Support for Indie Authors discussion

I've been thinking about this topic a few times already and decided to try asking for the opinion here.

Have you ever made a reference to something outside of your writing, such as favorite movie/book/band/game? Do you think it a good or bad idea (when used in moderation, of course)?

Personally, I have three or four chapters named after a song and one after a quest from a game.

I do this constantly. I see no harm in it. If someone catches the reference, it adds to the pleasure of reading. If they don't, well, no big deal as long as understanding the reference is not important to the story in some way.

As for it being a "good" or "bad" idea? Neither. It's a personal choice. If it's something you enjoy doing in your work, go for it.

Yeah. Let me remember...
My first novel: references to Batman, and a phrase from Secret of Mana: "Clear your mind, wait until you have maximum power, and aim carefully!"
Second novel: drinks named "Mountain Sweat" and "Cola Loca", and some rivals of the heroes are featured in a TV show named "PSI: Paranormal Scene Investigations", with the actual characters have nothing to do with the actual CSI members.

But I do suggest you don't overdo it, or it may sound very fanfic-like. And I second Dwayne's suggestion: I hate it when someone makes a reference I can't catch and it's supposedly important for the understanding of the story. From what you wrote, I don't think those references will confuse anyone.

Yeah, it's all done so they are unnoticeable unless you know what to look for. 4 chapter names out of 60 is not much. It's definitely something that's not necessary to know, just as my own tribute to things I like.

I have three or four chapters named after a song and one after a quest from a game.

Assume your reader has never heard of the song, or game. What does that name you've assigned contribute to the reading enjoyment? Only the feeling that they may be missing something that matters.

So, if the answer is that it contributes nothing, those names you’ve given (they’re not titles, because titles are related to the chapter in some way that’s meaningful to the reader) fall into the category of a “darling,” a piece of writing that the author loves, but which contribute nothing. And as always, the advice is: “kill your darlings.”

Think of the downside. Suppose you name a song, game, or whatever, that the reader hates?

Jay wrote: "Assume your reader has never heard of the song, or game. What does that name you've assigned contribute to the reading enjoyment? Only the feeling that they may be missing something that matters.
"

It's done when the song's name fits the chapter as a name, not out of nowhere. Hence, if the reader has no clue where it came from, there's no problem in that. I would not make any kind of reference the way you hinted because I realize it would do more harm than good. I am keeping it on the subtle side.

I've done it a few times. It's fun leaving Easter eggs for people to find. I don't think it's a bad thing, in moderation, as long as you stick within Fair Use boundaries.

For me, anytime I see some media (books, movies, TV) drop one of those in, it's always a joyous moment of "I saw what you did there", and it's nice to be able to do that to/for others too.

I have written 5 action-romance books, all based on current events. I provide a bibliography at the end to acknowledge the source of the material. The links are also useful to a reader that might want to know more about a topic or an event.

I sprinkle pop culture references throughout my books, but I never directly address them.

For example, as my heroes are loading a spaceship to attack the bad guys orbiting Earth, the leader asks if everyone is ready. Then, the joker on the team responds with: "Templar Five, standing by." The other characters laugh, and the leader says, "Oh no, if anyone's Luke, it's me."

It's pretty obvious what the joke is among true SFF fans, but nothing is specifically confirmed. I think it's a lot more fun.

Jay wrote: "Assume your reader has never heard of the song, or game."

I recently read a novel in which two whole pages were filled with a character driving a car and listening to the radio. Song titles were given for songs I had never heard before. There were commercials listed, too, for products that no longer exist. Earlier in the book two characters are watching The Mickey Mouse Club (the original) and the name of the show is not given. There are plenty of clues, such as the use of the word Mouseketeer and the names Cubby, Darlene, and Jimmie. I have never seen the original Mickey Mouse Club and only know a little about it. I didn't know most of the songs listed, I didn't know most of the products mentioned in the book. However, when one was mentioned that I knew, Stagger Lee for example, it helped paint the backdrop of the time and culture of the story.

The book is called Rabbit Run. The author is John Updike. If you've never heard of him, he actually did pretty well for himself with his writing.

Think of the downside. Suppose you name a song, game, or whatever, that the reader hates?

If we're going to go that road and omit anything a reader might not like, there's no point in writing.

Jay wrote: "And as always, the advice is: 'kill your darlings.'"

It's always nice to attribute quotes to those who first said it. In this case, Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch.

In my first book, the main character was outside and he sang, "Baby, it's cold outside" to his girlfriend. He had just surprised her by driving a long distance and was knocking on the door in the wee hours of the morning.

Does the author then have to credit the songwriter or get some type of permission to quote lines from a song? Or acknowledge the source in some official way? I wrote in a reference to a song and singer, not by name, who I later realized had not yet written that song ten years earlier when my scene took place, so I edited it out despite that it had added to my scene.

It was the statement "Baby, it's cold outside". Does anyone own words? Maybe, if I used an entire stanza or song but I didn't.

Jacqueline wrote: "Does the author then have to credit the songwriter or get some type of permission to quote lines from a song?"

This one is a little tricky, from what I understand. If you are using several lines of song lyrics, yes. You need to get permission, give credit, and possibly pay a fee. I occasionally have a character give a brief quote from a song and I believe that's okay, as long as it's not a long quote, like this:

Patrick looked up in his mirror and his eyes caught mine. “What’s that line from Sympathy For The Devil? ‘Every cop is a criminal’?”

I nodded.

Generally, even when I do something like that, I mention the artist somewhere in the story. In this case, Sympathy For The Devil gets mentioned a lot in the novel. This is the only place it's quoted at all.

Pamela wrote: "It was the statement "Baby, it's cold outside". Does anyone own words? Maybe, if I used an entire stanza or song but I didn't."

I think in this case, you're fine.

Dwayne wrote: "Pamela wrote: "It was the statement "Baby, it's cold outside". Does anyone own words? Maybe, if I used an entire stanza or song but I didn't."

I think in this case, you're fine."

I thought so but thanks.

As a reader, I don't mind it. It's nice to read a reference if it's fitting and what not. I myself just recently put deep references in my latest novel and most people will get them and others may not get the deeper ones.

As Dwayne said, you can make references to things but it has to be done in a way where you are using only a title or a few words. Anything more and you are infringing on their copyright.

In one of my books, I use the lyrics of various songs to open each chapter. What I did was to look for songs which were in the public domain. Those you can use without a problem. I did reference a couple of popular songs, but only by title or a partial line from the song. If you want to do more, you do need to get permission and be prepared to pay for it. Good luck on that as it can take as high as a year and cost into the thousands depending on the artist and how much you are using and your projected sales. Yep, I tried it for one song I really wanted to use. I changed from that song to one from the public domain selections I found.

My thoughts....they should be paying us for advertising for them. It'd help our bottom line and they get free advertising in our book(s) and a revival of their song/movie/TV show, etc. Nice dream, but not happening, but it does make sense.

It also depends on the person. There are people (bands, even) who think that song cover is pretty much stealing their art - and there are really fan-friendly bands. I've used it where I felt the name was way more original than any generic chapter title I could've come with.
(view spoiler)[For example, the end of my current WIP takes place after a battle which had some losses. I've named it "Darkened days to come" after a song of a Nordic gothic-metal band instead of any generic 'funeral' title. The other cases are not even to the word but slightly paraphrased. (hide spoiler)]

I do it regularly, in three different flavours:

- An open reference or quote. (Usually not longer than a sentence, as these are still my works. It also prevents problems with copyright where too much can turn on some red lights.)
- An indirect reference to something, that should be obvious to readers into the subject. (Like a Monty Python reference.)
- Easter eggs. (Few will spot them, but they will probably enjoy the finding a lot.)

The first two may be tributes too.

My rule of thumb is, that the text should function without the knowledge to the reference. These should be just bonuses on top of the main story and not part of the core. (Except if the reference itself is an integral part of the story, but that's another matter.)

"Kill your darlings"...

That phrase gave chills down my spine.

If I did that, I'd stop writing completely; I'd also stop making art. I'd pretty much become a living corpse without a shred of joy for living. I'd be out kicking puppies and stoning couples at parks.

I always try to look at every side of the coin before passing judgment on a piece of advice... But that's the piece of advice I'd give the LEAST credit in all my life.

The "Kill your darlings" is a reference to when you are stuck, you kill off a prominent character in your work to get it moving again. It can also mean that you have a secondary character who is taking over the story. Ya need to stop him/her or change the story.

Then again, if you do kill off your MC.....thinking.....it may take you onto a really great journey you weren't expecting. Hmm. WIP could use some help....Kill off a darling....Yep. Just might work...lol.

B.A. wrote: "The "Kill your darlings" is a reference to when you are stuck, you kill off a prominent character in your work to get it moving again."

I've never heard it used that way. Interesting approach to writing! Maybe that's George R. R. Martin's secret.*

What it usually means is getting rid of excess fluff in your novel that you love dearly, but doesn't really add anything to your book. Maybe a character you love, but serves no real purpose in the story, or a chapter that doesn't move anything forward, though beautifully written.

*DISCLAIMER: I have never read any George R. R. Martin. I have only heard he likes to kill off characters willy-nilly. If this is not true, I apologize to any fans of G.R.R.M.I.N.O. Wait...

Dwayne wrote: "What it usually means is getting rid of excess fluff in your novel that you love dearly, but doesn't really add anything to your book ..."

The quote is often attributed to Stephen King but he was only quoting William Faulkner who was rephrasing part of a quote by Arthur Quiller-Couch: "Whenever you feel an impulse to perpetrate a piece of exceptionally fine writing, obey it—whole-heartedly—and delete it before sending your manuscript to press. Murder your darlings."

Others have said similar things even earlier than that but none of them meant kill your characters, plots, scenes, or really good ideas. They were, as Dwayne said, advising us to practice rigorous self-editing by remove elements of our stories that we personally love and treasure but which do not hold the same importance for the reader.

Back to the OP, though, I do sometimes make references to books or songs or comedy skits or pop culture when it is appropriate to the story. Whatever the reference is it has to make sense in the context of the story for even people who don't know it's a reference at all.

Titles of books and poems and songs are not usually covered by copyright law because they are insufficiently original or uniquely the creation of the song writer, author, or poet. For example, did Springsteen come up with the phrase "born to run?" No. It's a common phrase and would not be covered by copyright. Quotes from actual song lyrics, however, generally are covered because when you string enough words together you are more likely to come up with a unique arrangement of words. You don't hear people running around saying "When I was younger, so much younger than today; I never needed anybody's help in any way" in common speech. So ... I might be in trouble there!

Even so, you have to be careful or violating trademark law. But if you're really wanting the lowdown on all this, talk to an actual copyright, trademark, or entertainments lawyer!

There is someone here on GR who got into trouble, for example, for quoting Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics verbatim in their self-published SF book. They sought permission to use it because they are a decent human being ... and were not only denied, but got cease and desist orders and were unable to even self-publish the book on Amazon. In the end they had to remove the quote and publish the book under a different title.

When I find a reference that I understand in a book that's done well, though, I'm pretty pleased. Especially if it's one that I know most people will miss. It's nice to know sometimes that I'm not the only one who cherishes some obscure stuff.

Yes, when I made that post I meant "deleting the parts you love but that do not serve an utilitarian, conformist, politically correct end". That's like whittling pieces of your soul away. Keep it up too much and your soul won't have enough substance to survive.

On a related note, I just remembered something important! This is common knowledge among fanartists, but I think many of you won't have heard of it...
Avoid Disney-anything!
They'll send you threats to sue the pants out of you if you use the tiniest thing from them. I also remember that at fanfiction.net they show you a list, when you sign up, of authors that don't want a single comma from their work reproduced anywhere, Anne Rice among them. I would stay clear of them!

Haru wrote: "I also remember that at fanfiction.net they show you a list, when you sign up, of authors that don't want a single comma from their work reproduced anywhere, Anne Rice among them. I would stay clear of them!"

They must surely be great people /sarcasm off

Haru wrote: "I also remember that at fanfiction.net they show you a list, when you sign up, of authors that don't want a single comma from their work reproduced anywhere, Anne Rice among them. I would stay clear of them! "

I want on that list.

I've heard of some really egregiously vindictive actions on youtube as well. A musician I've seen on a music forum had his youtube video yanked because of a copyright complaint. He had posted a synthesizer version of a classical piece and in the description he put "in the style of Wendy Carlos" (who did the famous Switched On albums back in the late sixties on Moog synthesizers). It was not even a song she had done, but her lawyers filed a complaint simply because he said he had done classical music on synths like Carlos had done. As if she's got the copyright on all electronic classical music.

I don't think he ever got the video reposted either. Crazy.

I think a reference can be made if it is adding something symbolically to the story or paragraph per se. For instance, writing about swiftness and referring to a chase being like, Liddell and Abrahams in Chariots of Fire. On the other hand, a reader might not be aware of the significance of the reference and might not get its intention. So, it might be prudent to have references that are not too dated or overdone. My caveat, nonetheless, would be, who are the intended readers?

Tomas wrote: "I've been thinking about this topic a few times already and decided to try asking for the opinion here.

Have you ever made a reference to something outside of your writing, such as favorite movie/..."

It's okay to use titles but you should check into 'fair use' for mentioning lyrics. As long as you mention a thing that is not seen as slanderous, should be okay to use.

Normally I stay away from this but I recently put several in my new novel but they are all well known in popular culture and some are modern but I don't feel will get lost later on. I know one reason people don't include references is that they are afraid they will become outdated. Movies, songs, and lyrics are always a fun idea but how long will the reference be known for?

Justin: maybe the point is that I don't really care whether they'll be known. It's just something I did for my own silly joy.