SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

I apologize for being a bit late in setting this up, but this is the Buddy Read thread for The Way To The Stars.

I'm looking forward to hearing what y'all think about this book. Please remember to use spoiler tags and chapter numbers in your comments.

Thanks, Mareike, I just started it.

ETA: The writing is kind of cute and utterly befitting Tilly. Very good combination.

;) since I listened the last 150 hours to books with a character named "Shallan", her mother's name makes me grin.

Ch1: (view spoiler)[ Yeah for mushrooms! - and yeah for the Natural History Museum - I used to fly to London only to visit this Museum - so good! (hide spoiler)]

Thank you, Mareike!

I'm but at the beginning yet too, but already giddy for the mention of (view spoiler)["couple of experts" of Mycology, and the prevailing presence of opera - the mass entertainment of the future? (hide spoiler)]

I've been curious how well this will tie in with the events in the comic (ST Disco Annual 2018).

Haha, yes! right there with you, Jemppu!

I just finished chapter 1 and I like that Tilly (view spoiler)[listens to Bowie. I mean, clearly, Bowie will be revered in every future timeline. (Except maybe the MirrorUniverse.) (hide spoiler)]

The last line of the chapter (view spoiler)[ "...And I wish—oh, I wish—I knew what it was I did that made you go away.”> is heartbreaking. I just want to hug her, And maybe have words with her mother. (hide spoiler)]

Mareike wrote: "Haha, yes! right there with you, Jemppu!

I just finished chapter 1 and I like that Tilly [spoilers removed]

I must admit that is something that often bothers me in SF stories - as if there was nothing to refer to in times to come.


The last line of the chapter
"...And I wish—oh, I wish—I knew what it was I did that..."

This is really horrible!

Ch2: (view spoiler)[ I feel Tilly reg science over language classes (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 1
(view spoiler)[Bit worried will the "Starfleet was never the plan" remark make Tilly's one determination (to be a Captain some day) to not be her aspiration, but her way of appeasing her mom's wishes to "be our best". Really doesn't make it a thing to celebrate, the way fandom has thus far, it feels. Rather makes you wish she'd find her own way. Buuut, let's see, where that goes.

Though: hello, some opportunity to bond with Paul? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 4
(view spoiler)[Communicators are in civilian use too? To check newsfeeds? Surely PADDs would be the more optimal for that, right?

Lieutenant Ian Tilly - ooh, how inspiration strikes! But, what if they ever get featured in the show? Here played with a Scottish accent: so, Sylvia really is Merida, huh? (hide spoiler)]

Gabi wrote: "I must admit that is something that often bothers me in SF stories - as if there was nothing to refer to in times to come."
So much agreement. (view spoiler)[All such modern phenomena in general tend to be cringeworthy, unless very well justified or direct references to these times we live in now. I can just about forgive Paul's uncle's Beatles cover band (he's probably a more eccentric 'hipstery' kind to like centuries old music), but here it would've felt much more befitting somehow, if Tilly was into some contemporary 'fad band' or some such.

Sidenote: I've also long wondered, if "Paul" would've then been named after McCartney, since there probably didn't exist the real "Stamets" in their timeline, or if he did it's some coincidence! ...or is mycology a family occupation from centuries past? *hah* (hide spoiler)]

Hello and welcome to the hashtag Protect Sylvia Tilly Squad 2k19

I've already finished the novel because I was able to just tear through it in a single evening (seriously, you northern hemisphere folks, now I understand how you're all always going through books so quickly - there's nothing else to do once the sun sets at like 4.30.) so I'll just flick through each chapter as y'all reach them and add in thoughts as we go.

Prologue (view spoiler)[ I really liked this - I wasn't expecting to see Michael at all in this story, so to open up with a little exploration of their friendship was really delightful. Also, the fact that they're still sharing a room even though Michael's regained her command position is *so* cute. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 1 (view spoiler)[ Oh, I just want to wrap Tilly up in a hug, okay. That enormous insecurity and fear that Tilly's feeling is so familiar. This look into non-Starfleet life was very fascinating too - it didn't quite occur to me that in this setting, someone could live in Paris and commute to New York and back daily, but of course someone could. I always enjoy seeing how the world is built in these novels based on TV shows - the expansions are always so good. (hide spoiler)]

Jemppu wrote: "Chapter 1
[spoiler removed]

I think the bit about (view spoiler)[the bit about Starfleet never having been the plan is just foreshadowing about her mother wanting Tilly to go into the diplomatic corps.
I'm in chapter 3 and it's pretty clear already that that's very far down on Tilly's list of career choices, she just needs to admit it to herself and put her foot down with her mother. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 3: I'm really feeling this bit: (view spoiler)["Tilly rubbed her eyes and put on her brightest smile. Armor, she thought as she followed her friends out of the room. I’m wearing my armor."

Generally, I like how the school and the other students are introduced and Love watching Tilly find her way. Though I'm also a bit a annoyed at Risera. Taking Tilly out with her parents is nice, but if it's ultimately only because they want to meet Tilly's mother, I'm giving them a lot of side-eye.

And I'm definitely annoyed with Siobhan. Jesus, woman. Maybe take a moment to actually listen to what your daughter wants to do.

It also breaks my heart that Tilly seems to think she's the reason for her parents' separation. (hide spoiler)]

re re @Mareike chapter 1 (view spoiler)[Mareike wrote: "...foreshadowing about her mother wanting Tilly to go into the diplomatic corps..."
Good call. Totally missed the snark on that statement ;) Am relieved - and glad, it actually strengthens her own resolve against that. (hide spoiler)]

Mareike reg Ch 3 (view spoiler)[ yeah, it especially hit me as she thought that she did something wrong, cause otherwise her father wouldn't have taken on the long distance assignment. That's this parents topic that I always hate (well … since I'm working in the field it's always prominent in my mind anyway). If ppl aren't committed to step back from their lifestyle to make room for children, they simply shouldn't have them. As long as self realisation is the most important part, please leave children out of the picture. … sorry … personal pet issue (hide spoiler)]

I forgot: I'm listening to the audioversion (since the price of the ebook version is over my budget) and the narrator, January LaVoy, is fantastic. She gets Tilly's voice spot on.

Ch5: (view spoiler)[ This is a perfect Tilly thing to do. I'm curious how she will get out of this embarrassing situation. I love it that she is written as such an ambiguous teenager. There is not much in respect of a plot so far, but adorable characterisation. (hide spoiler)]

Ch6: (view spoiler)[ Okay, I take it back about the plot. This is fun! And it is interesting how McCormack goes out of her way to make every character female - fitting the DSC legacy (hide spoiler)]

re @gab ch 3 (view spoiler)[Gabi wrote: "...If ppl aren't committed to step back from their lifestyle to make room for children, they simply shouldn't have them."
Yes! Thank you. Fully agreed, and a petpeeve of mine too. Just... inconsiderate and selfish, frankly. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 5
(view spoiler)[Ginger shunning would still/again be somehow a thing, or in fresh memory? I have hard time believing this, given how much else gets treated with reason.

*heehee* I'm getting such personally motivated glee over the parallels presented here, between boat engine work and starship engineering training. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 6
(view spoiler)["Absentminded scientist, whose smalltalk is terrible"? *hah* What Tilly expects of her 'father figures'? No wonder she'd find Stamets endearing (??).

Did the "no yellow" remark just threw unintended shade to Mary's glorious "April O'Neil jumpsuit" getup?

*hah* the narrator just gave the most authentic Tilly "Oh, my goodness!" (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 9
(view spoiler)[All this sneaking around ship unnoticed is bringing back some Binti vibes. Loved how the focus suddenly shifts to a completely another POV until tying back to Tilly - with a goddang startle, I might add.

Also, the name of this ship's engineer? I'm not sure how the spelling of it goes, but now I am too constantly reminded of the character name from couple previous reads, which Gabi mentioned few posts ago :D (hide spoiler)]

Gabi wrote: "Mareike reg Ch 3 [spoilers removed]

I forgot: I'm listening to the audioversion (since the price of the ebook version is over my budget) and the narrator, January LaVoy, is fantastic. She gets Til..."

Chapter 3 (view spoiler)[I think things are a little more difficult in terms of the parent/child dynamic in this book. Let's discuss this more as you guys progress. (hide spoiler)]

Re: Chapter 6 (view spoiler)[I love how many different female characters we get in this book. Love. It. (hide spoiler)]

I finished earlier and along with the Saru novel, this is my favorite among the DISCO novels. I already loved Tilly before this, but I love her even more now. Especially (view spoiler)[because the novel really captures what it feels like to be an awkward teenager who hasn't quite found her niche yet. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 10
(view spoiler)[*hah* This is such a highschool drama at points: "Uhh, no, because wouldn't that be, like, murder?" just earned a lol. The delivery here is so "Mean Girls".

"I'm a big fan of mold in some circumstances" Yes! Thank you for realizing the connection here and making this point! Them mushroom experts would be wary of different forms of fungi around and their effects to the surroundings.

Hmmm... don't mind me, just getting some personal joy again, from a starship engineer particular of their tea, dreaming of quiet settlement *ahem* (hide spoiler)]

@Mareike, reg. the mother, I finished the novel, but (view spoiler)[I don't see a point where I should change my initial view of her unfitness for parenthood. She was looking for someone she could form after her own image and not for a child. A doll would have suited her better. Sorry, if I sound too harsh here, but parents like her are an absolute No-Go for me. (hide spoiler)]

I'm still not sure about my overall impression - and therefore rating - of the book. On the one hand it works as a cute coming of age book for younger readers, even without Discovery knowledge. On the other hand I had some issues with parts that seemed superimposed to me. (view spoiler)[ A minor one is the astromycology. What does this have to do with engineering? Stamets brought those subjects together with his sporedrive, but per se astromycology has nothing to do with engineering, so this looked quite forced to me. And considering what Tilly told Stamets in the series when she tried to coax him out of his coma, she was still mixing up basics of mycology which did not sound like this had been a major interest of hers before - okay … that's nitpicking, sorry.

What I really didn't like, though, was the part on the planet with the First Contact. I can appreciate the idea of bringing Tilly's schoolwork into the field, but not like this. The whole scene sounded like an afterthought, too rushed, too out-of-nowhere. For my liking of the book it would have been much better without this chapter. (hide spoiler)]

On the level of a character study for Tilly the novel worked very well. Often when I read Star Trek novels I can't find the characters I Iearned to love in the written words, but here it was Tilly through and through. Plus the narrator of the audiobook did a brilliant job with the special Tillyness.

@Jemppu: :) (view spoiler)[ High school drama is a good one. I would categorize the novel as YA (hide spoiler)]

Gabi wrote: "@Mareike, reg. the mother, I finished the novel, but [spoilers removed]

I'm still not sure about my overall impression - and therefore rating - of the book. On the one hand it works as a cute comi..."

Oh, I agree (view spoiler)[where Tilly's Mom is concerned. Her "parenting" is shit. For some reason, I thought you meabt Tilly's father in your earlier post, and I think with him things are different. Once he gets involved, he's doing a good job, I think. (hide spoiler)]

As for the astromycology, I liked that (view spoiler)[Tilly had a hunch that there was more to it and that there might be some connection to engineering. Imagine how excited she must have been when someone showed her Paul's and Straal's work. If she's interested in both fields and in patterns, why wouldn't she start thinking about both of them together? Sometimrs a eeird hunch is sll you start with, after all.
But I can also see why that feels like a reach, since it's not really explained how she gets there. (hide spoiler)]

Gabi wrote: "@Jemppu: :) [spoilers removed]"

Yup. Doubtfully would have picked this up, if there wasn't a fleeting chance of a presence of certain someone.

(view spoiler)[Gabi wrote: "...And considering what Tilly told Stamets in the series when she tried to coax him out of his coma, she was still mixing up basics of mycology which did not sound like this had been a major interest of hers before - okay … that's nitpicking, sorry...."

No, I don't think that's nitpicky at all. That's paying attention to detail and knowing your subject. Absolutely agree, that there's a drift there with the show. And I too, much prefer the show's implication of less mycology oriented Tilly. Though, some interest must've been there, for Stamets to pick her. Or then astromycology is just that specialist subject, that even little knowledge of it will earn one credibility? ...or was she just that persuasive/relentless? ;D (hide spoiler)]

Oh, and I wonder, if one should go re-watch the Short Trek "Runway" after this - (view spoiler)[was there any references to this incident here? More than the overall 'stealthy commiseration' perhaps, which this book well explains. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 11
(view spoiler)[Love, how Tilly thinks all of her new acquaintances as "friends" from the get go.

"Prosaically" - just learned a new word. Almost thought they had managed to slip in a brand name *hah* (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 12
(view spoiler)[Descriptions of Tilly's grandma - the wealthy Federation lady visiting an 'off-world'- as the "grandest this world had ever seen" (paraphrased) by the crew of Dorothy Garrett* feel they have worryingly 'imperialistic' undertones.

*) absolutely love the name - for the sound of it alone.

Hmm. Another 'our time' reference with the "Man Who Fell to Earth" - is it about 'side story' authors' hesitancy to invent new stuff to the 'actual' lore? Or their right to? That's what it is for a fan creator (wishing to respect the established universe - otherwise of course for fan creation there's absolutely no limits), but surely, someone hired to come up with stories for the franchise should have some freedom to at least suggest things to be added to the canon - to be approved by some 'higher authority' perhaps. Or did they, and stuff just doesn't get approved? It's bit like how all the character in all the TV series/movies are always reading the same newspaper and watching old movies (though those are about copyrights, but equally silly/limiting within the context of the worlds). (hide spoiler)]

Chapter... 14?
(view spoiler)[*hah* Dang! I'm so on board with Holden on my self-discipline. Mucho procrastination. (hide spoiler)]



Final thoughts? As a whole this may have been a bit too much of the YA flavor for me, but then again, I doubt I'm of the target group's age. If this is a way to get young girls invested on Star Trek - bring it on!

Though, I have to wonder, since it's been pointed out already: the divide of sexes between the cast here. (view spoiler)[Was there total of one male here? Who, incidentally, ended up being one of my favorite characters of the book - their maleness obviously being irrelevant, and their good humored, nonchalant personality the fascination (other was 'Sallah', the strong willed, tea sipping, retirement dreamer - how ever you spell their name. Both no-nonsense, get-things-done, low-drama characters (on the outside anyway - would love to read of any inside struggle of these strong individuals)).

Just questioning what kind of message will it convey - if it will provide any tangible example for those paying attention - when for a teenage girl to thrive, her world needs to be completely void of males. And the only male (??) she does interact with is there as her indispensable emotional crutches. (hide spoiler)]

@Jemppu: reg ch 12, agreed (view spoiler)[ about the cringeworhtyness of the wording. That's a point, why I always had my issues with Starfleet. There is so often the we-are-the-morale-top undertone in the series. (and the reason why I fell for DS9, cause there the agricultural nobody planet Bajor doesn't fall for the high-and-mighty of the Feds)

As for the references. This has nothing to do with authors of the novels, cause it is exactly the same in the TV series. The references to books and plays and movies are nearly always Terran and our time/earlier. It is as if nowadays folks always listen to music from the 18th century and read literature from that time. (hide spoiler)]

Regarding the sexes - (view spoiler)[ It is noticeable, cause we're not used to it, especially not in Star Trek, which started as an all-men-club with the token female. I like McCormack's approach (hide spoiler)]

@Gabi (view spoiler)[Gabi wrote: "...It is noticeable, cause we're not used to it, especially not in Star Trek, which started as an all-men-club with the token female. I like McCormack's approach..."

Not a question of if it's noticeable, but is it all that good? (and who's used to it and who's not is a matter of personal views as well, I'd say).

I get how many - like you, as you say - might find it great and just for women to 'finally have the same standing' in a story as men have had so many years. But for me it's just as bad as the other way around: just as segregating of sexes. Not really a solution to a problem, but a 'lash back', akin to "now it's our turn"! ...to be guilty of the same as the other party was before?

I'd find it much more appealing an approach if the sexes could live in a same universe, without any one of them having to have to be pushed aside, demoted to the position of a "token other sex" with a rare appearance.

Especially in Trek, which supposedly prides itself of tolerance and mutually peaceful existence.

(irl, I'd rather we'd be rid of the gender divide as well, obviously, but which in general seems but a dream as long as people find such strong pride on things like "powerful female" or "powerful male" figures. Imho)

Gabi wrote: "...This has nothing to do with authors of the novels, cause it is exactly the same in the TV series. The references to books and plays and movies are nearly always Terran and our time/earlier. It is as if nowadays folks always listen to music from the 18th century and read literature from that time...."

Yes, it is prevalent in all forms of entertainment, but what I'm wondering is why that is. I doubt all these creators could be as unimaginative as not to come up with some imagined productions between now and then. As a creative, that feels like a grand opportunity to be, well, creative! Thus it kinda reeks of some outside 'force' requesting otherwise. "Kids these days will relate to Bowie, right? Why not just use him, instead of coming up with some 2240's/-50's boy band no-one has any clue about"... words from an executive, who 'knows better'...

just one thought play <:D And with multiple creatives, there's bound to be multiple reasons. Not one universal "why". Just curious how so many seem to indeed rely on existing phenomena to fill their universes. Perhaps to 'ground' things to our contemporary Earthly things, for us to swallow them more easily? Which is just silly - and really stands out - among all the transporters and starships.

That said: the Kasseelian opera is one exemplary exception 👍 (and there are others in the Treklore too, but there could be so much more!) (hide spoiler)]

@Jemppu (view spoiler)[ I don't think that it is a matter of perspective. You saw it yourself, you were commenting on the fact that there was only one man in the novel. Well, who comments, when you have a male-dominated novel with only one female? Rarely see this (with the exception of ppl who are into feminism), there it is usually taken as normal. So it is nice to see the other way round and it would be nice to see this taken as normal as well.
But I can see what you mean. I have the same feeling with the use of pronouns at the moment, when I see myself being referred as "they".

As for the contemporary literature/music. I would love to know the reason why for this. It is something that irks me. For me most negative example in this case was in DS9 where a Changeling and a Bajoran use a holosuite program for their spare-time - and "of course" select a Terran Sinatra copy singer. Nope! (hide spoiler)]

I'm with Gabi on this one. (view spoiler)[most people would not bat an eye if the novel was predominantly male. It just stands out more because we're sadky still not used to having so many female characters in SciFi and/or Star Trek.

I also think thst in a fictional universe like the Star Trek one, which is said to have ivercome discrimination based on gender, why shouldn't it be entirely possible for Tilly to run into that many women? No discrimination (direct or indirect) means more women around, means more chance for Tilly to run into them. So, I think we maybe need to distinguish netween rhe story world and the real world here?

For me, personally, who has been incredibly inspired by the women in my life (and the occasional man
), it was a pleasure to watch Tilly meet so many different wo.en and learn from them. Especially because that balances out the mother/daughter dynamic we get with her and Siobhan, which is at least a bit of a trope. (Though one based in reality.)

And I think that both her father and Quinn are important for Tilly and her development because they're supportive of her and what she wabts to do. Same for the egineering team on the Dotty (damn right, I'll call her that) which isn't all-female. So, while the novel emphasizes the importance of female rolemodels for her, it also gives us some pretty good male rolemodels, I think.

So, I get where you are coming from, Jemppu, but I also have to say: I wish teenage me had had a novel like this. (hide spoiler)]