legs after finishing the book. It's something that happened to the author! :-O"

Yes it's true! He mentions it in an interview, but he has no explanation for it. His father told him he was "witched." There's actually a picture of the spider leg in the article:
https://www.kqed.org/arts/13835114/to...

I like Orange's vision of the spider web and how it vibrates throughout with each event that happens to it.

Joelle wrote: "I found that 3rd chapter (about Opal Viola's childhood, including her family's time at Alcatraz during the occupation by Indians of All Tribes) very powerful. The conversation with the teddy bear! :-O"

I agree. I just finished part one and Opal is my favorite character yet. Her life is the most dysfunctional out of all of the characters yet she is the most level headed and sure of her place in the world. She is eleven years old and having conversations with herself (Two Shoes) about Roosevelt and the deeper meaning behind casual stories/names we use today. Already knowing, at such a young age, that her story is important and needs to be told.

Columbus wrote: "Our discussion of the first section Remain begins today. Has anyone read this section and have views on it? What do you think of Tommy Orange prose in these first couple of chapters?

Also, what ot..."

This also saw the publication of Where the Dead Sit Talking by Brandon Hobson.

Brandon Hobson on Recovering Cherokee Myths from His Grandfather’s Notebook
"This notebook has become my passion. Discovering it has changed my life."

https://lithub.com/brandon-hobson-on-...

Wow!

There There is the 2018 Center For Fiction First Novel Prize winner

http://www.centerforfiction.org/award...

Wow, indeed! There were some pretty good books on the long list. Great news for Tommy Orange!

Lata wrote: "Wow, indeed! There were some pretty good books on the long list. Great news for Tommy Orange!"

There were about six or seven on the list that you could see winning it all. So for Orange to win it is great. I’m looking forward to his sophomore effort.

Janice (JG) wrote: "It seems to me that Dene Oxyndene's project is very similar to what we are actually reading - people's stories about what it's like to be Indian in Oakland.

Also, thanks Columbus for listing the n..."

Janice this is such a cool idea. I want to think about it. I kept asking myself why some sections are in 1st person and others in 3rd and whether it was just the way these voices came to the author or if there was a meaning to the difference. So now I'm wondering if it makes sense to think of the 3rd person sections as embodied if fictional characters who are embedded in the main story, and the 1st person sections are people recorded by Dene Oxyndene.

Anyone following this discussion live in Oakland or have lived there in the past? I visited Oakland by taking the BART from San Francisco to the Coliseum in 2000. The train arrives at the doorstop basically to the ballpark. I saw nothing else of Oakland. Wish I had toured....I’m just wondering how a gentrified Oakland plays out to Orange’s novel.

The first chapter was really compelling for me. The description of Tony Loneman with fetal alcohol syndrome or the “drome” as Tony renamed it. Also, the 3-d printed plastic guns was really fascinating to me. I spent an extra 90 minutes of my reading time just researching that alone. Scary!

Columbus wrote: "Anyone following this discussion live in Oakland or have lived there in the past? I visited Oakland by taking the BART from San Francisco to the Coliseum in 2000. The train arrives at the doorstop ..."

I've lived and worked in Oakland. Some of the specifics were off for me and I wondered why Orange made those choices but usually it seemed in the interest of greater clarity for people not from the area. For instance no one would call BART a "train" or a BART station "train station" but honestly anyone not from here would probably do that.

One choice that was jarring for this local, though: Fruitvale Station is where Oscar Grant III was shot in the back by a police officer in 2009. It was the Ferguson of its day. The words "Fruitvale Station" still evokes his death for some locals.

So I would have appreciated just a sentence about him in the text when Dene Oxendene shows up at Fruitvale Station in Chapter 2. A random thought in Dene Oxendene's head about that death would have grounded this book for me in "real Oakland" and I don't think it would have been obtrusive given that Dene Oxendene is a thoughtful person, interested in his world.

Lark wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Anyone following this discussion live in Oakland or have lived there in the past? I visited Oakland by taking the BART from San Francisco to the Coliseum in 2000. The train arrives..."

Oh, really. Thanks, Lark.

That’s interesting about the “train” and “train stain” terms. I thought that was the universal term for it or at least here in the US. I know Londoners refer to their subway as the “tube”... I know locally here in metro Atlanta we frequently refer to the subway station as train and so do my nephews in NYC. Maybe that’s unique to the bay area, maybe?

Also, I immediately thought of Oscar Grant when I ran across it in the book. Of course, like most others, I had never heard of the station prior to that senseless shooting. Why would I? The shooting occurred in ‘09 but is the book set prior to this date or is it current day? Or is the omission strictly calculated by the author to make the period questionable. Honestly, and I don’t know why at this moment, but I was glad Oscar Grant’s name was not brought up in the book. I thought that even while reading it.

I’ve heard different viewpoints on how the female characters are portrayed in this book? Any thoughts on this?

Columbus wrote: "Maybe that’s unique to the bay area, maybe? ..."

I think it is different here, because we also have a train service and some towns have both a BART station and a train station.

It felt to me like the novel is in current times because of the plastic gun technology. I didn't really fault Tommy Orange for not including a reference to Oscar Grant, but I thought about it, as in, why did Orange choose to -not- make a direct reference to Oscar Grant? Did he assume readers would make the reference themselves? Or is he making a comment about how soon we forget tragedy? Or does it say something about Dene Oxendene's character, that he doesn't think about Oscar Grant?...Or it just isn't relevant to the story he wants to tell? I had all these out-of-text thoughts about this single choice Tommy Orange made, as I read that chapter.

Orange could have chosen a different BART station and avoided the problem--San Leandro for instance would have done the job--but he didn't, so I started to wonder why.

Columbus wrote: "I’ve heard different viewpoints on how the female characters are portrayed in this book? Any thoughts on this?"

I read it too long ago now to remember characters names, but I do remember thinking that he did a great job portraying women - especially older women.

I thought the women were well drawn.

I thought he did a fabulous job with so many different characters and making them all unique. You might see them one way, then later on he shows you that character's vulnerabilities and you see them in another way. I think we would be far less judgmental as a whole in society if we knew each person's vulnerabilities.

Opal's chapters were my favorite parts of the novel.