Goodreads Librarians Group discussion

A Librarian suggested I bring this discussion to this thread.

Please read these discussions first:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

At hand is the issue of whether or not Patreon is a subscription for published content. It depends on the author but the author in question publishes monthly content for a subscription of one dollar.

If the supposition is that NO subscription content is permitted then I would forthwith suggest that any novellas, novelettes or short stories published in an magazine obtained with a subscription be deleted from Goodreads as well, then. And what about subscription serialized fiction, like Serial Box productions? Graphic novels received by subscription to a series? KINDLE serials, as well.

Patreon is geared to deliver author-published content. If you read the description for this particular author, it is clearly a subscription that delivers one story, novelette or novella a month for $1. In the case of Seanan McGuire's work, she has been releasing one story a month since 2016.

The standard proposed is not logically consistent with other content, including some Kindle content, on GR. I see entries for magazine published stories, novellas and such ALL the time. How are you parsing the difference between one subscription platform and another?

For future reference, you can also just change the folder you posted in by clicking on the 'edit' link next to the topic title instead of starting a new thread :)

Marzie wrote: "I see entries for magazine published stories, novellas and such ALL the time."

That is because anyone can add titles to the database. Not everybody is aware of, or cares about, the rules.

Below is the GR policy. I have bolded the section regarding stories that are accessible only by subscription or registration. Note that stories pubilshed only in a magazine are not valid entries on GR. (And there are exceptions to magazines being allowed.)

Librarians are volunteers and the catalog is extensive. Members may make additions that do not comply with policy. It is only when the volunteer librarians stumble across invalid entries, or they are brought to our attention by another, that they are deleted.

NON-BOOK ITEMS
The following is a list of items that should not be added to the database:

* Magazines
* Zines
* Individual comics (unless they have an ISBN or ASIN (Kindle only))
* Shorts:
***Short stories only published in an anthology or magazine
***Deleted scenes
***Extras only published at the back of a specific book edition
***Stories only available via subscription to a newsletter, or via a website that requires registration
***Incomplete and in progress works (this is different from "forthcoming" works, which are considered completed but as yet unpublished)

Shorts are retained in some cases. Shorts that belong are those that are:
* Published separately
* Published online as a specified short story (i.e. not a 'bonus')
* Complete flash fiction

Please note that items that do not meet Goodreads policies for inclusion in the database may be deleted without warning.

Amazon Kindle books require registration on a website. How is that any different? Because Amazon owns Goodreads so they don’t want competition?

Either we are here to serve the readers and provide them with all the info they need, or we aren’t. And if we aren’t, then maybe we need to stop advertising ourselves as such.

I would like to quote moderator Rivka from another thread (https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...?) here:

rivka wrote: "Goodreads policy is that novellas are only listed separately if they were sold (or otherwise distributed, such as being available for free download from an author's site) separately."

Patreon stories are FOR SALE, everyone pays a minimum of $1 each month to buy a short story or a novella. It's exactly the same as purchasing an ebook from Amazon, Nook or anywhere else that sells ebooks. You don't have to buy the book every month, you can buy a story once every 6 months if that is your preference. The fact is PEOPLE ARE BUYING THESE STORIES!!

It's blatantly clear that Goodreads policies contradict themselves when it comes to Patreon, they're allowed because they're on sale but equally they're not allowed because you have to register to buy them. So in that case SURELY it is only common sense that says don't delete them? They're not causing any harm, in fact what they are doing is helping readers find more stories and increasing their enjoyment of Seanan's series because a lot of her Patreon stories are directly part of her main series timelines. There is zero reason to delete them unless you're a total moron.

Preach it, Sarah!

Sarah wrote: "I would like to quote moderator Rivka from another thread (...):

rivka wrote: "Goodreads policy is that novellas are only listed separately if they were sold (or otherwise distributed, such as being available for free download from an author's site) separately."

Technical question to you both.
How do you buy a single work from Patreon?

Hi, Olivia. Good question! You can pause your pledges any time you want, and I know multiple people who wait until a story they want comes out before repledging. So while there are certainly some subscription-like attributes to Patreon, it’s not exactly that either... which is why we wanted a discussion about the policy, even if the end result wasn’t a change, but didn’t get it.

Thanks Steven.
I thought I might have been missing something.

"Similarly, award-winning author Seanan McGuire currently has around 2000 patrons. Her account doesn't operate on a monthly model; rather, backers pledge an amount per short story McGuire releases – and with the amount of backers and different levels she has, this currently adds up to over $10,000 pledged per story."

https://writersedit.com/self-publishi...

But if I don’t have a patron account I can’t read the installations correct?

And the kindle argument is a straw man - those books are available to anyone to purchase at any time - I don’t have to subscribe to buy - anyone can have an amazon account and purchase or not puechae

Just like you can’t purchase or read a kindle book without an amazon account, you have to have an account for Patreon, yes. Anyone can sign up for a Patreon account without purchasing anything. And just like you don’t have to purchase every book on kindle, you don’t have to purchase every Patreon story. And you can pay for one and get the entire backlog instantly. Is Kindle Unlimited not very similar to this as well? It’s not a straw man argument.

I think my biggest confusion in all of this is why so many of you, most of whom don’t have any of this series on your shelves and have absolutely no stake in the argument, are so desperate to prevent an author’s work from being readily accessible and discoverable by readers. It’s like you WANT readers to miss out. And that just really doesn’t compute for me on a site for readers and as a reader myself. Why do you all seem to disregard the end goal here - to connect more readers to more stories, to help the author afford to keep writing for a living, to allow more people to find and read quality work?

Since everyone is so clearly against this, here’s my question for you all: what is the point/purpose/mission of Goodreads? Why should we not provide readers with as much information about a series as possible? Does providing this information hurt anyone? Does not providing this information hurt anyone? And the argument “because the policy says so” isn’t a good point here. That’s not enough to justify censoring the information, as even Rivka herself said policies aren’t law. I want your reasons beyond that simple reply, to know you actually considered the issue and actually think it’s a bad idea.

This is a site for books. I think it generous of GR to extend it to short stories, but in the interest of it becoming too unwieldy, they have restrictions on stories. Rivka has said she is familiar with Patreon because she gets some stories there. She recognizes the site does not comply with GR policy.

Steven wrote: "Just like you can’t purchase or read a kindle book without an amazon account, you have to have an account for Patreon, yes. Anyone can sign up for a Patreon account without purchasing anything. And..."

Because I can buy kindle unlimited books without having a subscription - KU is a book borrowing service that limits you to 10 books at a time...

And there are simikarcsubscription sites like heartbreakers and heroes that offer exclusive shorts and not in the database because they aten’t Widely accessible

Hmm, I can appreciate the book and short story difference. I don’t think it’s too unwieldy when they have volunteers doing the majority of the work, but I can see that as a valid point. I wouldn’t call it “being generous” though. This site is built on people using it. Providing information to the readers isn’t being generous - it’s doing what the website is here for.

As for the comment about Rivka’s opinion, we have already established that, so reiterating it is a little redundant and not really an answer to my “arguments other than because the policy said so” question, though to be fair, I should have clarified that I also was including that “because Rivka said so” in that.

I just want to know actual reasons on why we shouldn’t provide the best and most complete information to readers. The point about books and short stories is a good one. There are tons of both so it certainly adds complexity to the database.

Steven wrote: "I don’t think it’s too unwieldy when they have volunteers doing the majority of the work"

The database is the best on the internet, and still is a mess. Actually, if they never added another edition of anything to the database, the librarians could spend years fixing the things that already need fixing.

Okay, Dee, so it’s not entirely the same as Kindle Unlimited. It brings up the point that Patreon is a purchase and not a subscription rental. I have the product forever. But you neglected to reply to my other points and to my bigger picture question.

Sign up for Amazon account > browse products > buy what I want

Sign up for Patreon > browse > get what I want

Dee wrote: "But if I don’t have a patron account I can’t read the installations correct?"

You can have a Patreon account and still not be able to download the ebook format(s). You need to pay the specific creator for the specific content. You can pay multiple creators or none at all. Each creator can setup whatever payment structure they wish for whatever they're selling.

Dee wrote: "And the kindle argument is a straw man - those books are available to anyone to purchase at any time - I don’t have to subscribe to buy - anyone can have an amazon account and purchase or not puechae"

Nope not a straw man. A perfectly reasonable analogy. Same goes for any online storefront, be it Amazon, Smashwords, or ....Patreon. ;-)

Example:

I want to read this short by Josh Lanyon from Smashwords:
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view...

I click the Buy button, but wait...I'm getting an error, "Login required
You must be logged in to add items to your cart." So I guess I have to select the "Click here to register for an account", oh dear. If I *register* to download and read this short I won't be able to catalog it on GR because... I'd have REGISTERED on a website to get it and that makes it a NON-BOOK ITEM! ROFLMAO!

Content creators who are using Patreon to sell their works are no different than authors who choose to sell via other online storefronts. You can have a Patreon account (which is free) and not patronize any content creators, in which case you won't get any works. You can pay a content creator X $ for X works. They are not mutually exclusive.

The bottom line is that any work of fiction whether it's a short story or epic tome is reading material. It should be able to be cataloged and tracked by readers regardless of how or where it was obtained or even if it was purchased or free. It was read and that should be all that matters to a site that proclaims to want readers to track their reading.

GR staff (which includes Rivka) decide sources of Sara for the database - - they decided that Paetron wasn’t one

Here’s a confounding variable - what if authors on paetron don’t want their short stories featured on here...

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "The database is the best on the internet, and still is a mess. Actually, if they never added another edition of anything to the database, the librarians could spend years fixing the things that already need fixing."

We know it's already the best on the internet but the reason we all spend our time helping to fix it is because we want it to be better.

I don't see any reason in the world that some of us adding all of Seanan's stories so that her fans and readers can find everything she's written is causing any problems for anyone else. We're not asking anyone to do that work for us, we're just asking for other librarians to please follow the spirit of GR and allow these stories to stay when it's obvious that the policy offers conflicting advice about this particular circumstance.

Literally ALL it would have taken to completely avoid this is for nobody to delete and merge those stories. It isn't GR who implemented that, just overzealous librarians who didn't really have to do it. You can argue that they have the right to do it fine but I'd still say they didn't HAVE to do it. Especially since this is obviously something that has been discussed multiple times over at least a year based on other threads.

Tal wrote: "The bottom line is that any work of fiction whether it's a short story or epic tome is reading material."

This site is not restricted to fiction. And "reading material" is not what GR was set up for. Most magazines, for example, are not allowed, and surely most people would include those in "reading material".

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Tal wrote: "The bottom line is that any work of fiction whether it's a short story or epic tome is reading material."

This site is not restricted to fiction. And "reading material" is not what GR ..."

In fact just a month ago there was a similar debate about DCO-fi/fantasy ezines

Dee wrote: "Here’s a confounding variable - what if authors on paetron don’t want their short stories featured on here..."

To answer this question someone already responded on one of the threads discussing this that Seanan has stated she wanted the stories on here but she's given up trying to speak to Goodreads about anything because they have zero interest in helping her as an author

Sarah wrote: "we're just asking for other librarians to please follow the spirit of GR"

I must follow policy. I don't know what this so-called "spirit" is all about.

Yet again, Elizabeth and Dee, you’re arguing about specifics of the policy. I’m asking you to answer the other questions I asked you. Are you sidestepping that one because you don’t have any real reasons why we should disconnect readers from stories OTHER than “because the policy and Rivka said so”...? Also, Dee, I’m not setting up a fake argument and knocking it down, so it’s not a straw man. At best, you could claim false equivalency but even that’s a stretch.

How about I try asking it a different way? Let’s say you work for Goodreads. You have a new policy you want implemented that will make Patreon (etc) stories invalid entries on Goodreads where in this scenario they aren’t. Pitch it to the policy makers. Tell them reasons why they shouldn’t be included. Tell them your thought process behind it.

I want to know more than your defense that it is the current policy and that’s how it has been interpreted by current moderators. I want to know WHY you think interpreting that way is best for everyone involved - Goodreads, Readers, librarian volunteers, and authors.

Rivka *is* one of the policy-makers.

You're making your pitch here. I don't see that your pitch complies with even the spirit of GR. If those stories needed attention by a GR librarian, I'd have to set up an account. I don't want to do that. However, for Kindle editions, if I don't have to have an account, everything I might need to edit a book record is clearly available to me at the site.

I don't have to have an account for Project Gutenberg, nor for Archives.com or many other sites, to be able to see book records.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Sarah wrote: "we're just asking for other librarians to please follow the spirit of GR"

I must follow policy. I don't know what this so-called "spirit" is all about."

Okay, Elizabeth. I would hope that if you found a policy unfair, you’d fight to change it. If Goodreads policy was only to include works by male authors and disallow female ones, would you follow it because it was policy? Or would you follow it while working to change it? You cant possibly tell me that as a reader, a group that tends to be more educated and logical thinking, that you can be so myopic as to only see policy and not see anything past it or it’s shortcomings.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I must follow policy. I don't know what this so-called "spirit" is all about."

Okay I'll agree that we have to follow goodreads policy but only if you give a genuine answer to my previous comment (message 5 in this very thread) but let me post it again to save you the time it would take to scroll up the page:

I would like to quote moderator Rivka from another thread (https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...?) here:

rivka wrote: "Goodreads policy is that novellas are only listed separately if they were sold (or otherwise distributed, such as being available for free download from an author's site) separately."

Patreon stories are FOR SALE, everyone pays a minimum of $1 each month to buy a short story or a novella. It's exactly the same as purchasing an ebook from Amazon, Nook or anywhere else that sells ebooks. You don't have to buy the book every month, you can buy a story once every 6 months if that is your preference. The fact is PEOPLE ARE BUYING THESE STORIES!!

It's blatantly clear that Goodreads policies contradict themselves when it comes to Patreon, they're allowed because they're on sale but equally they're not allowed because you have to register to buy them. So in that case SURELY it is only common sense that says don't delete them? They're not causing any harm, in fact what they are doing is helping readers find more stories and increasing their enjoyment of Seanan's series because a lot of her Patreon stories are directly part of her main series timelines. There is zero reason to delete them unless you're a total moron.

______________

So if Goodreads policy states in one place that the stories are allowed and somewhere else that they're not how do you determine which rule should be followed? This is why I make the argument that it's easier to let them stay where they're offering a bigger service to readers while not actually doing any kind of harm!

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Rivka *is* one of the policy-makers."

She's also the person that stated quite clearly in another thread (I already linked it in my previous comment) that stories are allowed if they're for sale. So she's quite clearly contradicting herself regarding Patreon stories. You tell me which of her responses we should accept as the real rules?

Steven wrote: "Okay, Elizabeth. I would hope that if you found a policy unfair, you’d fight to change it. ."

I don't have a problem with your fighting to change it, even if I disagree with what you are proposing. Sarah was asking librarians to ignore policy.

Sarah wrote: "So she's quite clearly contradicting herself regarding Patreon stories. You tell me which of her responses we should accept as the real rules? "

"for sale at an author's website" is what you quoted. Patreon is not an author's website.

Yet again, you disregard my question. Did you even read my post? I asked you to put yourself into a scenario. You have yet to give me your reasons other than “because policy” so I tried to get you to answer it in a different way.

And your response disregards lots of things. Like the fact that only ONE volunteer out of thousands needs a Patreon account for them to be added, and lots already have them. Also, you claim that because kindle books are readily available, they’re valid. Well that’s ignorant. We need librarians because lots of those kindle books don’t come over or get imported accurately, and before Goodreads merged into Amazon, even those needed to be added. So they need librarian attention. I didn’t realize that ease of compilation was a reason to set policy. I think that probably means we should eliminate all entries of old out of print books because it takes extra work to find and edit their book data?

Clearly you just have no desire to discuss or see anything from anyone’s perspective except for your own shortsighted view of the censorship and picking and choosing going on.

Your point has been made. I’d like to have others the chance to answer, those who might be open minded enough to see that just because it is a policy doesn’t make it right, especially when it seems that policy comes straight down to one person’s opinion.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "This site is not restricted to fiction."

I don't recall ever saying it was. But the specific works/author being discussed in this topic are fiction based, so that's what I referenced.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "And "reading material" is not what GR was set up for."

I think "books" counts as reading material. I'm not interested in playing your semantic games. Do stop your straw man attempts by refuting something I didn't assert, it's tedious and beneath you Elizabeth. FTR, this is why I won't be addressing your magazine comment deflection. Just to refresh your memory, here's GR advertised purpose: (from this very website)

Who We Are

Goodreads is the world’s largest site for readers and book recommendations. Our mission is to help people find and share books they love. Goodreads launched in January 2007.
A Few Things You Can Do On Goodreads

See what books your friends are reading.
Track the books you're reading, have read, and want to read.
Check out your personalized book recommendations. Our recommendation engine analyzes 20 billion data points to give suggestions tailored to your literary tastes.
Find out if a book is a good fit for you from our community’s reviews.

Book. Notice it doesn't say novel. Short stories are indeed *books* so long as they are published, digitally or traditionally. Whether they cost $ or are free.

No Elizabeth, Rivka said offered for free at an author’s website as an example of “otherwise distributed separately”

Please quote correctly if you’re going to.

“Goodreads policy is that novellas are only listed separately if they were sold (or otherwise distributed, such as being available for free download from an author's site) separately.”

Sold separately (or otherwise distributed separately)

The author’s site part is clearly connected to the “or otherwise distributed.”

Try again.

Tal, the mission of Goodreads is to help people find and share books they love? Hmmm, I guess that completely destroys Elizabeth’s comment that my wanting to give readers more access to books not being “the spirit of GR” huh?

Steven wrote: "So she's quite clearly contradicting herself regarding Patreon stories. You tell me which of her responses we should accept as the real rules? "

Yes, I read your post. I disagree with the policy you are proposing. I have stated my reasons. Just one librarian having a subscription is not sufficient. I don't know the reasons behind the policy, and I don't honestly care what they are.

I might say there are a couple of policies with which I disagree. It's not my website, and I will comply with GR decisions. I'm not going to fight them.

Steven wrote: "to give readers more access to books not being “the spirit of GR” huh?
"

Speaking of misquoting ... Sarah wanted librarians to disregard actual policy and comply with the "spirit". No. Not. Ever.

Steven wrote: "And your response disregards lots of things. Like the fact that only ONE volunteer out of thousands needs a Patreon account for them to be added, and lots already have them. "

Librarians should not have to take an account in order to add or edit books. It is irrelevant that many librarians already have an account. A website should be open to all, without registration.

I remember an issue with a Norwegian library that offered downloads of public-domain books. But some, if not all, books were restricted to Norwegian IP addresses, and those editions and download links were not allowed on GR. It is not the same thing, but a similar situation.

oh I guess I was wrong. You ARE that incredibly myopic. I’m very glad you are so rigidly attached to the way things are. Things always get better and progress is always made by those who stick rigidly to the way things are. You are a champion librarian and so much more righteous than those of us who see unfair policies and want to discuss them. I’m so thankful you are here to show us the error of our ways.

And no, Sarah wanted Rivka to be considerate and show good leadership by listening to complaints of unfair policy rather than just hammering her gavel and moving on. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you willfully ignore much of the conversation when you’ve been doing it the whole time.

I hope you enjoy your selfimportance. Good day.

lethe wrote: "Steven wrote: "And your response disregards lots of things. Like the fact that only ONE volunteer out of thousands needs a Patreon account for them to be added, and lots already have them. "

Libra..."

Well shucks, I had to register for both Amazon and goodreads! All of those books should be disregarded now!!!

Also, you said public domain books, which means readers already had access to their information here from other editions. Leaving them off does no disservice to the readers.

Steven wrote: "I had to register for both Amazon"

No you didn't. Not to look at books (or any of their other products). You can see the products and information without ever having an account. I can look at stuff on Amazon accounts in other countries without registering (and have done so).

Tal wrote: "I'm not interested in playing your semantic games. Do stop your straw man attempts by refuting something I didn't assert, it's tedious and beneath you Elizabeth. FTR, this is why I won't be addressing your magazine comment deflection."

In case you had forgotten, these were your exact words:

"The bottom line is that any work of fiction whether it's a short story or epic tome is reading material. It should be able to be cataloged and tracked by readers regardless of how or where it was obtained or even if it was purchased or free. It was read and that should be all that matters to a site that proclaims to want readers to track their reading." (emphasis mine)

Magazines are also being read, and lots of GR users would like to track them. Yet Goodreads is for books.

Steven wrote: "Tal, the mission of Goodreads is to help people find and share books they love?"

Theoretically. :D I'm still floored this is your first experience with absurd librarian policy. It's just chock full of gems but this does fall under the notorious *NOT A BOOK* section. Seriously though, you have a better chance of experiencing a real Christmas miracle than getting GR to acknowledge the flawed policy.

Sarah wrote: "...Patreon stories are FOR SALE, everyone pays a minimum of $1 each month to buy a short story or a novella. .... The fact is PEOPLE ARE BUYING THESE STORIES!! ... "

Shouting is considered to be very poor netiquette.

Sarah also wrote: "...There is zero reason to delete them unless you're a total moron." and in a previous post " If the policy contradicts itself then surely the best course of action is to hand it over to someone with a brain rather than cause an almighty screw up just because you're on a power trip!"

Your continued ad hominem attacks against the Goodreads staff member who moderates the Librarian Group are both appalling and misplaced. Employees either follow policy or they find themselves unemployed. Protests against written policy are more effective when directed to the policy makers, not the employees tasked with carrying out policy. Do so by using the Contact us link.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Steven wrote: "I had to register for both Amazon"

No you didn't. Not to look at books (or any of their other products). You can see the products and information without ever having an account. I c..."

Interesting, because I can go to Patreon and scroll through and see all of the short stories she offers and her brief descriptions of them. Alas she doesn’t offer samples because they’re short works.

Next.

And yes, to read the books I did have to register for Amazon, dear.

Steven wrote: "And yes, to read the books I did have to register for Amazon, dear."

We are not talking about reading the books, hon. We are talking about being able to see the bibliographic details needed for adding the books to the website.

Steven wrote: "Interesting, because I can go to Patreon and scroll through and see all of the short "

Interesting, because I *did* visit the Patreon site for a couple of short stories (for GR librarian work) and I wasn't able to do so because I had to register.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Speaking of misquoting ... Sarah wanted librarians to disregard actual policy and comply with the "spirit". No. Not. Ever."

Well said, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Interesting, because I *did* visit the Patreon site for a couple of short stories (for GR librarian work) and I wasn't able to do so because I had to register."

Ditto.