Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Here are the nominees for our second read of 2019 from the Random Book Generator™ listed in a fully capricious and whimsical order. Feel free to discuss and lobby for your favorites here. The poll will be posted next week.

1. The Custom of the Country, by Edith Wharton

2. Doctor Zhivago, by Boris Pasternak

3. The Age of Innocence, by Edith Wharton

4. Ethics, by Baruch Spinoza

5. Fathers and Sons, by Ivan Turgenev

6. The Descent of Man by Charles Darwin

7. As I Lay Dying, by William Faulkner

8. Democracy in America, by Alexis de Tocqueville

Two Edith Whartons? How come? I guess that's what randomness gets you.

All told, I would be happy with any of these.

I'm up for Ethics, but Pasternak and Turgenev work too. I don't know if I can handle Faulkner, but I'll try. Down with Democracy :)

Wow, what an intriguing assortment! I love Wharton, have always wanted to read Spinoza, and de Tocqueville seems terribly apropos at the moment lol

I've never made Wharton's acquaintance, so I can't say anything one way or the other about her work, but the others all look good. I haven't read Turgenev in years, but remember liking Fathers and Sons, and I've only read de Tocqueville in parts and pieces. Pasternak interests me as well, as I've only read his poetry (and seen the 1965 movie).

I am most interested in Pasternak or Turgenev, with a leaning toward the former. On the other hand...Wharton might be of interest too...hmm.....oh, dear..will continue to ponder.

Patrice wrote: "i have always wanted to read democracy in america."

Me too!! It's been at the top of my Library to-read list for quite some time. This would be just the motivation I need.

I'm on a russian novelist kick so like Turgenov. But all these sounds good. And I too have wanted to read Democracy in American in full.

Hello, everyone!

I'm most interested in reading Democracy in America.

My second choice is Doctor Zhivago. (This would be a reread, but as it's been nearly a decade I'd like to revisit.)

The rest, in order of preference:
Fathers and Sons
The Age of Innocence
The Descent of Man
Ethics
As I Lay Dying

The only selection that isn't on my to-read shelf is The Custom of the Country. I'll read any of the other seven along with the group.

Side note: The end of October and November of last year were terrible for reading, for me (life has a way of getting in the way of this beloved hobby sometimes). I was reading Beyond Good and Evil and following group discussions until chapter 5 (and enjoying it a great deal), but a lot happened during a short period of time and I was unable to keep up. I think I can finish BGAE by February 19ᵗʰ-ish (I know there will be an interim read as well). I've been slowly chipping away at it along with catching up with other reading commitments.

I've also added Sir Gawain and the Green Knight to my to_read_next shelf, because this group has inspired me to read it sooner rather than later.

Something to consider:

There are lots of other GR groups that would take up Edith Wharton or Faulkner- I think I am in one group which is doing As I Lay Dying even as we speak (so to speak).

Spinoza and De Tocqueville would be the 'rarer' choices.

Christopher wrote: "Something to consider:

There are lots of other GR groups that would take up Edith Wharton or Faulkner- I think I am in one group which is doing As I Lay Dying even as we speak (so to speak).

Spin..."
Agreed. Good point.

Are there any preferred translations of Democracy in America?

Beven, Mansfield & Winthrop, Reeve, Lawrence, others?

David wrote: "Here are the nominees for our second read of 2019 from the Random Book Generator™ listed in a fully capricious and whimsical order. Feel free to discuss and lobby for your favorites here. The poll ..."

Either Edith Wharton would be different from my usual authors. I haven't read her work yet.

I just started Light in August by Faulkner and it is such heavy material I would vote against As I Lay Dying to read right now.

Father and Sons is on my Kindle already waiting to be read so I could go with that also.

Darwin least interests me out of this list.

I really like Turgenev and it would also fit very well into my reread goals of this year. I also think it would be interesting to read it with this group

Further I'd like de Toqueville (I remember reading bits of it) and Doctor Zhivago (as I haven't read this one at all).

I really like most of the choices though

Not voting, as I won't be reading along, but am suggesting that you consider Democracy in America. As I recall there are two parts: one before and other after the Civil War. I liked volume 1 the best, but is best read with an understanding of what was happening in France. (I read without any such understanding.) I think it may help inform about the divided America that is still (very!) visible in U.S. politics.

David wrote: "Are there any preferred translations of Democracy in America?"

I can strongly recommend the Nolla/Schleifer two-volume critical edition. It's an affordable but durable and handsome set. The size makes it look intimidating, but the annotations add up to a full commentary and are very helpful.

Cphe wrote: "Also Doctor Zhivago. . .I remember hearing/humming to myself "Lara's Theme" throughout the read."

Not to bash the book, because the book is always better than the movie and I haven't read it yet, the ending of the movie reminded me of a Benny Hill sketch; [queue "Yakety Sax"]

Democracy in America is at the top of my list. BTW, I don’t get the reference above to the Civil War connection. Per Wikipedia (an iffy source I know) Democracy in America was published in 1835 (volume. 1) and 1840 (volume 2), so both volumes were published twenty years before the American Civil War.

After mulling the options over, Democracy in America is my first pick, Espinoza second and Fathers and Sons Third.

David wrote: "Cphe wrote: "Also Doctor Zhivago. . .I remember hearing/humming to myself "Lara's Theme" throughout the read."

Not to bash the book, because the book is always better than the movie and I haven't ..."

As an American, accustomed to our culture under the U.S. Constitution, it is almost impossible for me to contemplate the danger of publishing the story of "Doctor Zhivago." I found it insightful to scan Pasternak's Wiki entry just now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_P...

I did not realize Pasternak's family's close linkages with Tolstoy and his adherents. I am reminded again of my ignorance of Russian politics -- most certainly the rub between seemingly circles of dissidents and champions of Communism. It makes me wonder how minds coming from those experiences are influenced in their views the U.S. today.

It's odd that we have nothing earlier than Spinoza. Perhaps there should be distribution requirements on our selections--maybe one Greek, one Roman, one medieval, one Renaissance, one each 17th, 18th, 19th centuries.

Susan wrote: "Democracy in America is at the top of my list. BTW, I don’t get the reference above to the Civil War connection. Per Wikipedia (an iffy source I know) ... both volumes were published twenty years before the American Civil War."


I will assume Wikipedia is much better than my memory! I should have fact checked myself! Thank you, Susan, for clarifying the timeline.

I just looked up my Goodreads "review" of Volume 1 and repeat the important part here:

Absolutely must read for anyone of any political persuasion. Helps explain why U.S. is what it is today. Some of his predictions were wrong but the historical analysis based on his interviews and research seems sound. I can't express how important I think this book is to understanding the U.S. in 2013.

In 2018, when the US seems further adrift and divided, it is an even more important read, IMHO.

Democracy in America has been on my to-read list for many years. I would look forward to reading it with this group. Faulkner is always a challenging read but well worth it.
I don't see the same potential for an interesting discussion with the Wharton titles or Pasternak. I'm concerned we could get bogged down with Spinoza and that folks might well drop out of the conversation.

Yeah, well, there are some very DRY parts of de la Democratie, too. I would think the chance of losing participants was at least as likely with that one.

Christopher wrote: "Yeah, well, there are some very DRY parts of de la Democratie, too. "

Fair enough. I know Democracy in America only by reputation.

There are two books in a set I have already read: Democracy in America and Fathers and Sons, Though I am not to discourage anyone from reading (both books are great), they are nowhere in my to re-read list.
A for the rest, my favourite is Faulkner - I have always enjoyed reading his book.
Spinoza and Pasternak - I suppose the only chance for me to read them is with this group. 
My friend (with a good taste) stated that Doctor Zhivago is the most overrated Russian book of the 20th century. Though I had not read it, I tried to defend the novel. But produced only one argument, ‘But the lyrics are good’.
Other books do not attract me. However, after reading Phatastes, I am ready to be surprised in a good way.

I'd really love to read Doctor Zhivago or Father and Sons as I'm also trying to work my way through a Top 100 list and 1001 books to read before you die.

I read As I Lay Dying this month and I didn't find it particularly difficult/heavy. This was my first Faulkner so maybe his other work is different, but I quite enjoyed it.

Alexey wrote: "My friend (with a good taste) stated that Doctor Zhivago is the most overrated Russian book of the 20th century...."

The gist of her/his reasoning?

"...epic tale about the effects of the Russian Revolution and its aftermath on a bourgeois family..."

It is certainly one of the most recently published books on our book shelves -- I haven't compared thoroughly, but it was first published 1957 according to its Goodreads entry, 1987 in the Soviet Union. It was at least a significant factor in Pasternak receiving the Nobel Prize in 1958 for his work.

Roger wrote: ".... Perhaps there should be distribution requirements on our selections--maybe one Greek, one Roman, one medieval, one Renaissance, one each 17th, 18..."

And certainly other diversity parameters could be pumped into a new random selection generator. (Are you volunteering, Roger?) Fun discussion on the topic here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... (eg., msgs. 10, 15, 16, 22, among others).

Although a given period of selections can be "lumpy", does anyone perceive there has been a drift of which we should be aware? (I presume something is troubling you, Roger?)

Lavan wrote: "...The only selection that isn't on my to-read shelf is The Custom of the Country. I'll read any of the other seven along with the group...."

Not sure why TCotC is not on your to-read-shelf, Lavan. (Perhaps you have already read it?)

I am currently tackling the thing, despite my issues with its leading character Undine (LA Review of Books has a review comparing her with #1), at least in part because the Goodreads entry for The Custom of the Country states: "Considered by many to be her masterpiece...." and it has been awhile since I have read Edith Wharton.

Haven't figured out who those "many" are that consider it her masterpiece, but I must say that I think it could be interesting to read alongside Tocqueville as one considered the impact of the political and industrial forces exploding in the U.S. on the lives of individual men and women. Wharton, like Henry James and Tocqueville, leads her reader to consider whether and how an American persona emerged differing from Europe, but she does it largely down close in the family, cultural, and social arenas.

This is from a review in the Guardian by Margaret Drabble:

"This novel is full of brilliantly perceptive comments on family and marriage, on women's education, on American customs and European customs, and on the influence of American capitalism and commerce upon American culture. Where Henry James dimly suggests, Wharton analyses and illustrates. She knows the world in a way that few novelists do, and it is a privilege to see the world in her company."

https://www.theguardian.com/books/200...

As many of you probably know, Dame Drabble is editor of The Oxford Companion to English Literature. She apparently bought "Custom" in a Newark bookstore as plane reading on her return from a book festival in Mexico.

Lily wrote: "Alexey wrote: "My friend (with a good taste) stated that Doctor Zhivago is the most overrated Russian book of the 20th century...."

The gist of her/his reasoning?

"...epic tale about the effects..."

The gist is:
The novel as a literary work is not a masterpiece (I have not read it and could not agree or disagree with any of his arguments about it and only vaguely remember them).
The only reason that the book got its prominence is the political struggle around its publication and then Nobel Prize.

I read Zhivago some 40 years ago, I remember that Pasternak represented to me all that I found disturbing in Tolstoy (lack of compassion, essentially) without the latter's literary brilliance. I have no need to check if this would still be my opinion. Turgenev I do recommend (though I think his novels fall somewhat short of his short fiction), but I won't reread F&S presently.

It would like to tackle Democracy in America with this group (skipping a paragraph here, a chapter there, maybe). Anyway, how often has the RandomMG suggested this title already - isn't it about time to humour it? Wharton would also be great. Variation in fare may enhance the number of eaters, and it certainly makes the dining more varied and interesting. In this spirit I might even consider Faulkner.

I'm going to pulling for Democracy as well--I've had it on my shelves for a long time, and it's probably only by being selected by one of my GR groups that's actually going to get me to read it. That was the case with The Nicomachean Ethics a few months ago.

I've read enough Wharton not to be much interested in another one, and I've also read Zhivago and As I Lay Dying. (And I'd probably agree with Zhivago being overrated. I wasn't crazy about it, but YMMV.)

If not de Tocqueville, then Turgenev.

Cphe wrote: "My personal preference would be for Spinoza.

It does look as though Democracy in America will carry the day though.

I don't know a lot (if anything) as to American political life."

One thing I know about democracy is you never know until the votes are counted!

I don't think we can, or should, avoid politics simply because we live in politically charged times. The rules of the discussion are pretty clear, and the moderators will hold everyone to them:

1. Disagreement is fine. Disparagement is not. Be positive and friendly. Disagree without being disagreeable!

2. Vigorous, healthy discussion is encouraged. Personal attacks or "put-downs" will not be tolerated.

3. NO SPOILERS. None. Period.

4. Have fun.

Cphe wrote: "Roger wrote: "It's odd that we have nothing earlier than Spinoza. Perhaps there should be distribution requirements on our selections--maybe one Greek, one Roman, one medieval, one Renaissance, one..."

I am on the side of random selection. If we agree with a set of books, nominations are pulled from, we must agree that random way of choosing them is the easiest and fairest.

The only other way, as far as I understand, is to complement the chance with some rules of rotation of time, genres, country, etc. I suppose it makes no one happier, but makes the work of moderators more complicated and difficult, and adds more grumbles among members. 

Patrice wrote: "i really want to read democracy but its going to be kind of hard not to get political about current affairs. politics can rip the group apart in a heartbeat."

Tocqueville may yet surprise you, Patrice. DIA is not about current affairs, it invites us to take a step back and reflect on our assumptions concerning democracy. Tocqueville was first of all an aristocrat, shocked by the outrages of the French Revolution, but at the same time convinced that some form of democracy was unavoidable. His main concern in DIA seems to be how to blend democracy with his own aristocratic ideal of excellency. Or, how to avoid the mindlessness of the mob and the paternalism of bureaucracy. For sure, the old Greeks would have been very interested in Tocqueville’s analysis of Jacksonian society!

What worries me, though, is the vastness of the book - 992 pages in the Penguin edition. This group doesn't do abridgements, it is not for wimps, I know. But I admit that (retired or not) I'm tempted by an abridged edition.

Lily wrote: "Lavan wrote: "...The only selection that isn't on my to-read shelf is The Custom of the Country. I'll read any of the other seven along with the group...."

Not sure why TCotC is not on your to-rea..."

No, I've not yet read The Custom of the Country. I didn't mean to imply that I will never read it.

At present, I have four of Wharton's works queued: The House of Mirth, The Age of Innocence, Ethan Frome & Selected Stories (includes the short stories: The Pretext, Afterward, The Legend, and Xingu), and Summer, but I may add TCOTC in the future.

Thank you kindly for your insight on this novel, Lily. I will think further on adding it to my ever-growing to-read shelf given your recommendation.

POLL IS UP!

Voting started on: Jan 30, 2019 12:00AM PST
Ends at: Feb 06, 2019 11:59PM PST

https://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/1...

Lavan wrote: "Thank you kindly for your insight on this novel, Lily. I shall think further on adding it to my ever-growing to-read shelf given your recommendation...."

Lavan, please consider my comments as just that, comments, rather than specifically a "recommendation." Thank you for sharing why The Custom of the Country is not currently on your tbr shelf!

I wondered if the mood of the discussion (it trends to the political questions) may predict the poll. As it goes so far, the answer is yes.

I see Spinoza's Ethics has gotten no votes so far. Having just read The Weight of Ink by Rachel Kadish (I haven't reviewed it yet.), I find this to be another one of the books on this list to be of possible interest. As background to TWoI, I was directed to these videos:

Whether or not you vote for Spinoza here, you may find them of interest, especially the round table, which discusses current interest in his work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v29FV...

These two feature Steven Nadler, who is author of a biography of Spinoza:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIYOC... (~10 minutes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_wLD...

Cphe wrote: "I'm going to post this here......

I'm in two minds regarding Democracy in America (which looks a shoe in BTW)

It's going to be a huge investment and it looks political, to have political componen..."

Democracy in America is a huge investment and worth it. As for applicability, my opinion and a rough one, that the first volume is primarily of historical interest, but the second is applicable to any more or less democratic country.

Cphe wrote: "I don't know if it is a work that will be applicable to me in Australia even though we are a democracy with our own issues at present.."

DiA is about America (the USA, that is), but not specifically addressed to Americans. I suppose Tocqueville was writing primarily for a French public. But to become a classic DiA had to have a much wider relevancy. Discussing maybe questions like "can democracy survive if the public has no interest in politics?"

The material Tocqueville uses to illustrate his discours are closer to our doorstep (regardless where we live), but the questions he tries to answer may not be that different from those in Plato's Republic (at least that's something I would like to discuss).

@28 Christopher wrote: "Yeah, well, there are some very DRY parts of de la Democratie, too. I would think the chance of losing participants was at least as likely with that one."

@57 Alexey wrote: "Democracy in America is a huge investment and worth it. As for applicability, my opinion and a rough one, that the first volume is primarily of historical interest, but the second is applicable to any more or less democratic country."

@58 Wendel wrote: "...the questions he tries to answer may not be that different from those in Plato's Republic (at least that's something I would like to discuss)."

If it is Tocqueville that we end up reading, can we hear those of you who might have good suggestions on how to break it up for discussion (~900 pp, 34 hrs on Audible)?

Patrice wrote: "everyman had banned current politics because it had destroyed our previous group. i am certainly willing to try, with trepidation! you keep us in line!😉"

If the group votes to read Democracy in America, banning current politics is something worth considering. I agree with David that we should not try to be politics-free as politics have been an important aspect of American life. That said, it's really not possible to have a sense of perspective on the politics of the moment.

Lily wrote: "If it is Tocqueville that we end up reading, can we hear those of you who might have good suggestions on how to break it up for discussion (~900 pp, 34 hrs on Audible)?"

There are 89 chapters by my count, many quite short, most readable in isolation. If we did it in 12 weeks, that would require an average pace of 7-8 chapters per week, which I'd say is reasonable, but 15 weeks would be more relaxed.

As I understand it, Tocqueville is hardly read at all in France.
American sociologists revere him, or used to.

Cphe wrote: "I don't know if it is a work that will be applicable to me in Australia. . ."

I think you will be fine. I expect DIA to go something like this:
(with apologies to Monty Python]

Alexis de Tocqueville: 'Evening, squire!

Squire: (stiffly) Good evening.

Alexis de Tocqueville: Is, uh,...Is your democracy a goer, eh? Know whatahmean, know whatahmean, nudge nudge, know whatahmean, say no more?

Squire: I, uh, I beg your pardon?

Alexis de Tocqueville: Your, uh, your democracy, does she go, eh, does she go, eh?

Squire: (flustered) Well, she sometimes 'goes', yes.

Alexis de Tocqueville: Aaaaaaaah bet she does, I bet she does, say no more, say no more, know whatahmean, nudge nudge?

Squire: (confused) I'm afraid I don't quite follow you.

Alexis de Tocqueville: Follow me. Follow me. That's good, that's good! A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat!

Squire: Are you, uh,...are you writing something?

Alexis de Tocqueville: WRITING! Very good, very good! Ay? Ay? Ay? (pause) Oooh! Ya wicked Ay! Wicked Ay! Oooh hooh! Say No MORE!

Squire: Well, I, uh....

Alexis de Tocqueville: Is, your uh, is your democracy constitutional, ay?

Squire: Um, she likes constitutions, yes!

Alexis de Tocqueville: I bet she does, I bet she does!

Squire: As a matter of fact she's very fond of conventions.

Alexis de Tocqueville: 'Oo isn't? Likes games, eh? Knew she would. Likes games, eh? She's been around a bit, been around?

Squire: She has traveled, yes. She's from Philadelphia. (pause)

Alexis de Tocqueville: SAY NO MORE!!

Alexis de Tocqueville: Philadephia, saynomore, saynomore, saynomore, squire!

Squire: I wasn't going to!

Alexis de Tocqueville: Oh! Well, never mind. Dib dib? Is your uh, is your democracy interested in....Congress, ay? 'legislation, ay', he asked him knowlingly?

Squire: Congress?

Alexis de Tocqueville: vote vote, grin grin, wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more?

Squire: Congressional votes, eh?

Alexis de Tocqueville: They could be, they could be taken in congress. congressional, you know, congressional voting?

Squire: I'm afraid we don't have a perfect bicameral.

Alexis de Tocqueville: Oh. (leeringly) Still, mooooooh, ay? Mwoohohohohoo, ay? Hohohohohoho, ay?

Squire: Look... are you insinuating something?

Alexis de Tocqueville: Oh, no, no, no...yes.

Squire: Well?

Alexis de Tocqueville: Well, you're a man of the world, squire.

Squire: Yes...

Alexis de Tocqueville: I mean, you've been around a bit, you know, like, you've, uh.... You've 'done it'....

Squire: What do you mean?

Alexis de Tocqueville: Well, I mean like,....you've SLEPT, with a democracy....

Squire: Yes....

Alexis de Tocqueville: What's it like?

Lily wrote: "@28 Christopher wrote: "Yeah, well, there are some very DRY parts of de la Democratie, too. I would think the chance of losing participants was at least as likely with that one."

@57 Alexey wrote:..."

Lily, I have voted against Democracy in America (a book) and still hope we end up reading something else. I finished the book last year, and it takes almost a year with breaks and interruption and I am not in a mood to re-read. I supposed some chapters worth revisiting, but doubt that book as a whole worth it.

Reading the first volume in parallel with Bagehot’s English Constitution, I noticed de Tocqueville and Bagehot praise political system (presidential and parliamentary respectively) they wrote about. In compare you may see, how both biased and absolutely uncritical in their adherence to the preferred system.