Support for Indie Authors discussion

I am currently editing a fantasy novel and I'm struggling with a chunk in the middle that is heavily grounded in dialogue. The intent of these sections is character building and relationship development, so while there is not much action I want to flesh out the dialogue between characters so that readers learn more about individual characters as well as lore of the land.

I'm having trouble with some of these sections. I'm trying to make the dialogue fluid, not forcing world building, while making these sections engaging and intriguing.

Any tips or tricks people have discovered to help with the dialogue writing process? Any feedback would be helpful!

I am fairly dialogue heavy in my writing, and I try to keep a good variety of tags, etc. while writing it. So, with the emphasis on the need for varying dialogue tags being announced...

Action tags and moments of setting description are useful. So, for me... I write a close point of view, and what is heard, smelled, or seen will sometimes play a part in what's talked or thought about. So, I try to break it up a little with things like that. Also, what they're doing, how they're doing it, and facial expressions.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious? I don't know. These are all things I learned years into writing (maybe I'm a slow learner), so I try not to assume anything about what someone may or may not know.

One of the biggest things for me, though, really was the realization that he said and she said (for example) can really be something like, "he seated himself" or another relevant action.

I tend to read dialogue over and over to make sure the character voices are consistent, the dialogue is natural sounding, and interesting. I also interject every few lines to let the reader know any actions the characters are doing (even if it's scratching their nose or peeling a potato) so it doesn't begin to feel like you have two bodyless heads floating about. I make note of things going on around them here and there to keep from feeling as if they're standing in the middle of an empty space.

If you feel comfortable, post a little of the dialogue you're working on. It would help us to identify any areas that work and any areas that need work.

In the earlier drafts of my books my dialogue quite often starts out as the "bodyless heads" that Dwayne mentioned, as at this stage I am focused on getting the details of the conversation down and I end up confusing myself if I try to add lots of details too early on! I think with dialogue it can be a case of building things up in layers, as it can be hard to think about everything all at once.

Once I'm reasonably happy that the plot is on the right lines and the dialogue is "correct" (in as much as it furthers the plot in the way I want it to), I start to work on making the dialogue a bit richer. Sometimes it might be possible to keep roughly the same conversation but move it to a different setting or environment, or to combine the conversation with other action or other scenes in the book. This then allows the scene to have multiple purposes and become more interesting to read. You might find there are places where some extra details and background fit in really nicely with the flow of the dialogue, and other places where you don't want anything to slow down the conversation. Not all of my characters' conversations take place in wildly interesting settings though, sometimes it is a case of two people sitting in a cafe with not too much else going on, and I think that can be okay.

I've certainly found that the more I write the more I get a feel for this kind of thing, so just trying things out and seeing how it sounds is a good way forward.

The reason they are in a particular physical location can drive the dialogue. Why are they there? Even if they are taking a breather, then a breather from what, and where are they going next, or what are they doing next. If they are lost, the relationship can be shown through how they go about finding their way out of a described location.

Thank you everyone who has replied! I especially found the idea about avoiding 'floating heads' and viewing the dialogue as layers in the story was helpful in how to move forward in editing. The difficulty with close line editing is that you in one respect have to pay close attention to the scene at hand while also considering the story at large, it can be quite overwhelming!

Dwayne wrote: "I tend to read dialogue over and over to make sure the character voices are consistent, the dialogue is natural sounding, and interesting. I also interject every few lines to let the reader know an..."

Dwayne suggested adding a bit of dialogue for feedback, below is a pretty early section between the two main characters, a lot of back and forth with minimal tags, which I want to do to an extent but I also don't want them to turn into those floating heads! Of course, not knowing any of the surrounding context, it can be difficult to discern. Tried to format it as best I could!

“If it isn’t my near savior.”

He stared at the slave girl, the one he had left behind. Then her smile widened and he refused to bear her derision.

“How did you find me?” He demanded as he stood.

“The boy’s dead.”

“How?”

She dropped to the ground and straightened, patting her hands free of sand.

“That is sad.”

“Answer me.”

“He saved me.” She matched his height and when her eyes lifted she met his with a snap. She was all bones and a sharp personality. He did not like her. “He’s much nicer.”

“Who?” He growled.

She continued to smile and he nearly threw the water skin straight against her teeth.

“Red.”

“Who?”

“The other one.” She explained. “The cursed one.”

The crazy slave. The one who claimed that he would save Kath.

“Why?”

“He has an… agenda.” Kathka groaned at her pause. She knew as little as he.

“How did you find me?” He asked again.

“I followed you.”

“How?” Her answers were vexing.

“I’m cursed.” Which was no explanation. She touched her fingers against the protruding marks along her exposed collar bone. “We’re both cursed.”

“Great.” He collapsed back against the rock, focus returning to the solace of the desert though it did not calm him.

“Pashka and Rain will be here soon.” Nana said.

“I know.” He spoke curtly. He wanted her to leave.

“You’re not a very nice person.”

“Did you think I would be?”

“After you left me behind?” She sat and mirrored his position with legs splayed into the sand. Her feet were bare, skirt loose about twiggy legs. “No.”

Just off the top, it needs narrative to connect everything. And tags because it's not always clear who is talking.

I like it :) It's pretty clear how the characters feel about each other, I like the little details like She dropped to the ground and straightened, patting her hands free of sand., and it's an interesting conversation.

I agree it needs a few more tags and maybe a bit more explanation in places just to tie it all together and make it flow nicely.

Just a small point, I usually try to steer clear of statements like "he growled", because I can't imagine that he literally growled the words. I completely understand what you mean, but I would personally say something like: “Who?” he asked, his voice almost a growl as his irritation with her grew.

I got a little bit confused because at times it seemed like we were seeing the conversation from the man's perspective e.g. He stared at the slave girl, the one he had left behind. Then her smile widened and he refused to bear her derision.
Then later it seems like we are seeing the girl's perspective “I’m cursed.” Which was no explanation. She touched her fingers against the protruding marks along her exposed collar bone.
I might just be getting confused because it's just a small extract and I haven't read what's before and after, though.

Hope that helps :)

L.K. wrote: "I like it :) It's pretty clear how the characters feel about each other, I like the little details like She dropped to the ground and straightened, patting her hands free of sand., and it's an inte..."

Thank you for taking the time to look it over! You're right about the growling part, I wasn't the biggest fan of that tag but I like the idea behind it, your suggestion is helpful to how to keep the idea while making the prose stronger

Thanks M.L. and L.K. for pointing out that there probably needs to be some more tags, looking objectively at my writing I tend to cut down on tags but even when I had someone read through my rough draft one of their comments was that they got lost in who was talking at some points. I'll have to be on the lookout for that...

Question: Creating pace in dialogue. I think one of the reasons I cut back on tags is often because I want the pace of the dialogue to be quicker and it seems most natural to cut down on extra words outside of dialogue to do that. Any suggestions on how to control pacing in dialogue while keeping the speaker tags clear?

I think dialogue can be fast paced and still have some words around the dialogue, such as tags or bits of action. In fact it's probably essential, because if the reader becomes confused about what is going on it will slow things down for them.

I've put in an extract of some fairly intense fast-paced dialogue from one of my books as an example of some things I do - I'm not saying my way of doing things is perfect or that everyone should do it like this, and I guess I have my own style, but it might have some ideas in that you find useful.

Extract:

She started to cry properly and he touched her arm but she shook him away.
‘No,’ she said, ‘no. I don’t care. Just… just leave me alone.’
‘I’m not going to leave you alone.’
‘Why wouldn’t you want her, after all? I get it. She’s glamorous and exciting. And I’m certainly not, am I?’
‘You really think… Sadie, don’t be ridiculous―’
‘So now I’m ridiculous too?’ She slammed her hand on the table. ‘Why does it always have to be about your feelings? Why do you make me feel bad just for wanting you to pay attention to me?’
‘All right,’ he said, ‘all right. Will you listen?’
‘I don’t want to hear excuses.’
‘I don’t need to make excuses. I haven’t done anything wrong―’
‘You haven’t done anything wrong?’ she exploded. ‘You―’
‘Stop,’ he said, ‘stop. Please listen. Obviously I have done things wrong, but… it’s not as bad as you think.

So, I've got some "she said", "he said". I have quite a strong habit of putting these in the middle of a piece of dialogue but they can go after, or before e.g.
She thought their conversation was over, until he said, 'I want you to leave.'
It can be nice to vary things a bit in terms of where the tags go, and I like to sometimes add things like "he snapped", "she cried", "he whispered" from time to time - as long as it's not overdone.

In one place in my example the male speaker says the name of the woman he is talking to, "Sadie", which is kind of like a tag because it's obvious he is the one speaking. I do this a fair bit, although I try not to go over the top because if you are trying to make speech sound realistic people don't usually continuously call each other by name while they are talking, especially if there are only two people in the room! It can be a handy alternative to a tag sometimes though.

I have places where there are no tags, but it doesn't normally go on too long without them to prevent confusion, and there are little bits of action like Sadie slamming her hand on the table to show her emotion.

L.K. wrote: "...“Who?” he asked, his voice almost a growl as his irritation with her grew...."

I actually disagree on this point, but of course it's all a matter of taste.

IMO, the tag "he growled" is clearly understandable to anyone who's ever seen a Batman movie (or any gritty drama, or video game, or whatever). Whereas "almost a growl" is indecisive -- was it a growl or not? and if it was, then why not just say he growled? Then adding the extra "as his irritation with her grew," to me, is redundant and too much exposition. Growling at someone already shows you're irritated, you don't have to go on and qualify that.

Micah wrote: "L.K. wrote: "...“Who?” he asked, his voice almost a growl as his irritation with her grew...."

I actually disagree on this point, but of course it's all a matter of taste.

IMO, the tag "he growl..."

That brings up the old "he/she said only" versus "using tags that don't literally include speech." I personally like flair in the dialogue tags, but there is a significant group of readers who just want to read said/asked/shouted, and never growled/purred/laughed.

Hi Lydia,

About the dialogue tags, you can add a few and leave many off and still keep the pace by increasing the tension.

"If it isn't my near savior," she said, smiling, taunting him. A starving slave girl with no chance of escape.

"How did you find me?" he said, gripping the water skin, ready to strike her across the face.

"I followed you, how else?"

"I left no trail." He stepped closer, his voice low. "Only a witch would know where I passed."


I don't know the story well enough to add more, but that's sort of the idea.

Phillip wrote: "...there is a significant group of readers who just want to read said/asked/shouted, and never growled/purred/laughed. ..."

True enough, and I do try to limit the variations a lot in my own work. Overusing these kinds of tags makes it look like you're trying too hard for variation and can seem amateur. On the other hand, using too many he said/she said can make dialog blunt and boring.

In the example given you could always opt for something like:

“Who?” he asked with growing irritation.

I'd also suppose it depends a lot on the tone and nature of the book. If you're writing high fantasy with a lot of formal language, then more florid tags might be warranted. Whereas, if you're writing a social drama set in modern times using common vernacular, you might want to tone them down a lot or dispense with them entirely.

Hi Lydia,

Overall, I'd say it's a little tough to follow this conversation as I can't always tell which character is speaking. They both seem to speak in short, choppy, often one word sentences. That's fine if that's how they speak, but it means you have to give us a little more to go on to tell who is speaking. I know it is often said that when you only two characters speaking, you don't have to tag who is speaking very often. In this case, it would help, as both characters seem to speak with a similar voice.

Lines like “How did you find me?” He demanded as he stood. should be written as one sentence: "How did you find me?" he demanded as he stood.

I think the biggest issue I'm having is the stiffness of the whole thing. I'm fine with characters that speak in stiff, nearly monosyllabic sentences, but try to counter that with a narrative that flows a little freer. Maybe something like: With narrowed eyes, he stared at this filthy creature, this pathetic slave girl he'd been convinced had been left in his past. He'd dared dream her to be as much as perished, no longer a problem to be dealt with. Now, here she was, her grimy feet set at the end of a trail she'd forged through the sand as she pursued him. To make the situation even more exasperating, the little fool looked up at him with an idiotic grin plastered to her face. His jaw set hard, refusing to return any pleasantries she offered him. <-- No, this is not meant to be brilliant writing, it is merely giving you an example of what I feel would fix the scene. To me it feels choppy and a bit rushed.

Jay wrote: "In general, Lydia, you’re thinking cinematicly, and reporting what you visualize happening in the scene. And because you are, you report the actions and the words. But the actions are meaningless t..."

I'm going to have to look at that article, it sounds very interesting!

I appreciate the feedback, it's helpful to get outside look into the short segment. Though it is a short segment so the background is missing, some of the suggestions were very helpful.

Tags are a very subjective thing, I automatically think about Ernest Hemingway who is famous for his curt writing style vs Tolkien's elaborate descriptions. It's finding that style and tone for your writing and how to weave that into a compelling narrative. Dwayne offered an interesting consideration of short dialogue with flowing descriptions as a balance.

Things to think about! Thank you for everyone who has added to the discussion, it's been very interesting to hear differing perspectives.

Lydia wrote: "I automatically think about Ernest Hemingway who is famous for his curt writing style vs Tolkien's elaborate descriptions..."

That's exactly what I meant when I was talking about the tone and nature of the book. Hemingway was writing in a stripped down unemotional language (probably coming from his journalist days), while Tolkien was writing high fantasy using lofty (most of the time) and more emotive language. They require/allow quite different approaches to dialogue tags.

Hemmingway never strands the reader. You always know where you are, what it's about, what is going on. As opposed to Faulkner. :)Just kidding, you know with him too, but they are opposites.

Further on Hemmingway: It's more than brevity. He is always clear, nothing sticks out, no word out of place. His writing is deceptive because he makes it look easy. When writing gets down to bare bones, then everything is on display. He's amazing.